One purchase I'm pondering is a Charles Daly Diamond grade 10 gauge. Who has experience with them and what are your thoughts in general on them? Hunting experience with them is also welcome. Thanks!

Great guns, who made this Charles Daly?

Is it pre-WWI ?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=495994#Post495994

I'm interested in the Prussian guns.

Are you looking at a hammer or hammerless Daly 10? One key item to keep in mind is that Schoverling, Daly, and Gales sold their guns by model number. Depending when your gun was made, "diamond quality" could indicate one of up to six separate models. There are significant differences between between a Daly "diamond quality' model 225 and a Daly "diamond quality" model 375 for example. There was a big difference in price when it was sold and there is a big difference now.

If you provide a serial number of the gun you are lookingn at ("X"ing out the last digit is fine) and details on the engraving (photos would be best), we should be able to get within a year or two on the production date as well as info on the specific model you are looking at.

In terms of hunting, I use with my vintage Dalys 10s regularly to shoot duck and goose with good success. My Dalys 10's all have 2.875" chambers so I shoot RST loads.

If you are interested in Prussian Dalys, I'd recommend the Prussian Daly Almanac available on the German Gun Collector website.

Good luck.

I think you'll find that the Prussian Diamond grades are all of outstanding quality whether they were made by Lindner or another of the Suhl craftsmen. The workmanship on both the outside and inside have never been surpassed by anyone! The Lindner made guns are the most sought after and are usually identified by the maker's touchmark on the barrels immediately in front of the underlug. It will be two crossed pistols below either a crown or the letters HAL. These guns always bring a premium. IMO no top London gun ever made was superior in craftsmanship to the top Daly's.

Brian, I have some experience with Lindner Dalys. I've owned three, restocked three, have another to do, and have handled maybe ten more. They are, IMO, some of the finest box lock shotguns ever produced. The metal work fit and finish are top flight. I will post a picture of the internal finish of one that I owned that was not a Diamond grade just for reference.

It's becoming hard to find a Lindner Daly that has not been molested in some way i.e. restocked poorly, sleeved poorly and then horror of horrors had the rib engraving done BACKWARDS - really? I could add to this list but why!

If you find a good one buy it!

I bought one from Doug. It dropped the jaw of everyone who held her and solicited a desire to buy her from everyone who shot her.

Between Lindner's work and Doug's, she is a thing of beauty.

Maybe Doug could post a photo of her for you. I can't from this tablet.

Ah! I figured out how to put a photo up.



I don't have a good shot of Doug's stock work. Doug help!

I bought one a short while ago. 12 Gauge hammerless from between 1900 and 1905. Had a few issues so it is having some careful restoration and repair work done by a member here, CJO. Can't wait to shoot it.

Hi Bob, This is the best I have thanks to Photoshop (jerks)!

That "Turc Extra" extra-fine etched 4 Iron Turkish "Star" pattern damascus may be my all-time favorite, and I would STILL VERY much like a full size high resolution image for the Lindner Daly Damascus album on the website
https://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20948056
revdoc2@cox.net

Educate me on one like this? I have no personal experience with them and I do not have a good handle on their values but I like this configuration. I would like a 30".

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100930887

Upper & lower scears & country of origin stamp so 2nd series & manufactured in the early 1890s.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the reply. Estimated value? I don't see enough of them to know and would like to have a better feel before going to Vegas next month.

Some high art, probably by Hugo Kolb. Composed stock or similar makes me pause. Either original finish or a very old refinish. 10 bore, so I would say Artemis is dreaming a bit. But about any Lindner - Daly w/ art is highly coveted.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for your reply. I'm just not familiar enough with Daly Diamond grades. I'm curious to hear the forum's thoughts on it.

This article is interesting...http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-charles-daly/

Is this the Prussian Daly almanac mentioned in this thread?

Also, what does "composed stock" mean? I'm not familiar with that term.

Not sure. But either purchase the publication of GGCA or join GGCA & publish. Dietrich's site, of which Mr. Schuknecht is the custodian, has some early info & this BBS has several lengthy threads:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=466899&page=1

Pattern Clunny:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post140144

Mother of Lindner-Daly threads:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=162445&page=1

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Stock looks odd..... Need a wood guy to have a gander @ it to see if it has issues. I'll see if I can get Wakefield to send an image of the marks on the tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here is my 325 Diamond Daly rescue. Before and after pics. Lots of sins committed on his gun over the years, fair sleeve job, someone attempted to jewel polish the table and flats, alost losing the Lindner provenance. Gun is #993, so pretty early hammerless. Original straight stock configuration. Though certainly not original, still a stunning example of gunmakers art. Stock extension by Mark Larsen. It is an ejector gun, sends empties10’back! Weighs a bit over 5#’s

lindner diamond

I saw those photos in a Google search today actually! Thanks for your post.

Thanks Raimey for any assist you can offer.

Forgot to say that it is a 20 bore

The problem with archived threads is that most of the photos are now missing thanks to the pure genius (NOT!) of Photobucket. Their policies have destroyed the value of many forum topics on many forums. I went to all of those links above and read through a few pages but can't follow much of it due to the missing photos that are being referenced.

I found this one from auction 2 years ago, which sold for 4k.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/65/1526/daly-charles--diamond-grade

Re: the Daly offered by Artemis-
Among my concerns other than the spliced stock , would be the cyl/cyl ( cut barrels?) chokes ( the description indicates full/full inthe title, but lists open chokes in the bullet points description- which one is correct?) , the 3/4" of cast ( unusual) and a weight of only 7.8 #s? I've never seen a 10 g Prussian Daly that light- perhaps built on a 12g frame? Was there such a thing as a " featherweight " 10 ga ever recorded? Maybe the printed weight is an error.
The description indicates ejectors, without photos of the barrel breeches to confirm, I would doubt this 10 g has ejectors as the " eyes" are missing on the forearm.
I would want to see the current barrel dimensions at the very least.
I have had a few Diamond grade Daly's in my hands and this one seems unusual.
If the open chokes are correct, you need a heavy quail gun & and shoot waterfowl close over decoys, this may be the one for you.
Best Regards,
JBP

Good points JBP. I thought these 30" guns weighed about 8 lbs? I remember that's what Ross Seyfried's example weighed. I wondered about that stock and now I understand what was said earlier about it being "composed". I also wondered about the ejectors.

Ok, so that's maybe not the best example and it seems overpriced. What is the price range for a nice (not mint) Prussian Daly Diamond grade 10 gauge...$4-5k?

For what it's worth, my 12 gauge Lindner Daly has 30" barrels, choked extra full, an uncut stock with an LOP of 14 1/4". It weights in at exactly 7 pounds, 8 ounces. Barrels weigh 3 pounds 10 ounces.

That's good to know. Thanks. Could I see any photos of your Daly 12 gauge? Was this Diamond grade?

Not only Daly 10 gauges can be in the 7# range. I have a Jeffery hammer gun with the Dougal Lockfast action that weighs under 7.5#.

Thanks Daryl. What's the barrel length on your Jeffery 10 gauge?

Barrel length is 28 1/8" . Length is original. I carry it on upland hunting where I usually use a 12 bore. It is a pinfire by Richard Jeffery , using the Dougal Lockfast patent.

The weight of the gun is not out of line with other Daly hammerless 10s. I have a two Daly hammmerless 10s, both with 30" tubes. The diamond quality gun is a tank at almost 11 lbs and the other is just a hair over 8 lbs.

JB hits the other items that are of concern like the stock work. As he notes, this is almost assuredly an extractor gun (no "steel eyes" on the forend) rather than an ejector gun.

Ken

Here it is. it's a Diamond Quality model 275 ejector gun:

Bryan, The gun you referenced on Guns International, IMO, has an original butt stock and forend with the exception of the addition of the wood to the comb and the wood extension. The wood in both cases is well matched just old work. When I say the butt stock is original I base that on the checkering pattern along with the shape of the drop points which are very Linder like. The checkering diamonds on Lindner guns is also peculiar in that the diamonds re almost square vs elongated diamond that we see now, there is also a slight curve to the lines instead of straight.

Until recently this was my Lindner Daly 16 gauge Diamond grade. Absolutely wonderful gun.

Joe:

I don't know why you gave up custody of that Lindner Daly 16 gauge, but I would have a hard time contemplating that you replaced it with something nicer. It's a stunning gun.

Rem

Joe, what possessed you to rid yourself of that gun? I have only sold one Lindner, the Doug Mann restoration.

Thanks for the reply and good info. Lots to learn about these guns.

Wow, that's a beautiful 16 gauge. Every nice example I see just confirms that I would like to have one...just one right?

There seems to be a reluctance to comment on pricing and values of these guns. If that's better done offline, could someone give me some value guidelines through a PM? I think the Artemis gun is priced high. The auction link I cited from 2 years ago was 4k and that looked like a nicer gun than this one. What is the approximate price range of a 10 gauge Prussian Daly diamond gun?

Thanks Canvasback for the photos. That's another nice one. I have yet to see an original diamond grade that I don't like!

Not trying to nitpick, but the term "diamond grade" is not correct. The reason that is important is that various models sold under the "diamond quality" banner differed significantly in price. Canvasback's diamond quality model 275 above, while really gorgeous, would sell (then and today) for less money than a similar condition Daly diamond quality model 375 for example. My point is, all other things being equal, I'd expect the model 375 to sell for 25% - 75% more than the model 375, even though they are both a "diamond quality" guns and marked as such on the ribs.

In terms of what can I expect to pay for a Lindner Prussian Daly diamond quality shotgun, I think your best resource is the result libraries of auction companies like James Julia and Rock Island. The libraries of past auction results are free to browse once you register. Like the rest of the vintage shotgun economic landscape, you'll see that the prices of the Daly guns vary tremendously due to things condition, gauge, dimensions, features, etc.

Due to that variability, it is difficult to put a price on what you can expect to pay. It depends on a lot of variables.
FWIW, I bought a restocked Lindner Daly diamond quality hammerless 10 for $1800 (about 10 years ago) and lost out on another (in much, much nicer condition) that went for over $8000.

Ken, that's a good point about nomenclature for Dalys.

I try to remember to use the term "Quality" rather than "Grade", but Grade is so common with so many other makes of guns, it's easy to slip up.

In a simplistic way, my understanding of the model numbers for the Diamond Quality guns from the era of my gun, just after the turn of the century, is that the opening price point is the 225 extractor while a gun like mine, a 275, is essentially the same with ejectors. Moving up to the 300's, a 325 will be an extractor gun but will have some gold inlays, while the 375 will have the ejectors. And the Regent Diamond is a model 500???

Have I got that right?

I slip up too Canvasback :-).

The model sequence you describe, 225-275-325-375-500 (regent diamond) is correct, but only for a portion of the Prussian Daly production timeline. That is why the "when" it was produced is so important when figuring out the model

For example, when SD&G introduced the the diamond quality nomenclature, there were only two diamond quality guns available, one hammerless and one hammer gun model. The hammerless model was the model 200. As the diamond quality line-up expanded and morphed over the years, some models came and went, or just became an option on the same model. For example, the only difference between the diamond quality model 255 and other diamond quality model was the choice between damascus and fluid steel barrels.

To be honest, it is really quite confusing without a cheat sheet. The reference I use is series of tables I made up years ago based on a collection of approximately 15 period SD&G catalogs. The Daly Almanac has a version of that table for reference.

Clear as mud, right?

Thanks for the clarification. I was reading late last night from this resource...
http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-charles-daly/ and there was info in it related to what you are saying about quality vs grade. It does get confusing quickly and as I understand it, there are no surviving Daly records from the Prussian period.

Ken, is the Daly Almanac the link I referenced above or is it something different? I've been on the German Hunting Guns website trying to figure that out without knowing for sure. The only Daly resources I saw on their online store were later data, not Prussian.

Also, thanks for the pricing info. I've been trying to research what the auction houses sold them for as a guide of sorts. I hope to see some Prussian Daly guns in Vegas.

I have a Daly catalog from their 88 Chambers St. address. It features the No. 500 at $650, the 275 at $450, the 185 at $275 and the 100 at $150. Also their single barrel trap, the "Sextuple" trap, the double trap, a three barrel gun in several grades and an over/under. Very interesting! Anyone estimate the date of this catalog??
Also note the 10 gauge guns were a special order.

Bryan,

Try this link - http://www.germanguns.com/der-waffenschmied.html - and look for issue #46.

The German hunting guns (germanhuntingguns.com) and German gun collector websites (germanguns.com) have similar names, but are different (long story.)


Walt,

Cool original catalog. I have the reprint but have never seen an original - nice! I don't have my reference materials in front of me, but I believe this one is circa-1930. This is post-break-up of Schoverling, Daly, and Gales. The catalog also does not contain info on the Prussian Daly rifles that arrived a few years later which sort of brackets it.

Ken

The truth? I've enjoyed the gun for many years but it mostly sat in the safe. And I've reached the age or stage in life that accumulating stuff just doesn't have the allure it once did. Finally, the buyer has had first call for it since I bought it. Seems,as though I always sell the collector guns and cherish the old worn shooters. I really enjoy finding them but these days I get more pleasure out of someone else I know buying them. (I still have my favorites though).

I just ordered it. Thanks!

What would the catalog look like from the Lindner Prussian Daly period? Are there reproductions available?

Go to Cornell Publications. They specialize in catalogue reproductions. Look up catalogues for Schoverling, Daly and Gales. More than a few to choose from.

Thanks. I figured someone had made a repro for it. I will go to Cornell.

I think this is the correct one? https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=1017

I'm educating myself prior to buying the right one and thanking everyone for their contributions.

So they have a number of them, by date. the one you linked to, one for 1903 another for 1907 and more.

And as Ken pointed out, the model line up changed with some frequency. So order them all, or understand the date range. The chart Ken posted would probably help you (along with perhaps a specific gun you are interested in), in deciding which catalogues to order.

My gun dates to approx 1904 so at some point, I'll probably order the 1903 and 1907 catalogue reprints.

At this point, I'm most interested in the pre-1900 Dalys so I ordered the 1892 catalog. I considered ordering the early 1900 reprints as well and will probably add those later. I saw 1903 and 1909 but not 1907.

I got the German Gun Collector's journal in, which was very helpful. Lots of articles by Ken! Also the repro catalog by Cornell. Also helpful.

I talked to a Daly collector last night who said most of the Prussian diamond quality 10 gauge Dalys were extractor guns and he gave me a better sense of values for them.

I did call Artemis Guns to ask about the Diamond Prussian 10 gauge I posted here earlier. There were some discrepancies in their listing, which others asked about here. It is choked full and extra full. It does have extractors. The thing I can't get past is the crazy cast off. It was heavily bent for a left eyed dominant shooter.

The search continues.