My latest V. Bernadelli S. Uberto I imported by Charles Daly has only whetted my appetite for a true "best gun". But yesterday, shooting with Bladeswitcher, I became envious of his Webley and Scott boxlock English gun, which is a very nice gun, but even his Webley is not a "best gun".

What I want, is a sound, attractive, used "best gun" , that is:

1. A sidelock

2. Made to very high, hand made standards

3. Is a light game gun of approximately six and a half pounds, or slightly more.

4. Made in the pattern of the best English sidelock "best guns" from Purdey, Holland and Holland, or Boss.

5. Cosmetic flaws are acceptable, so long as they don't detract from the overall experience of owning a true "best gun".

What's the lowest price of entry into the realm of a true "best gun"?

To further the discussion, what are the price and quality differences of examples of a good, sound, used sidelock "best gun" from the U.K., Spain, and Italy, or anyplace else in the world a true "best gun" would come from?

Any opinions of what I should look for, would be much appreciated.

Well, (Merry Christmas by the way, I'm up letting dogs out)
I'd say, NEW they start around 45,000lbs,for a non big three, London made, best, shotgun.
USED,(and Don Amos has followed this very precisely), a Big Three, sidelock,Best quality, used, not abused, starts at around 20K.

You could look at any of the English auction houses and get a quick handle on current auction results.

Many makers have shotguns somewhat started available to be finished to your specifications. It cuts down some of the lead time.

Based on world wide economic growth right now, they should all be doing good, and prices will reflect that, as well as lead times.

But for me, at less than 20, you would have to be looking very closely at all kinds of minutiae to keep from buying someone else's discard, and would be "settling" in some regards.

I think the critical thing here is the OP's point #4...."Made in the pattern"

I wouldn't argue with CZ's assessment (or Rocketman's) of the cost to enter the London Best club. But don't forget, Rocketman's charts indicate as well the cost you pay to have a certain "brand name" on your gun.

Forgo the brand name and look for "best gun quality" and the price plummets. Buy a lesser known Continental "best" gun and pay a 1/4 of the cost of the equivalent London Best made by one of The Big 4, Purdey, Boss, H&H or Woodward.

I'll throw this out there. Arrizabalaga provided guns to J.Roberts in London. Some of those guns were finished and assembled in London by London craftsmen. Regardless of where they were finished they are high quality guns.

I got to handle a J.Roberts/Arriz gun that was a copy of a Churchill Premiere, had 'J.Roberts, London' on the top rib and the Arrizabalaga name on the locks. That was a very fine gun and I regret to this day not buying it.

Here's link to an old webpage with the models and prices from the past.

J.Roberts Arrizabalaga

Come out to Phoenix during Paradise Season
Stay at the Fairmont Scottsdale Princess
Visit William Larkin Moore and check out the Armas Garbi
http://williamlarkinmoore.com/inventory
Arrizabalaga
http://williamlarkinmoore.com/inventory/itemid/6522
Piotti
http://williamlarkinmoore.com/inventory/itemid/6525
Purdey
http://williamlarkinmoore.com/inventory/itemid/6256

There might even be snow on Four Peaks

Are you interested in a hammer sidelock? I've seen Purdey hammer guns in the 8-10k range, and other Best grade guns for less, such as H. Holland (H&H before the nephew joined)

Last year I was shopping around a 1894 Purdey that belonged to a friend. A hammerless, 12 bore best gun, from 1894. It was tired, in need of a barrel blue, stock freshening (checkering recut, new pad)etc.

I brought it to the Vintagers and first saw Steve Murray from Purdeys who was visiting from London. He looked it over, pronounced it "still as tight as the day it was made" but proceeded to tell me it would not bring much more than $6K, there were too many similar guns out there.

I brought it to 3 dealers at the show, two told me they had no interest as they both had similar guns in their inventory, the last offered $5K, citing the work needed to put it right and the declining market.

I was quoted about $3K from a reputable smith to put it right. A best gun for under $10K. You might be able to do the same with some luck and time searching.

You should have offered it here, I'd have taken 5.
Used car dealers aren't limited to used cars.

Just look on line at closed auctions.
No body is selling a Purdey Hammerless to anybody for 5k since Roy Roger's clapped out funeral model got snatched up.

I believe he did offer it here. Or at least talked about it.

It seems to me when you are pursuing a best gun, the place to start might not be the cheapest one. Or, a project. I know a lot of us have made that mistake, myself included.
I've come to regard best guns in the same light that I regard a Rolls Royce. Why, yes, it is a fine piece of automotive engineering and execution, however, nothing in the crafting or design will help me if I get it stuck along an ice road on lake Mille Lacs on the way out to an ice shack to fish at night in January.
I need a lesser implement to do that task. It is much the same with the hunting/shooting I do, which, is not in the UK, but, here.

Good luck in your quest.

Best,
Ted

This is the first mention in years of the Roy Rogers funeral model. That is one great gun. I would like to see it today. I haven't seen the underpriced Purdey hammer guns, at least not any in high condition. My bar in iron Whitworth barrel pigeon gun may have been a bargain at one time but never again.

This has helped, and hurt, at the same time.

I looked at the William Larkin Moore inventory.

The Garbi is a very nice best gun, for $7,000.

The Arrizabalaga is an even nicer best gun, for $22,000, at just over three times the cost of a Garbi.

Then the Piotti is a cut above the other two, for $30,000, but it's over four times the cost of the Garbi.

And finally, there's a geniune Purdey London best gun, which is the nicest of the four, and it costs $43,500, which is just over six times the cost of the Garbi.

Dagnabbit, best guns are like all other things in this sin cussed world of woe, the better a best gun is, the more it costs!

For now, it makes me love my nice, lightweight, tired looking $600 V. Bernardelli, which looks better each night, as I rub it with a wool sock, then it takes another application of boiled linseed oil.

But the thought of a shootable five thousand dollar Purdey is truly an inspiration.

The quest begins, for a bargain best gun.

It's also not a Webley. It's a surprisingly high-end BSA. Typically, BSA made working man's guns but this one got a bit of extra attention. Not bad for $500 . . . (Despite the fact that the gun and I were not getting along yesterday.)

I have a unique memory, Bill.
I was going to buy it, and got distracted. My understanding was it went immediately out for complete renewal, and is in "as new" condition today.

People overlook that a "best gun" requires "best repair" after purchase.

Or you could be in my shoes, looking for a Prussian Daly diamond quality gun. You get the world's finest pre-war quality and best Damascus for 5-10k. They will stack up against ANYTHING.

If you want to get as close to best and spend the least you may want to look at one of the little know or no name Belgian sidelocks. The quality of some of these guns is excellent and they are undervalued. Buy the gun and not the name!

I mean this in the truest of all sincerity.

Why do you want one?

If it is for psychic income, I can say the effect is fleeting.

You can enjoy the gunmaker's art, and the admiration of friends and acquaintances, without purchasing a London Best.

I stand corrected. It's a BSA, not a Webley.

And looking at it close, my V. Bernardelli does have side clips, and a Greener cross bolt, and there's an extension through the bottom of it's sculpted frame to further lock it up.

But alas, my gun has no ejectors, no sculpted fences, and no checkered butt, and the case colors have all but faded away. The wood is also much nicer, on the BSA.

A best gun would beat them both, put together, wouldn't it?

At least it's pretty to think it would.

Blame Michael McIntosh.

He wrote about those dad blasted "best guns" until it flung a craving on me.

Besides, I'd get to take it all apart with my "turnscrews" and admire the innards, and think about how it was supposed to take a thousand man hours of labor to make it.

It doesn't have to be a London best.

A Birmingham gun, might scratch the itch, or a best gun from some other place.

I own a pair of J.C. Higgins Model 100 AyA guns, and a nice BSS, which has successfully warded off coveting a Model 21 Winchester.

But the V. Bernardelli Bladeswitcher sold me, just inflamed my desire for a sidelock best gun.

Across the board English guns are extremely high quality even when an obscure hardware store merchant's name is stamped into the top rib.

Look at Bladeswitchers BSA, does that look like a hardware store gun to you?

There are guns for looking at, and there are guns for shooting.
Seldom are they the same, and when they are, well, they are expensive.

That's just how it works.
This one is a second tier gun.
Well used, not abused.
And not mine.

992B,
CZ has it correct, "best repair" is expensive. Have you considered a best quality boxlock from an english maker that made them?
I just scored a prewar 1911 Churchill best quality boxlock from Santa.
Karl

I saw a nice pair of sideplated Cogswell and Harrison Avant Tout guns going by recently. They needed a sympathetic refinish of stocks and blacking, but very affordable.
Perhaps not a best pair, but pretty fine potential indeed.

I cannot see by what engineering or gunmaking criteria a V sprung sidelock or boxlock can compare to a coil sprung Beretta 626 which is owner serviceable, has parts that drop in without handfitting. A 626 even has intercepting bents on its hammers, something few boxlocks have.

With a budget of 5000 USD you can get a fine used 626, restock it to personal dimensions, remove the bottom rib to lighten it, (if you really need that kind of lightness), and never worry about its strength and ability to digest modern loads. When the time comes to rebarrel its monobloc barrels can be renewed and reblacked in a couple of weeks at a reasonable cost.

Get real.
No one comes up to you and asks if they might touch your 626.

They do with "Best" guns.
It's primarily a statement of, "You've arrived".

When a world renowned magazine photographs the pair of Purdey .410's that you shoot Red grouse with, well, you're there.

It is what it is.

I have worked part-time around a number of true "best guns" for over a decade now and while they don't affect me as strongly as they once did, I am still very-much in awe of them. I don't own one and it's unlikely now that I ever will (my blue-collar roots are still holding me back, I fear). My loss, I'm sure.

There are an unlimited number of reasons to own one. And an equal number to not.
It has to work within your life.
If an ejector spring broke, would you have to use a home equity LOC to get it fixed? Prolly not a good idea in that case.

It's all relative. At different times in a life, we enjoy different things.

Look at getting a best gun from a lower tier maker. The different tiers of makers and the prices they command have been discussed here in the past. For example-
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436963#Post436963

Anyway, I always wanted one London gun, and 2 years ago I bought this 1907 HJ Hussey Imperial Ejector for under 6K. Its a definite lower tier make but a very fine gun nonetheless.

HJH3 by FGP1154, on Flickr
HJH1 by FGP1154, on Flickr
HJH2 by FGP1154, on Flickr

Concur with Canvasback and Mark. Continental doubles can be had at a substantial discount versus the Brit guns and can be every bit as good.

You must judge each gun as an individual, rather than by brand name.

My entry into best guns came through a $6k Jules Bury made Louis Christophe. I found it locally in Kansas City on gunbroker went over to see it, mounted it once and it ws right. It supplanted my Fox Sterlingworth and started me toward a set of 20, 20, 12, 16, and double rifle JB Christophe guns. All but one below $10k and two were sub $2k project guns. Only after those and more than a decade of shooting and collecting did I get a project Purdey and recently a pair of Alex Martins.

I like my Purdey alot, but I know the reality is the quality in the make is not better than the Jules Bury guns and in fact is less engraving quality wise. The Martins are beatiful Celtic guns, but my Belgian guns are simply better quality guns than the Martins.

I recommend you look at Belgian gun by off name makers from the 1920’s to 1940’s. They convienently come with date stamps. You must develop the knowledge to properly inspect.

In the meantime shooting a decent boxlock and learning through trial and error what works best for you in terms of gun weight, balance, fit, choke is important too, before you put big money into a gun. I got lucky on my first SLE that is is right for me, but I have been through quite a few SXS guns over the years that were not right both before and after the one that is. The gun buying bug is dangerous and involved alot of unwise lust for me at least.

Lastly inspite of having now seven supposed best guns and two boxlocks, I find I use one or two exclusively and the rest sit to be loved. So you probably need fewer guns than you think unless you shoot a wider variety of birds than I do.

A post script on finding a bargain British best, it can be done, but without real knowledge and a little luck it will be harder to do thana old Belgian best.

Very simple answer, well certainly this side of the Atlantic - the AyA No2 - built in Spain on the style and form of an H&H. And you can get a very serviceable one that is 20 or 30 years old for £600 upwards. If you are happy with the boxlock call it £500 for the No4 (with ejectors) of £250 for a No3 - BLNE.

Gr8day's HJ Hussey looks plenty like a best gun to me.

I do like my AYAs, but they're not an English best. AYA #1 & #2 are a close hard to tell or feel the difference from a H&H Royal.

There is a lot of truth in that, however ........... there are other reasons that one might be approached and asked a question or given a comment. That might be "What kind of shells are you using, to kill birds like that?" or "I can't believe you're shooting a .410." or "I didn't see you miss today".

I've been around shooters/hunters all my life. I've shot with the very wealthy and I've hunted with the humble. Double barrel Purdeys and single barrel Iver Johnsons. I've seen people in awe of an expensive shotgun and I've seen people in awe of the shooting ability of a man with a worn out Parker with the forend held on with black electrical tape.

What's my point? Everybody needs to assess their desires. Do you want to be remembered because you own a London best, or because you were a far above average shot? I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, but the hard truth is that I can count the number of men I have known in my life that were "best shots", and also shot "best guns", on one hand ......... and have fingers left over. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number who wanted to impress with their fine guns but couldn't shoot them worth a continental damn. And, I know a considerable number of men who can shoot game with the best, but could care less what kind of guns they're using.

What do I respect the most, the ability of the man ............. or the gun? Without a doubt it is the ability of the man. And, just for the record .........I prefer hunting with the humble.

SRH

The reality of it is you should be very well versed in doubles before plunking down your cash on an English Best. I went through a truck load of boxlocks and SNLE's before buying my Holland. Know your stock dimensions, the chokes you like and spend a few extra bucks having it inspected by a knowledgeable smith. There is tons of junk on the market. Be open minded but when you find the right gun, buy it and do not spend too much time thinking about it. Try to buy a well cared for gun that has not been tarted up. Easier said than done I know. I looked for years before find the gun for me. The best investment I ever made as it gives me hours and hours of pleasure each fall.

I understand from a client that this gun may be out of proof due to the chambers being lengthened

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100960479

It still could be a good buy. I would also want to be sure the barrels started out 28" long and that it has good wall thickness.

There are quite a few dollars between the AyA and H&H Royal. The AyA is a best buy for a very high quality gun. If you will look at pre-1900 guns, there are still some great buys to be had for true best quality guns from the best makers. I don't know why more buyers aren't looking at pre-1900 vintage guns. They are freaking awesome...just saying.

When a friend broke the front articulated trigger on his 626 Beretta sent him one free in the mail and it fit right away. In the same year an English firm charge 1200 pounds for an articulated trigger and needed the gun there for six months.

No matter how much pre4stige a best exudes, that kind of bespoke diddling dulls the mystique.

Neither. I don't hunt or shoot or select guns to impress others. The enjoyment I get is being in the moment, for myself. And if any of my shooting or hunting partners have a memory of me, I hope that it is that I am a good person to spend time with.

Whatever quality guns I have, however good they may be, I get all the satisfaction I get from them from my own opinion of handling and shooting them. Not someone else's. The idea of having a particular gun because it means I have "arrived" is a repugnant idea to me.

And it's not for lack of knowledge of what having "arrived" means. Beside Wingshooter from this site, the last guy I hunted with stands a good chance of having to buy our other hunting partner from that day a new matched pair of Purdey if a particular deal goes through. That includes the trip to London for fitting.

I didn't mean to imply that those were the only two options, James. Your thoughts are right on, and I agree with them entirely.

SRH

My pair of stocked to the fences sidelock Evans guns are second tier even though they are made on Scott actions and can be found for very low prices in UK auctions. What's up with that? My Arrizabalaga 28 is absolutely unengraved, but the fit of wood to metal, metal to metal and the lockwork finish is amazing. It is every bit the gun a Funeral Purdey is, but I bought it for $2600. Although Don's charts are interesting, we had best do our homework before using his charts to write our checks. Also, what's up with AYA #2 guns selling in the UK for 400BP but $6000 here?

Do I have to wait for Christmas to read a really good post from you, James? Merry Christmas!

I try to save my best for the really good days! 😜

It’s late now so Christmas has passed into the books where you are, King. So it’s a belated Merry Christmas and I hope you aren’t one of the unlucky in your province with no power tonigh.

There is a lot of wisdom on this thread. I think most of us on this forum are of a like mind in respect of appreciation and admiration of a man's best effort put forth in the production of a firearm. Those of us who own them choose to do so not to gloat and not because we shoot them better than a lesser effort of craftsmanship, but for the satisfaction they bring in handling and operation. Our families and friends have no appreciation for the 700+ hours of hand effort that was/is required to produce a best gun and we are forced to the Internet to find like minded individuals who know and share our affliction. We are fortunate to have a forum such as this and the freedom to exchange ideas that it affords.

I'd second that.

Bruce Owen, the then Purdey production manager, wrote an article in Shooting Sportman back in 2002 if memory serves. It is an eye opener, more so than any other piece of writing on the non definiton of best. To recap his statements:

CNC machinery is widely used by top makers to decrease expensive hand work. Makers who do not own CNC farm out work to those who do to survive, or else disappear.
CNC machines impose the use of better steels due to the increased force they apply to the work (so now we should call modern best guns bester due to improved steels?)
CNC machinery yields higher accuracy because the work is fixed in a vise once
Modern machines decrease costs by allowing lower inventories.

He concludes by stating that modern best guns are better due to modern machines and presumably less hand work. It is interesting to ponder the implications of his writing when standing in an Italian gunmakers looking at rows of CNC machines they adopted years before the so called "best" makers did.

There may be an indication then as to where to look for best and get your money's worth.

Best Guns are within our reach if you are willing on taking chances at auctions.
I have a friend I shoot with reguarly and he just picked up two very nice Boss side by sides at the last Julia's Auction.
A nice mid 20's 16 gauge with 27" barrels for a little over 10K and a nice 12 bore made around 1908 for under 10K.
Now they both need some things done to get them to a proper level but both came with oak and leather cases.
I estimate another 4K and both will be nice presentable guns.
Oh, he just picked up a nice bar action Grant side lever hammer gun at Holts for under 5K. Now it has sleeved barrels but being already over in the UK the possibilities are endless.
So Best Guns are out there if you are willing to hunt for them.

+1

An SKB is a best gun to me.

Does anyone know the month that article was printed? I would like to get a copy of it.

On the subject of CNC machining by best quality makers, there were some very interesting comments on the Westley Richards Explora blog about that. Westley Richards uses them but refuses to run batches of guns even though it would be more cost effective in some ways. To keep that stock on hand is actually more expensive so they will use CNC machines but one gun at a time...no batches of actions. They probably make batches of springs, pins, etc for fitting later. I thought that was interesting and transparent of them to say so. If you haven't read the Explora blog, you are really missing some fantastic photography, fascinating behind the scenes info and beautiful guns.

That's hardly surprising King, considering that you also thought that the anti-gunner Barack Hussein Obama would go down in history as one of our best presidents.

Now there's some proof that "best" is a highly subjective term.

You are not asking what is the least expensive best gun you are asking what is the least expensive high grade. For almost all gun makers, any of their models above an upper mid-grade is exactly the same gun. The only difference is the embellishment, hand filing/polish, and quality of wood.
Just as previously stated you can go to the guns of any country and find a work of art. There are thousands of Sauers in this country that are useful for nothing but boat anchors. However, if you see a custom you will know what quality work is. The same can be said for dozens of other makers.
Modern machining of metals maybe a great invention for cost savings but it does nothing to set the gun apart.
That is accomplished only by hand finishing. If you look at the quality of a high grade today and look at one from the 1950s you'll be able to see the difference in the quality of workmanship. You could line up a row of used $15,000 guns and there would always be one that stood out.
You are at the tire kicking stage. Spend your time going to great gun shops and looking at all guns. It will become apparent to you that the appearance of a best gun is immediately recognizable.

A best London gun does NOT have to be a Purdey, Boss, or Holland.

There are other London makers with equivalent quality... Beasley, Wilkes, Atkin, Hussey, and Woodward to name a few.

I just imported a best quality 12 ga. 'spring opener with original 27" barrels, awesome condition (but no maker's case) weighing 6 lbs, 3 ozs. made by Henry Atkin in 1930. Paid just south of $15,000 and I think I got a better than fair deal.

And shouldn't it go without saying that a best gun, when built, may not necessarily be a best gun today?

What level of deterioration in condition renders a best no longer a best?

SRH

14115 - (1864?)
Name: E.M Reilly (nothing further - no photos, etc)
Descriptions: Underlever hammer double; 29 1/2" fancy damascus barrels aged brown with lots of original pattern. Very good bore with a couple of scattered pits. Best quality jones under lever action
Comment:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=528802164#PIC

Link is out: Here is original ad and photos:
E. M. Reilly underlever hammer double

29 1/2" fancy damascus barrels aged brown with lots of original pattern. Very good bore with a couple of scattered pits. Best quality jones under lever action with top quality engraving, tall hammers and carved fences. Locks up tight and on face. LOP is 15" to the original horn buttplate. Drop is 1 3/4" and 2 3/4". Classic 1880's gun from a highly respected maker.  
Started at  
$3,200.00
Characteristics for Item # 528802164 
Manufacturer:  Other Manufacturer
Model:  Other Model
Barrel Length:  29 inch
Gauge:  12
Capacity:  2



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21339 (second of a pair)
Name: E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London
Description: 12-bore hammer gun. Engraved '2' on the rib and triggerguard tang, Jones patent rotary-underlever, rebounding sidelocks, best foliate-scroll engraving, well-figured stock with recoil-pad, the damascus barrels with game-rib. Weight 6lb. 13oz., 15in. pull (14½in stock), 30in. barrels, both approx. I.C., 2½in. chambers, London nitro proof.
…..Comment: Based on serial number likely numbered in 1878.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21659/lot/53/



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34572 -
Name: E.M Reilly & Co. (full address not mentioned in ad or photos)
Descriptions: E.M. Reilly & Co. 12 g. BEST Side lock ejector with 30” Damascus barrels; 2 1/2 chamber.
Comment: Classic side panels.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100601796

Link doesn't work any more: here is original ad and pictures:

E.M. Reilly & Co. 12 g. BEST Side lock with beautiful Damascus barrels! Sale Price! Barg
Description:
Stocked to the fences this London best sidelock is striking in its wood, engraving, and beautiful Damascus pattern.
Price: $6,600.00

Antique: Yes
Manufacturer: E.M. Reilly & Co. 12 g. BEST Side lock with beautiful Damascus barrels! Sale Price! Barg
Serial Number: 34572
Ejectors: No
Barrels: 30
Barrel Type: Damascus
Action: Sidelock ejector
Gauge: 12 gauge
Stock Comb: 1 1/2
Stock Heel: 2 1/2
Stock Cast: 1/4
LOP: 14 3/4" (with 14 9/1
Weight: 6 lbs. 13 oz.
Choke Left: .025 full
Choke Right: Cyl.
Proof:Black: 2 1/2
Minimum Wall Thickness Left: .024
Minimum Wall Thickness Right: .025



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
34865 -
Name: E.M Reilly & Co., 277 New Oxford St. London (photos are hazy but pretty sure)
Descriptions: A best E M Reilly , London 12 bore boxlock ejector (BLE) side by side shotgun , double triggers , chequered straight hand figured walnut stock with teardrops , matched extension , vacant silver lozenge and chequered butt . The action , tang , top lever, flat rib , trigger guard and push - rod mount decorated with fine border and foliate scroll engraving . 30" nitro proof steel barrels with doll's head extension and 2 3/4" chambers.
Comment:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/aucti...9a-a44a00e4518e

No not at all, current condition has zero to do with original build quality. Both need to be considered before you throw your money down and both contribute to the guns current value but a best is always a best and a second quality gun no matter how high of condition it may be in will always be second quality. Condition and quality are apples and oranges.

I'll accept that explanation, Steve.

But, is it really sensible that a gun that is literally trashed, and not worth restoring, is still a best gun just because it was when it was built? Does poor condition not affect quality at some point? I don't mean the original quality, I mean the current quality.

Not arguing, just trying to understand.

SRH

Best is a grade of gun, say similar to a Fox DE grade. Is there a point a DE grade is no longer worth restoring? You betcha, but it will always be a DE no matter its condition. Would a high condition AE grade serve you better than a clapped out DE? Indeed it would. But that A will never be a D grade. Condition and original quality both matter a whole bunch but they a very different critters.

On Argo's post, only the Bonham's gun link is working for me.

That helps, Steve. Thanks.

SRH

I agree with that.

You can also get them with compressed steel barrels, like this one:

http://merzantiques.com/item/12-gauge-ch...ejector-double-

I have bought my first Double Gun Journal ca. 1991 and have been playing this game for long time. I would modify that VB and enjoy it by putting money into hunting opportunities instead of trying to find 'best gun' SLE from England. Buying 'best gun' will be expensive because it will entail buying double with either H&H or Beesley actioned "self-opening" gun (mechanism cocks on closing making it easy to open but harder to close) or their clone made elsewhere.

+1 for SKB. These are two of the three factors that determine a gun's likely value; the third being Brand Value.

For use of my tables, you must still learn to evaluate Original Quality and Current Condition.

DDA

Once upon a time, before the Great Recession wiped out every one of my wealthy condo developer buddies who used to go to Winner, South Dakota each fall for a pheasant hunt, I stopped at Cabela's in Mitchell, and looked at a very nice Purdey.

The man said it was only $10,000, because the chambers had been lengthened to 2 3/4", and it was originally a 2 1/2 inch gun, and hadn't been subjected to reproof. It would likely be all right, but they would not guarantee the barrels would stand proof. Not very reassuring.

The gun was quite a bargain, he said, compared to another one on the rack that looked just like it, that was sixty thousand dollars.

Then I went on to Winner, where one of my wealthy friends let me hunt that afternoon with one of his Purdeys, one of a pair he'd only paid thirty thousand for the pair, many years ago.

All in all, the Purdey was a very nice gun, and handled about like my Ithaca Model 37, which is a great complement to the Purdey. It looked much like the Grulla the same man showed me, with beautiful engraving and gold filled screws, he said was only a six thousand dollar gun.

I have more guns than I can shoot, if I shot one a week for a year.

I appreciate all your well thought out advice, but my conservative nature has me wanting to send off my Bernardelli to Mike Orlen and have the chokes opened up to something more "game gun" than IM/F, and shoot the hide off the thing at skeet, causal trap, sporting clays, and the doves I shoot in the fall here in Missouri.

Buying a "best gun' is sort of like buying a genuine 28 gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun. It might be the real deal, or it could be a 16 gauge Model 12 counterfeited into a 28 gauge. Somebody could screw me to death buying a best gun, and I'd be standing there just smiling, not knowing enough to avoid my screwing.

And if I want to admire great craftsmanship, all I need to do is take one of my Browning Superposed shotguns apart, and peep up inside.

I'm not saying I won't eventually buy a best gun.

But I'm going to try out a lot of best guns, first, and buy one that my gunsmith pronounces as sound and good, and it might be another V. Bernardelli.

They made some best guns, too, with sidelocks and nice engraving. I see them listed in the Gun Trader's Guide.

And their box lock S. Uberto I guns imported by Charles Daly, handle about like that Purdey I tried, or an Ithaca Model 37, take your pick.

I own bunches of Ithaca Model 37's, but only that one boxlock light game gun from Italy.

It will do me, for now.

"All in all, the Purdey was a very nice gun, and handled about like my Ithaca Model 37, which is a great complement to the Purdey."

This is pasted onto my quotations file! Thank you.

The injection of Prussian Dalys into this discussion makes it much more realistic. Leroy's Featherweight Daly is probably the best buy we have discussed. Too bad it has already been claimed. I have a little bit of everything in my collection, but my Lindner guns are about the best there is.

Although it doesn't meet your design criteria, high grade Darne shotguns (which I'd define as V-19 and above) are beautifully fit and finished and tend to be fairly light weight for gauge. They are extremely strong actions and I doubt anyone has ever worn one out from use (as opposed to mistreatment).

Those original links to Reillys were from my original research in Dec 2015-Jan 2016. Many no longer work. Thankfully I kept a copy of most of the original ads and photos of most of the guns. I've posted a working link to 34865 and the original ads for the other two whose links have gone dark. If anyone wants to see a pic of some particular Reilly from that original database, I may be able to accommodate.

I realize now what a lot of work compiling that database was and since it was usually in the evening with a scotch or a gin in hand, damned near turned me into an alcoholic. I'm also convinced I wasn't quite sane (not a surprise to some here). I am going to search my original database with key word "Best" to see what else turns up in the Reilly world. Mind - just because it has "Best" in the ad doesn't mean much.

20468

http://www.pooshka.com/a.php?aid=13575

Name: E.M. REILLY (full address not mentioned)
Descriptions: 10 bore hammer, Purdey patent, circa 1882-1883 22 rifle. damascus pattern on barrels and ribs. Exquisitely engraved rebounding sidelock hammer receiver with tall graceful hammers, fancy carved fences and tight, on face lockup bluebook gun. Straight grip extra fancy English walnut stock pistol. Great old Reilly hammer gun on a Purdy action 38 revolver. The receiver is mostly silver but all engraving is very very fine and very sharp with wear visible only on the trigger tang in the grip area used gun. All finishes are in high condition revolver collector. 32 line per inch very fine checkering sks rifle. A correct and very solid London best sidelock hammer gun from a great maker bluebook gun values. 29 1/4" fancy damascus barrel



15084 (this number may be the auction house identifier not the Reilly SN…this is likely 1880’s)
http://www.stevebarnettfineguns.com/asp-bin/archivelist.asp?sort=00
15084,  E.M.REILLY , Model: BEST HAMMER PIGEON GUN , 12  Gauge  
SBFG ID: 15084
Manufacturer: E.M.REILLY 



35079
http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/back-catalogue.htm

EM Reilly Co 12b SLE no 35079 14 5/8” well figured stock inc. 3/4” Leather Recoil Pad. 30” Damascus 2 3/4” Nitro Proof

The Action is of Southgate's back action sidelock design and features: 
Back action 9 pin locks with interceptor sears, 
Top lever operating a Mills 3rd bite and a Purdey Bolt by way of a Scott Spindle, 
Double triggers bolted by an automatic top tang safety slide, 
Southgate ejectors tripped by sprung plates rocking in the bar of action 
and Anson's push rod forend catch. 
Gun weight 6lb 13 ½ oz 
Engraving style Best Foliate Scroll. Webley fences with carved Acanthus leaves. Gold 'SAFE'
Trigger pulls measure approximately: Front trigger 3 lbs Rear trigger 4 lbs
The original damascus barrels are 29 7/8" in length, chambered for 2 3/4" (70mm) cartridges and are of brazed dovetail lump construction with soft soldered ribs.
Top rib is of the smooth, concave game type. 
London reproof for 70mm nitro powder cartridges in 2013.

Approximate barrel measurements at date of publication:
 
Nominal Proof Size
Bore Diameter 9" from Breech
Minimum Wall Thickness
Choke Constriction
Right Barrel
18.7mm
(0.736")
0.737"
0.024" at 9" from muzzle
0.010" (IC)
Left Barrel
18.7mm
(0.736")
0.735"
0.029"
0.031" (IM)

The Straight Hand Stock and Splinter Forend are crafted from highly figured walnut. The stock is 'stocked to the fences', lightly cast-off for a right-handed shot, features a vacant white metal oval, well-defined drop points and is finished with a ¾" leather covered recoil pad. The forend features a finely engraved steel forend tip.

Highly Figured walnut

The 20 lines per inch chequering is to the normal sidelock pattern
The stock is finished with a traditional linseed oil based preparation as used on best guns by one of the top English makers. This finish uses no grain fillers to achieve its deep, smooth lustre, only many hours of alternate build and flatting off of the surface.
Approximate stock measurements at date of publication:
Pull to Heel
Pull to Bump
Pull to Centre
Pull to Toe
14 1/2"
14 5/8"
14 5/8"
15"
Drop at Comb
Drop at Face
Drop at Heel
1 7/16"
1 5/8"
2 1/8"
Cast at Comb
Cast at Heel
Negligible
1/4" Approximate
For the purposes of these measurements, 'Drop at Face' is the 'drop' measurement taken on a line perpendicular to the 
line joining the trigger and centre of the butt at approximately 8" from the trigger (front trigger on a double trigger gun).
Patents Exhibited include:
Southgate lockwork, ejector and interceptor sear patent no 12314 of 1889; 
'Purdey Bolt' patent no. 1104 of 1863;
'Scott Spindle' patent no. 2752 of 1865;
Mills 3rd bite patent no 4980 of 1878; 
Southgate's ejector trip patent no 8239 of 1893 
and Anson's forend fastener patent no. 3791 of 1872.