I recently acquired my first two vintage 10 gauge doubles. The first is a massive English W.Richards hammer gun with 32" "London fine twist" tubes weighing a hefty 11 lbs/8oz. The chambers in that gun measure 3 1/4".

The second gun is a very early D grade Parker Lifter, with 28" Damascus Barrels, the gun weighs about 8 lbs. the chambers in that gun measure 2 3/4"

I think the English gun is way too early for 3" plus shells...

What ammo does the group think the two guns were designed for?

That 3 1/4 shell did not have a real heavy payload. They used the extra space to add extra wadding. I would expect the 3 1/4" shell to be just about the same as the 2 5/8" shell.

I have an Ithica Crass 30 in. damascus 10 ga. with a sub-10K serial number from about 1889 with 3" chambers. It weighs 8 1/4 lbs. I shot 1 1/4 oz. loads in it from 2 7/8" cut down Federal hulls. There were all sorts of 10 ga. chambers evidently.

Please post images of every mark on the action and barrel flats of the W. Richards. "London Fine Twist" usually implies a Belgian maker.

Feb 24, 1900 Sporting Life
The Winchester people offer the Repeater in 10, 12, 16 and 20 gauges, loaded with any of the standard brand of Nitro powders; the maximum loads for this shell being 10-gauge, 3 1/2 drams powder, 1 1/4 oz. shot (shell boxes list 28 grains Ballistite or Laflin & Rand Bulk Powder).

Until the 1920s, the heaviest North American factory loaded 10 gauge shells offered were 1 1/4 ounces of shot with 4 1/4 Dr. Eq. of smokeless powder in a 2 7/8 inch case.

There is quite a bit of information on the PGCA site regarding the "Short 10"
http://parkerguns.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21

I have a Damascus barrel Smallwood 10 bore which has 3 1/2" chambers, probably opened up from 2 7/8", and reproved with superior nitro proofs. I have not been able to find CIP service data for 3 1/2" 10 bore. I would not shoot anything heavy because of the old wood, but would like to know what it is meant to handle.

Thanks.

I have a Rod Cocking, Side Pivot top lever Lefever, so built around 1890 which has 3" chambers. This is a 32" 10 lb gun.
I have a 12 gauge W Richards with Birmingham black powder proofs which has a similar rib marking to yours, don't recall off hand exactly. It has been suggested this one was likely built by J P Clabrough. The proof marks will tell its origin of birth, but it is not connected with Westley Richards.

"Most" early American built tens will be found with 2 5/8 or 2 7/8 chambers but other lengths were available on order.

LGF: It's at the top here
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=1&cartridge_type_id=7

Service 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi
Proof 1320 BAR = 19,145 psi

Ah, that time bomb Damascus

huntermn, If your W.Richards is the W.Richards of Liverpool,you have a gun by a very good English maker.I have a W.J.Jeffrey & Co.
10 bore hammergun that weighs 11 lbs. 2 oz. with 33" damascus barrels that was chambered for 3 1/4" 10 bore Perfect cases,(engraved on the underside of the barrels),which were thin brass cases that took 9 bore wads and the gun according to "The Gun and It's Development"by W.W.Greener,was proofed for a service load of
4 1/4 drams of black powder and 1 5/8 oz of shot.The proof load was 8 1/2 drams of black powder and 2 1/8 oz. of shot.The gun was built in 1896.The bore dimension at proof was stamped 10/2 which is almost 9 bore.Very big difference between the load of a 2 5/8 shell (1 1/8 oz.) and the magnum wildfowler.

Dr. Drew: I posted my question to the wrong topic. Sorry for the confusion.
My question is in year 1900 what was Winchester's offering in the 20 bore?
Thanks RLP

Up until about WWI the standard 20g load in the U.S. was 7/8 oz. with 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. Bulk or Dense Smokeless powder at 1155 fps; in a 2 1/2" case.
7/8 oz. with 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. at 1210 fps had been the standard British 20g load even before the 20g was offered by U.S. makers.

The Winchester Repeater had only 2 Dr. Eq. in 1900

7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was 8000-9000 psi.
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 11,000 psi.

The markngs are not correct for this gun to be a W Richards (William I seem to recall) of Liverpool. It could be a low grade Clabrough or it could be Belgian, likely Pieper if Belgian. The proof marks will tell the country of origin.

I have not yet posted any pics, but here is one, Birmingham proofs.

Your Parker was probably intended for 2 7/8 shells. Back then in America many times the chamber was a 1/8" or so shorter than the shell. It was thought a better seal would be made with the fiber wads.

I use rst's in mine. 5's will rock a turkey and the 7's and 8's smash clays. I imagine they are pretty openly choked too

I am having issues posting photos here. I have posted several photos of the gunon the Parker Collectors site, under the “other fine doubles” forum topic W. Richards Liverpool 10.

The gun is definitely a Birmingham gun, as I have posted no photos of it here, I dont know what markings you find incorrect?

Wonder what the pressure of that load was?? Do you shoot an equivalent load in your gun??

In order to make the gun much more user friendly as regards reloading and shooting the gun,and because the action is almost as large as a double 8 bore,with a Jones underlever,and over 40 thou minimum barrel wall,I opted for rechambering the gun to 3 1/2" and having it magnum nitro proofed in Birmingham at 1200 Bars.Technically it should handle 3 1/2" lead factory loads,which are usually 2 1/4 oz., but I currently am reloading 1 1/2 oz.bismuth which it handles with ease.

What was the cost, and the complcations of having the gun reproofed??

Some time back I read an account of this, written by the William Richards Company of Liverpool themselves. Unfortunately I did not save it.

Bottom line was "IF" it was made by W Richards of Liverpool, there will be no question as to its origin. If there is a question it was not made in Liverpool.

The "London Fine Twist" marking is not correct for a Liverpool gun. It would be correct for either a Birmingham proofed J P Clabrough or a Belgian Pieper gun.