Howdy, I'm relatively new to doubles ( have sabatti in 9.3x74r, and 470ne ). I'm looking at a couple other guns in more common calibers, IE, 30-06 or something close. One of the guns in looking at is a Winchester grand European. How do the extractors work on these with rimless cartridges? Should I avoid this?

Ps. I've been loving my sabatti's. Can't believe I waited so long to get into doubles.

Thanks

Many Winchester Grand Europeans have had serious problems with poor regulation. I would consider one only if it could be demonstrated to be reasonably well regulated.

Agree with the above. Given poor regulation and the fact that most came silver brazed at the muzzle (which makes re-regulating a PITA at best), I'd wade carefully. I've heard of it being done on a few rifles, but that's a project and certainly something to be aware of. If it's proven to shoot well with a reasonable load, then this is less to worry about.

Most double rifles for rimless cartridges use a small, spring-loaded pawl (or sometimes just a rounded wire) that recesses back into the extractor housing as you push the cartridge in. If you're careful (or lucky, depending on who you talk to) it snaps back into place in the notch. In the few I've seen, it doesn't seem like the sturdiest setup.

I danced with a 375 H&H vs 9.3x74R double decision, and ended up with the 9.3 mostly because I wasn't convinced by the extractor pawl on the 375. Plenty for what I needed it to do at the time - but of course that's not what you're asking. DRs sure are fun.

There are some neat doubles out there in 303 British and 30-30. I think the key to keep in mind is the regulating load. Even though there are doubles in some more common calibers, you may not have access to loads with the right powder, pressure, and bullet. Pressure is definitely a consideration in longevity of a double, and compared to the big safari loads, the 30-06 is up there. Anyway, you may get some more input from folks with more knowledge than me in the DR-specific category of this site.

Thanks, great comments.

I've only ever owned two double rifles, both European. One was in .405 Winchester (Belgian), a rimmed cartridge, and the other in .250-3000 (German), a rimless cartridge. The .250-3000 had the spring loaded pawl. Both extracted flawlessly. While I might have concerns on a dangerous game rifle, if only because the consequences could be fatal if extraction failed, I would not be too concerned about the issue on a medium game rifle.

That being said, Chapuis offers a number of rimmed cartridges that are quiet suitable for medium game and you might look at them. SIACE also made an interesting hammer double in a number of suitable calibers and I see them listed for sale from time to time.

ChristopherB,
I personally prefer a rimmed cartridge, but recognize that rimless extractors have been made for many years and are now very reliable. I agree with one of the above posts that it is one thing when you a facing an animal that is able and anxious to stomp you into a greasy spot, and quite another when you are hunting in your own backyard. Regarding "regulation", I have found that most of the problems come from improper bench procedures, and ammunition different than used to regulate the rifle( especially bullet weight). Both barrels must be fired as quickly as the sights/scope can be aligned and should be allowed to cool to ambient temperature after each pair of shots. Mounting a scope on a rifle regulated with open sights can also change bullet impact. The rifle should be held in both hands and the body should be upright so recoil will "rock you back" as if shooting "off hand".
Mike

Thanks for the continued comments ( keep them coming ). As pointed out, I have the dangerous game covered and am looking for thin skinned or less dangerous game options in a double next. I'm not real fond of exposed hammers and prefer O/U, however, sxs is not a problem. I'd be interested in hearing about the Chapuis? ( as well as more comment on the winchester grand european - anyone got one in a rimmed caliber? )

thanks

Not double rifles but combo guns that I use a lot for coyote hunting. I've had them in 222 Rem and 223 in the past, rimless cartridges were enough of a problem that I really contemplated rechambering the 222 Rem to 222 Rem Rimmed(Bertram makes brass). The problem wasn't with the extractor but cartridges falling back into the chamber behind the extractor when removing them. I sold off those and now use a 12ga/5.6x50R and a 12ga/5.6x52R(22 Savage Highpower) everything works perfect now.

There is a bunch of good Rimmed cartridges out there that are readily available 6.5x57R, 7x57R, 8x57R and 9.3x74R and including the two small bores above it should cover most of the hunting, I see a number of double rifles in in 303 also.

I shoot Drillings in 6.5x58R, 7x57R and 9.3x72R also

Rimless extraction in double rifles has been debated ad nauseum. The "purists" who mostly reside in armchairs behind keyboards, all declare rimless extraction an abomination.

On the other hand, the Germans have a century of well-crafted double rifles with rimless extraction. They work, and work well.

For 50 years at least, the Brits have offered their best double rifles in rimless cartridges such as .375 H&H. They work, and work well. A casual look on GunBroker will reveal best quality Holland & Holland double rifles offered in that caliber.

I own quite a few double rifles. Some of them have rimless extraction. I have never had a failure.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Curl

I owned a Beretta stacked barrel in 30-06. I experienced no issues with ejection of spent brass and the accuracy was surprising good and well regulated.

with 375H&H being a belted magnum, is the extractor working on the belt or groove?

thanks

The groove.

Curl

the Valmet 412 allowed you to slip a cartridge over the extractor to chamber and extraction without issue. Also adjustable barrel wedges for windage and elevation made for pretty darn good regulation. Overly heavy guns though in dbl rifle configuration.

Do the valmets have freespace between the barrels? I'm not overly fond of that. Reminds me too much of my biakal, with I'm not overly fond of either..

Thanks for the comments guys, keep em coming.