I am trying to find out as much as I can about this 16 gauge gun for a friend. I know little more about it other than the barrels measure 29.5". Hopefully the stampings on the barrels and flats will be helpful. Thank you in advance for any information.

No idea about Sicher, but proofed in Imperial Germany between 1891-1912. Krupp fluid steel barrels,both with original bores of 0.669" ~+/- 0.010"

"Sicher" "For Sure" (Safe)

Sicher is safe. 75cm tubes mated to a Kerner-Anson platform. Is the word Nitro on the sides of the tubes? If not, probably made just prior to WWI. Looks like it experienced proof in the final state. I don't recognize the tube maker right off but I'll look. Any stamps on the receiver?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html

I guess that might have been discerned from the location relative to the safety button. Duh!

I believe I can make out the nitro proof on the barrel just at the edge of the flat - unless that says something else. That's where the nitro stamp is on my older German guns.

I asked for pictures of other stampings on the barrels, top rib, water table and this is what I got. Will it be possible to find out the maker, age, or much else?

fallschirmjaeger has a proper monocle & was spot on regarding the Nitro stamp so that bounds it 1912-1923 - Suhl. Not sure on the maker but it reminds me of an August Schüler but I can't put my hands on an August Schüler catalogue at the moment.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I know you most certainly have a much deeper understanding of the teutonic guns, but doesn't the "16/1" stamp on the flats indicate it was proofed in January 1916? That's what I had always read...

fallschirmjäger:

Nah, I've just viewed a few more than most. That 16/1 is actually a vulgar fraction and although I do not know the designations like back of hand, I'm confident that billwolfe is correct @ 0.669" for the diameter of the bore. Regarding Suhl, they did not commence a dating scheme until September 1923 while Zella-Mehlis began in the early 1900s. There is some info that suggest that the Suhl proof facility saw renovation in the early 1920s and either the Suhl proof facility or the Suhl mechanics sent their wares to the Z-M facility, but either way there was a ledger number associated w/ the Suhl proofed weapons for say 6 months.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Very interesting...thank you for sharing your knowledge on these fine guns

No worries. And I think that 16/1 measurement was taken @ 22cm or 8 inches forward of the breech?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for the information thus far. It is greatly appreciated.

Anything on the floorplate? For now, look toward August Schüler Suhl, possibly a Modell Nr. 1 or similar. I still can't get my August Schüler Suhl reprint catalogue at my fingertips but I did locate a thread on mechanic Schüler:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=235071&page=1

August Schüler, or his clients, seemed to really fancy the sideframe reinforcement. Also Schüler proffered examples that were to the max outfitted w/ reinforcement belts & braces.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

nominal 16 gauge = .662" (16.8mm); 15 gauge = .677" (17.2mm).
16/1 = (.662" + .677")/2 = .6695". Note average of the two numbers in calculating the "Tween" size is dropped, not rounded, to 3 decimal places, thus the 16/1 is .669" rather than .670".
!6/1 marked on the barrel meant that at proof it would accept the .669" plug gage to requisite depth but not the .677" one. There was no minus tolerance on the bore mark as the barrel had to accept the gage of that diameter. Plus tolerance was to the next size gage in the series which varied with each gauge size.
Gages were made in every even size gauge from 1 down to 50 (.453") & then in .010" steps from .450" down to .300 caliber (172.28 gauge). The .410 is incidentally a 67.49 gauge.

That's a capital point on the minus component. Chambers had a tolerance/variance of >2.5mm(Axel E. gives 2mm but what's 0.5mm??) before it warranted reproof so um one would commmence @ 65mm(Axel E. gives 65.1mm so I guess some empirical data from 100 or 1000 chambers might prove this out?) and range up to the proverbial 67.5mm, which most cartridges are designed. Therefore, if a chamber is 65.1mm plus 2.5mm then it is just shy of 70mm by less than 3mm. But pressure would more than likely be an issue when you jump to a 70mm cartridge.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse