Well, it's almost here, 60 days out for Ohio, and about 50 day for Kentucky turkey season. I can remember my first turkey taken with a Browning sxs, 2 3/4 inch gun. Who would of thought the spring of 1970 would become a passion. I have only missed 1 season due to a deployment. I am slowing down, finding myself only hunting 3 states, verse my normal 5 states treks.

What was everyone's first turkey, and gun used?
Gobble, gobble!!

Not dead sure of the date but it was the second year they opened a turkey season in Manitoba. I think 1995. Absolute rank amateurs, my brother and I. No history of turkey hunting in the area, no one to talk about it with and pre-internet. But we both got birds on opening day and have been hooked since. That was before I got into doubles so I used my Rem 870 Wingmaster.

Subsequent birds have been taken with a 12 ga Browning Double Auto, a 12 ga Fox A grade, a Fox SW 16 gauge and a Pieper in 16.

I'm hoping my extra tightly choked Lindner Daly 12 gauge will be ready for this season but not holding my breath. In it's absence I will likely select the 12 ga Fox A grade. The first year I KNOW it took a turkey was 1942 by my grandfather.

First season in my neck of the woods was spring of 1977. Third time in the woods I killed my first with an Ithaca M37 12 gauge, 2 3/4". Stan Baker choked it. "Hell, this is easy." It took another 2 years to kill another. I spent the next 4 decades learning something new every time I went. My guns over the years have been the Ithaca above, an Ithaca Mag 10, a Spanish Double 10 ga. 3.5", a 10 ga. Ithaca NID Magnum 3.5", a Mossy Ultimag, Benelli SBE, Ithaca M37 20 ga. TurkeySlayer and Mossy Super Bantam 20 ga. I currently shoot either a Yildiz single-shot .410 or Baikal MP-18 20 ga. single-shot. Spring gobbler season is The Main Event for me. Gilooble.
Photo taken in the early 80's. I'm sitting on the tailgate with my Spanish 10 double. Burke has his Ithaca Mag 10.

It was the spring of 1998. I'd moved back to Idaho in the spring of 1997 and when I became resident eligible again, I put in for a tag, for a hunt in the far northern county in the Panhandle. I recruited my good friend, the "expert" in turkey hunting, who had managed to score one tag in previous drawings.

I managed to draw a tag, my BIL secured permission on a farm near Bonners Ferry where he lived, and my expert friend and I drove up to be in the field on opening morning.

We scouted the farm the evening before and touched bases with the farmer. There must have been 100 or more turkeys hanging out in the barnyard....I figured it would be like shooting ducks in a pond! Next morning we hiked in, in the dark and set up under a large bull pine 200-300 yards above the barnyard. Unbeknownst to us we managed to set up under a roost tree.

When it got light out, again there was 100 or more birds in the barnyard. We moved in closer, but couldn't bring in any in to the box call.

As the birds started to disperse from the barnyard, none came our way, so we headed to the other side of the property. We set up and waited and shortly a bird gobbled fairly close. My friend made some noises on the box call and soon the tom came to within about 15 yards. I was a bit out of position, and when I moved the bird took off running down a farm road, I got on it and fired with my Rem 870 12 ga just at it went over a rise in the road. I figured I'd missed it, but as I ran over the rise, there it was flopping around on the farm road. I was pumped!

Since then I've shot them maily with a double 12 or 16 ga.

Say I hunted n Georgia one season many years ago in the late 70s lots of birds but tuff hunting, lots of birds gobbling but pretty much went into a stealth mod. my father Sam and myself each killed a nice long beard before we headed home. I was scared to death of stepping on a damn snake. I hate snakes and I am a firm believer a good snake is a dead snake endangered or not!

Georgia's turkey restoration took place in different regions at different times. The first opening day in my area of the State was in 1988. I bagged my 1st gobbler that year with a Remington 11-87 3" 12ga.

I'd hunted them before that in middle GA on my farm because the season came in a couple of years earlier there. The birds were scarce and we were clueless, so we'd stop and call if we saw a track, and build a blind when we found a dusting spot.

The birds in South GA had come on strong by the time our season opened and my boys and their friends learned right along with me. We began to think we were experts in those days. That's when I switched from a repeater to a single shot. The last time I had to carry 60 pounds of gobbler a mile and a half out of the swamp was the last time I used a repeater. No self control.

Well, it was almost the last time I carried a repeater. I had some serious heart surgery in '16 and that Spring my goal was to kill a turkey as part of my recovery program. I began the Spring with a .410 double and some tungston super shot 9's Gil Stacy had loaded for me. I went most of the season without luck, but the exercise built up my confidence as well as strength and probably kept me from becoming an invalid.

As the season came near to the end, I found a good bunch of birds and decided to bring my 20ga 11-87 repeater. When I set up on the spot they'd been strutting the gobbles rang out all around my blind. Of course they turned out to be jakes and all six of them came right to my call. When the smoke cleared I picked up three of them and resolved never to take another repeater turkey hunting again...Geo

Here's a couple of gobblers I killed one at a time separately with my single shot. Both in the same morning:

One spring weekend about 40 years ago, in Comanche County Texas with Marlin (Manufrance) 12 ga pump.
I had both kids in my lap while taking a noon break looking out over a valley when my wife called in a nice gobbler within 40 yards. When she stopped calling he lost interest and wandered away without seeing us.
The next morning I went back and shot that one, but his running buddy escaped. I put the RB to bed that evening and the next morning had to hunt hard, but eventually called him into range and shot him too.
Turkeys are plentiful in Comanche County and over the years, I have many nice meals on them. Now, I just like to watch my grandson take turkeys that I call in.

I called my first full strutting Tom to a Stevens 5100. I pulled the trigger on the full barrel and a 2 3/4 in #5. That gobbler left in a hurry and I’m sure carried a few pellets in his breast. I like my birds stone dead and so every year I resist the temptation to use the Lefever 8 or 10 and go with my purpose built Turkey gun.
I find it to be a complete addiction and really regret I didn’t give it a go sooner. ( I foolishly thought hunting was only for the fall.) My Uncle Mike tried hard.. seen here before I really got the bug.

There were zero turkeys where I grew up. The State Game Department started releasing them late 70's or early 80's. It was exactly the same time my quail recovery efforts were hitting excellent numbers of coveys of birds on four farms. But as the turkey numbers started to increase the quail population crashed, never to recover. So now we have turkeys coming out of the wood work and less than half a dozen coveys of quail where once were 15-20.

I hate what turkey introduction has done on my farms and would gladly shoot them all if it would help the quail to recover. Right now every family member and old hunting buddy who wants a turkey knows where to go. Shoot old Jon's turkeys because he has no use for them.

I have seen quail once in my life. January 1993.

Quail and turkeys coexisted for a million years. I think the quail disaster has a different cause. Perhaps intestinal parasites? Turkeys can thrive in situations where quail can't. Their size make disjointed habitat no problem...Geo

Geo, what say about turkey introduction harmful to ruffed grouse populations, a debate for a generation here?

I live in a grouse-free zone. However, from what I gather, grouse target or can exist in a habitat in which a turkey wouldn't/and or couldn't venture. As for the decline of wild quail, I've heard every reason and combination of reasons from habitat destruction to fire ant predation. I suspect someone has or will soon tie the removal of rocks from the lunar surface in 1969.
Gil

I don't know how far north natural turkey habitation extended before civilization. I suspect that introductions have extended turkey range far beyond where they'd been in prehistoric times.

Certainly though ruffed grouse and turkeys have coexisted in the southern range of the grouse without causing the extinction of either species due to the presence of the other...Geo

The debate is beyond my abilities and knowledge.

I'v thought it over and decided that Gil's right; its the Moon rocks. After all 1969 was when the quail began to disappear...Geo

I spent 20 years and 100k of my own money on quail management on my land. I had four different populations of viable quail that had been steady to increasing for five years. Multiple coveys on each farm. Two of those years were extremely cold which under normal population cycles would have resulted in a big die off. I got lucky perhaps that while the number of birds carrying over was down we had two separate hatches the following year. Population was better the next year.

We had quail which wr were able to hunt and which did well. I expected them to continue doing well. But the damn State released turkeys across the road from two farms the first year of their brilliant Turkey management program. The next year they dropped them off on a farm next to mine and on my other farm without telling me. Populations of quail were about level the first year, then they dropped on the first two farms the second and were virtually destroyed by year three. I had nesting Turkeys but no quail.

It's a correlation I know but every effort to re-establish quail on those farms has failed. If I could do it I'd remove the turkeys and see if my quail make a comeback. Not going to happen. I understand from the States viewpoint turkeys are an easy sell. Big birds, easy to see in the off season and they can claim a clear management victory of wildlife. Never mind if that victory cost my poor quail their future.

Fort Stewart in Georgia is the largest military reservation east of the Mississippi River at 279,000 acres or roughly 435 square miles. The base was closed to turkey hunting until 1977. It was a nature preserve loaded with turkeys, quail and deer. I remember the days before turkey hunting was allowed it was nothing to shoot a limit of quail with good dogs. Turkeys were never re-introduced; in fact, the turkeys were cannon netted for transplant in turkey starved areas of Georgia. The military has been a good steward of the land; timber is selectively cut and the base has some of the largest stands of old growth longleaf pine in the world; not virgin, but old growth. The military burns the woods religiously, not to say virgins are put on pyres of fat lighter and set on fire in sacrifice. The quail numbers have been in decline for decades; can't blame the turkeys as their numbers are thinned out on a regular basis and they have always been there. One longtime quail hunter blames decline on Coastal Bermuda grass taking over the ranges and woods--young quail can't move through it. Coyotes, hogs, fire ants, and whatever are blamed for the decline. I don't think anyone can say for certainty, but it sure isn't overkill by hunters. I hear bobs in the spring with their signature call, but finding them in the season is another matter. Gil

That's a fair conclusion Jon, based on your experience. I'm just not sure it is scientifically correct. My quail in my personal experience were on the way out before GA even thought about turkeys. Could be the same with ruffed grouse, I don't know.

Armadillos, cow birds, fire ants, fragmentation of suitable habitat, shopping centers and subdivisions, wire-mouthed bird dogs, over shooting, unknown disease, insecticide, herbicide, and now of course Moon Rocks.

I just don't think we know or we'd fix it. Scientists are working on it. Maybe they'll find the true answer and bring back the bobwhites before we're to old to care...Geo

Later than that up this way. I had 10 big coveys on a 501 acre tract of my land in 1989.

SRH

At one time, not long ago, Texas wildlife biologists noted an eye parasite in wild quail and suspected it was a potential issue related in decline. Favorable weather a couple of years ago time warped Texas backwards into high quail populations unseen in decades. I get reports from SW Georgia of wild quail numbers this year reminiscent of the 1970s. Turkey hunters across the region are complaining of lower and lower numbers of turkeys. Go figure...

I too love turkey hunting and have killed a few with different doubles. Now, however, I mostly use my grandfather's and granduncles' Winchester 1897 for sentimental (and functional) reasons. The gun has many hunting licenses stuck in the hole under the buttplate. Some are now mine, but the earliest date back to 1917 in Montana. It's not done making history and stories.

With blackpowder and a Scott 10 bore


With blackpowder, a Cashmore 12 gauge and homemade call


All modern with a Merkel 12


And one more with the Winchester

Custom Fox I call the Abby Gun. I shoot RST 1 1/4 oz number 6's out of it. Out to 35 yards they are stone dead.



PS. For western birds I shoot a 20 gauge Benelli with Federal Heavyweight. Most awesome light weight combo I've ever seen in 30 plus years of shooting those big birds.

Appealing pictures, easy to see the attraction. I googled Nova Scotia and found this, in part:

"Proposed Wild Turkey Introduction
The province has decided not to introduce wild turkeys to Nova Scotia.
A few years ago the Wild Turkey Federation submitted a proposal to the province seeking approval to introduce the species here. Wild turkeys are not native to Nova Scotia. After reviews by two government departments, public consultation sessions, an independent scientific review and an assessment for the risk of disease, the province has said no.The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries says the province will revisit the issue if new information is presented."


"The idea of introducing wild turkeys to Nova Scotia has been raised many times by hunting interest groups for more than 40 years. However no properly prepared, scientifically researched proposal for an introduction had ever been received by the Department of Natural Resources (NSDNR). The Nova Scotia Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF) submitted their proposal in 2001. The Nova Scotia Department of Natural Resources wanted to ensure a thorough, fair and objective consideration of their review, taking into account potential benefits while at the same time ensuring that potential impacts and risks had been carefully evaluated. To accomplish this a number of steps have been required."

"The final outstanding wildlife science/management related issue to be addressed was the need for an assessment of wildlife disease and parasite risks associated with an introduction of wild turkeys from other areas of North America. A panel of experts led by Dr. Ted Leighton of the Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre (CCWHC) conducted this assessment. Their report, Health Risk Assessment of the Introduction of Wild Turkeys (Meleagris gallopavo silvestris) to Nova Scotia, indicates that, overall, the parasite /disease risks to agricultural animals and/or wildlife are low. We have been advised by veterinary authorities that these risks can be adequately addressed by an appropriate pre-introduction testing protocol which would be set by Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture and Fisheries (NSDAF)."

Ohio in the mid 50 to early 60 traded ruff grouse for Missouri wild turkeys To gain a huntable population in the early 60s. Ohio use to have a lottery of 1500 tags for the states , my farther killed 1 of 3 birds taken in ohio first seasons. Which the skin of his bird can be seen at the OhioState university wildlife study department. I guess back in the 70s and early 80 not a lot of turkey hunters as my father and I always drew a tag prior to unlimited availability of turkey tags.

Our, quail population went from a ton of birds to pretty much no birds our kill off of quail was due to back to back blizzard with heavy ice, which caused the birds to starve to death. I remember walking through the fields after the snow melt and finding lots of dead quail which to me seemed to be almost everywhere.

The grouse population from 20 years to now are "No grouse" Division of Wildlife states habitats, which in my opinion is BS. I think west Nile and other diseases have decimated our wild bird population.

I was hunting turkeys in Hazard KY a couple of years ago, and quail were all over the place. I almost forgot what they sounded like. They filled the morning dawn with their calls prior to the gobbling.

Say KY Jon, if you need some birds taken off your property PM me, I am just a few hrs up north and alway looking for a turkey to harvest.
Rick

Does wild turkey taste like domestic turkey?

To me yes, only difference is wild birds are not as round as tame birds. Plus I find the wild birds drum sticks as hard as nails, unless you slow cook them in a crockpot

Pretty much the same. I prefer to slow cook in a crock pot the leg and thigh meat and after cooking strip out the ligaments and tendons from the drum sticks. I save the dark meat for chili. A lot of folks I know filet out the bird's breast and throw the rest away. I used to smoke the entire bird after scalding and plucking, but now filet out the meat off the breast for frying in small pieces cut against the grain and the dark meat cooked as above. I've occasionally made jerky out of the breast meat. Gil

Yes, but there is a whole lot more taste to them. It's like 2 or 3 turkey's worth of flavor in one bird.

Cooking them carefully is key, they can be dry and tough as nails. I tend to breast them and then grill steaks cut out of the breasts. Legs as suggested.

28 gauge shooter, my land is on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. I have a small farm out here but not much for hunting sad to say. I hope to move back East in a few years.

I know land use has changed so very much since I was a boy. Gone are the tomatoes, sugar corn or peas for canneries, gone are the small fields with hedge rows and corners with good weed cover, gone are the fallow fields, gone are the hedge rows around every field, gone are the days when a farmer would shoot a predator on sight, gone are the days of less use of pesticides, herbicides or fungicides. We farm in a mono or very near mono culture way, with one, two or perhaps three total crops on a large farm. Big fields, no cover left along ditches, few places for quail to nest and raise young.

But I tired to get around most of those things. I created cover, created hedge rows, natural feeding areas with adjacent nesting habitat, weeded areas, brought in birds from other areas, released birds from game bird breeders, terminated countless predators of all nature. And truth is that it could have been a parasite or virus introduced which the quail had no defense for instead of turkeys. If I ever get the answer(s) I'd spend another 100K and the rest of my life trying to give them, (quail), a comeback. Very few things give me as much joy as watching the sheer energy of a young pointer working a covey or single then locking up on point. That unsaid look she gives me after the flush, what did you do after I found them for you? Few men are worthy their dogs.

I would say similar ..........but definitely not the same. Much like the difference between a wild bobwhite and a released bob. All of them are great, but the wild birds are greater.

SRH

Similar only way better!!

KY Jon,
I agree, very few things in this life make me feel celestial than a great pointer locked up on a covey and carrying a beautiful sxs.

If anyone of y'all runs across some of these in the 20 ga. #7 @ 1200 fps load, let me know, I want a box:
https://www.realtree.com/turkey-blog-wit...-loads-for-2018

JR

John, apparently Federal can't load them fast enough to keep them on store shelves. Apex and Nitro Ammo are other sources of commercially loaded high density TSS. Be careful eating a bird whose breast has been fringed with a stray shot. In teeth vs. TSS, the winner is the latter. At normal ranges, the shot does a complete pass through, however. Gil

Has that TSS been approved for waterfowl, as a non-toxic? It's so high that you'd have to make sure you didn't miss, but it ought to dishrag a duck in the next zip code. Reloading would help, I'm sure.

SRH

Stan, yes, it is considered "non-toxic". The use was popularized for waterfowl by Kyle Smith a dozen or so years ago. He sold kits of 25 shells, wads and shot in 20 and 12. Another man, Hal Abbott sold shot and would provide tested recipes he would provide buyers of shot who agreed not to publish his recipes. He came up with a fast 20 gauge load, 3", combining 75% steel 3's and 25% TSS 9's that was relatively inexpensive to load. Cost for tungsten shot has dropped in the last few years because of competition among sellers. Still not cheap but a great teal and wood duck load is in 28 gauge with 9/16 ounce of shot running 1410 fps at under 7K psi. It has sold for as much as $60/lb. to $35/lb. My last purchase was $38. Five pounds can easily fit into the smallest flat rate Priority mailing box. Re-sellers buy direct from China which has cornered the world market for tungsten (and lead.) Gil

Thanks, Gil. We'll talk some more about it by phone before next duck season. I read a good bit this morning about it on a Chinese website, and also on the duck hunting forums.

Best, SRH

A lot of hype about TSS...it's hard shot but not heavier like some would have you believe.

Bottom line...

TSS is for people that want to prop up their turkey hunting prOwness with dreams of extreme long range kills.

Well said. The reason I like to turkey hunt is to call them in close. That being said I do Shoot hevi-13. Not to add distance to my gun. It just patterns nicely and I like to use 6’s for a higher pellet count. Makes a great 20 ga load.

Nope, wild turkey does not taste like a Butterball. For years and years my wife Emily put up with my smoked wild turkey for every feasting type occasion. Then there was an uprising among the families!

My boys and I argued in vain; the womenfolk prevailed and the Butterballs now rule the roost. My filleted turkey breasts get fixed other ways and for other occasions...Geo

I miss seeing my carefully plucked gobblers hanging in the smoker racks at the barbecue place with all the cute little butterballs. The barbecue guy once told me my wild turkey looked like a pond scoggin in there with the butterballs.

A pound of lead shot and a pound of TSS, both size 9. Which looks "heavier" ("denser" more accurately)

I am not a fan of wild turkey “whole” or like a butterball. My wife would be a vegetarian if it weren’t for the fact that she respects the ideaology of game and fish. We make the wild turkey work wonderfully but segregating. Breast is typically split and stuffed - oven baked - stuffed with rice and or black bean mixes. Sometimes Mexican flavors some times mustards.
The wings, rib meat l, shoulders etc. are cubed and used for fajitas or grilled turkey salads.
The legs and thighs do wonderfully in chilis, fajitas stew or other things but I usually precook them I. The crock pot and then pick the good meat before starting the other recipe. All these meals work for the wife and kids.

If I could also get my dog to carry the double gun it would probably improve my success.

Mike

GLS;
Even though you listed lead first I assume the TSS is the bottle on the Left. "IF" pictured in order as listed the lead would appear Densest.

Miller, it was a "test" and you passed. There was a comment that the TSS was "not heavier". Hard to read his mind, but he obviously meant "denser". He was accurate in one respect: A pound of TSS weighs the same as a pound of lead. The sample above is 18+ grams per cubic centimeter. Lead shot hovers at 11 g/cc. Gil

Gil,

From whom are you getting your TSS? I've looked at the Apex TSS load for the 2 3/4" 20ga but they are currently out of stock and at 1 3/8oz per shot a little heavier than I'd like. I have a 20ga Ithaca 37 I'd like to find a good turkey load for. I think a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounce load of TSS 9s @ 1100 fps would be a nice mild load for the gun.

Marc

Marc, I pm'd a name to you. Gil

You guys love to hunt turkeys and I'm happy for you. However, I side with Jon.

Years ago I helped run a quail preserve in North Carolina. We explored all the theories you can imagine. It seems that in different habitats, different factors are more negative than in other areas.

I don't think anything was as universally negative, as fall plowing and failure to leave fencerows.

However, even a blind man can see that we've got more hawks, coyotes, and turkeys than we had years ago. Turkeys eat quail eggs. You can go in an oak woods and see where they've gone on line, literally plowing the ground for food. Quail nest in three-year-old sedge. It is poor protection against predators. And these days it is hard to find.

The one thing Fish and Wildlife has never understood, is that good quail habitat is the best habitat for all Wildlife.

Funny how EVERY special interest group says that about their favorite species' habitat.

The true is, of course, that there is no single best habitat, or even good habitat, for all wildlife.

Well I do say it, and I'll repeat it. But you have pointed out that was incorrect when I said all wildlife. What I meant to imply was game animals within a normally occurring quail zone. I'm not talking about varmints or introduced species. What I meant to say was providing food, nesting habitat, and escape cover for quail provide the optimum benefits for all the game species within that region. Even grouse will coexist with quail as long as new cut over timber is provided.
But when you voluntarily manage for other species quail are shutout.

volleyfire,
There are SO many ways to take this, I can't count them all, but you are quite simply wrong and illogical, even if you consider ONLY game species. But in short, wildlife management is not the farming of targets for hunters.

Wrong on both counts. Tungsten is 50%heavier than lead, and most turkey hunters are using it for the denser shot swarm small shot provides, allowing one to use a smaller gauge, lighter weight gun. Lots of walking involved.
JR

We all have our prejudices. I will admit to mine.

I always start out by counting the many ways from square one, "who pays the bills?" Hunters and fishermen pay the wildlife tab and built the organization. So far as I can see they are the only group in the United States paying their own way. Lots of little guys "looking for targets," wondering why so many decisions are made that are detrimental to hunters.

When one wants to truly understand the needs of quail, they need to go no further than the very well-documented estate diaries of Jay Paul Getty and Bernard Baruch. They didn't manage first for quail... they managed only for quail, and all the other game species thrived.

pArdon my French...but only a total moron would shoot a turkey with shot as small as #9....

Turkey hunting has been my favorite hobby since I killed my first spring gobbler in 1966, using a 20 gauge Winchester 37. Since then I have used a lot of different guns and types of shells. Though a turkey is a big bird, he has a central nervous system that is quite vulnerable. From the top his head to the base of his neck is about 16". Punch just one hole through that and he will probably die. Punch a lot of holes through it and he will die instantly. This vulnerability is the reason many hunters started using TSS; I've used it for 9 seasons.

In that time, I've shot turkeys with TSS in size 7, 8, 8.5, 9, and 9.5. I started out using #8 in a 12 gauge gun. A #8 TSS pellet is the same weight as a #6.4 lead pellet, and that seemed to me to be as small as I wanted to go. But over the years other hunters were having success with #9 and smaller, and they were able to do it with smaller gauge guns. I decided to try #9 in 20 gauge several years ago and have switched to it exclusively. It does seem like small shot for such a big bird, but the fact that we are shooting them only in the head and neck is the reason it is so effective. My gun will produce around 300 hits in a 10 inch circle at 40 yards, and that translates into a whole lot of hits in the CNS of the turkey.

I hope this explanation helps everyone understand why the small shot is so popular.

Coosa,
I understand your reasoning. Charles Askins was definitive on many things, but incorrect about the distance that number 9 shot would carry effective killing energy. Since then several writers have talked about the effectiveness of multiple hits. On the surface it certainly doesn't sound like the best choice, but I imagine you could tell with the first shot whether you were stoning the bird dead.

John, well stated. Coosa, your response was well reasoned and remarkably restrained for someone being called a "moron" by the likes of jOe. Five years ago the same topic came up in the below thread link. Coosa posted photos of his turkey guns with optics. jOe stated anyone who used optics on a shotgun for turkeys "should stay on the porch." Then someone posted a photo of jOe with a dead turkey and a Benelli SBE with a scope and jOe accused them of being an internet stalker and crawfished around sputtering lame excuses after being exposed. jOe accused people of using TSS 9's ("pixie dust" as he called it) "stupid" and ruining their guns to pull off "stunts". He said folks have been told to use only "throwaway" guns with TSS. He later said "replaceable barrels." Five years later and he's been proven wrong by others' successes handloading tungsten and now Federal shotshell engineers and two other niche turkey ammo companies, Apex and Nitro Ammo, openly acknowledge the effectiveness of #9's to be effective and reliable in killing wild turkeys by their production and marketing of the same loads. This development was based on the success and efforts of handloaders like Coosa and others who demonstrated time after time the ethical effectiveness of light loads and small gauges on wild turkeys shooting diy handloads of Tungsten Super Shot. With TSS9's, a .410 can deliver its payload with better penetration and count density in a 10" circle than the 12 gauge and lead ammo of old shooting lead shot of any size at 40 yards. jOe's fall-back position now is that it is being used only by folks to kill turkeys at unethical ranges. Now those who use it have gone from being "stupid" 5 years ago to now being "morons". Here's the thread of five years ago:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=324552&page=1
Too bad jOe isn't smiling in this photo of him, a turkey and the scoped SBE which he sheepishly acknowledged using after the photo was posted after he gratuitously insulted coosa the first time.
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Originally Posted By: coosa
I have not asked any custom gunmaker about this, but I will send the info to Ellis Brown and see what he says. Thanks for the tip! I'm also gonna send it to Connecticut Shotguns, but I suspect they will be horrified by the idea of someone asking them to build such a monstrosity. wink


Exactly...an unneeded monstrosity at that.

It's an abomination to mount a sight on a SxS.

If you can't see to shoot something as big as a turkey with a bead you should stay on the porch.

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Gil, that is an expertly executed take down. Despite being miserable with a cold, you’ve made my day. I don’t know which I dislike more....hypocrites or those who, in spite of overwhelming evidence, refuse to learn.

I shot a scope on a turkey gun one year that gives me a right to have an opinion about one...I also shot 4x5x7 hevi shot a few years...fellows from my local gun club can attest that the fAiry dust pellets don't all pass through.

You TSS bOys are the ones bragging about 90 yard shots with the crap...

I do stand behind what I said about it takes a total moron to shoot a turkey with #9 size shot...not my fault the shoe fits you bOys.

Apex Ammunitions response to my question about pellet weight....


9's weigh 1.2grs. 9.5's weigh 1gr.

9's are the perfect TSS pellet size. More energy than lead 4's and equal energy to hevi shot 5's.

My response to Apex...

A lead #4 pellet weighs 3.30 grains....a lead #7 shot weighs 1.50 grains....both are substantially more weight than the smaller TSS pellet. Energy is figured by computing weight and velocity. There is no way a #9 TSS pellet weighing a third of a #4 lead can have more energy than a lead #4 shot moving at the same velocity.....fact is a lead #7 has more energy than a TSS #9 size shot moving at equal velocity.

Put that in yer TSS crAck pipe and puff on it.

A nice 10 inch bearded tom turkey taken with a George Daw 12 gauge...

Us Southern boys just wince and look at the ground when we here some Northern guy refer to a gobbler as a "tom". Not judging, just saying...
JR

Which is it jOe-you don't like folks shooting and killing turkeys at 90 yards with #9 TSS or you don't believe they do it? I don't know a single soul who shoots TSS that takes shots over 40 yards. Hevi-shot and TSS aren't the same if you are equating the two. Hevi-shot advertises a density of 13 g/cc, but some report it is not that dense and some say barely that of lead. I have recovered a few stone dead turkeys with a few TSS #9's inside breast meat, but most users report full travel through. However, you don't understand or maybe don't want to understand the difference between pellet penetration and the energy it takes to penetrate. You confuse energy with penetration. Of course a #4 lead pellet has more energy downrange if is traveling the same velocity as a #9 tungsten pellet but that doesn't mean it has the same depth of penetration. It takes less energy or velocity for an almost pure tungsten #9 to penetrate turkey bone and flesh and disrupt the CNS of a turkey than it does a lead #4. How much energy or force does it take to stick an ice pick into flesh as opposed to the energy or force needed to do it to the same depth with a blunt metal object of larger diameter? I guess you know more about this than any major shell manufacturing engineering team who has invested thousands of dollars in R&D and set-up costs. Five years ago when you made the same comments, I thought you were just being militantly ignorant. Now after the facts are in, I see it is more than ignorance at play.

Nice summation, GLS. joE don't know, and he doesn't know he don't know.
JR

It's the most wonderful time of the year for me. My papaw taught me how to call with my mouth, shuffling leaves and making them walk past me. I'm sure he shot his turkeys with the only gun he owned then. A Winchester 32wcf or 32-20 as we call it. I believe his last one was taken with a 44 magnum before his death. He ate every piece of the bird! I enjoy going remembering these times and making new memories. Whether it be with a kid that has never experienced a hot bird in your face to dropping off an old friend in a great spot on his/her own to sitting with them I still get the butterflies of a15 year old boy. I can't wait to make and share some more memories this year.

Your entire reply is "ignorance at play"....

300 plus pellets in a 10 inch circle as you circle jerking pellet counters claim necessary to kill a turkey is stupid non sense.....

cOunsler if ones intent was to keep your shots at ethical ranges then why the need or want for a super hard tiny pellet...the intent is a lie that today even the liars are believing.

The 80 and 90 yard kill claims with #9 fAiry dust shot were pretty prevalent a short time ago...until people busted them for not being a turkey hunter.

If ones aim is off a little and the meat is hit with this hummingbird killing pattern then it's shot....

Show these grown men with common sense your hummingbird turkey patterns.....

And as far as the major shell manufactures giving in to this idiocy...that proves two things to me.

#1....The people in charge are as ignorant as the people shooting fAiry dust sized shot at turkeys

#2....Winchester has left the other ammo companies in their dust with their Longbeard shotshell technology and the others are scrambling for any piece of the market they can get.

If'n uwz women and girlie men can't tote a wittle 7 lb 12 ga shotgun....sit on the porch and leave the hunting to us men folk.

You bOys ever think of getting your wives to tote yer tuekey guns and dA'coys to the blinds for you ?

Frank, there you go with the porch routine. Did you shoot the gobbler with the SBE and scope sitting on a porch like you told coosa to do if he didn't or couldn't shoot off of a bead? jOe, I don't care what you shoot a turkey with. You can shoot the "dumb birds" (your words in another thread) with rock salt for all I care if it kills them. If you think manhood is defined by the weight of gun you tote then maybe you have a deeper issue. If someone wants to shoot a turkey with a lightweight gun and reliably drop it in its tracks, why should that bother you? I got rid of my SBE and Ultimag 12s. My main turkey gun is a single-shot 20 ga. that weighs 5.5 lbs. My other gun is a single-shot .410 weighing less than 3.5 lbs. Both are stone cold turkey killers of birds I called up under 40 yards. Again, if they do kill birds without wounding them, why should that bother you? You crawfished around about using the scope after you got busted with the photo. You justified it by saying since you used one you had the standing to complain about one. Have you tried TSS? If not, why do you persist in complaining about it? It appears you painted yourself into a corner with your nose against the wall with your rash comments five years ago. You would have been better off keeping your thoughts(?) to yourself this time because the facts don't support you five years later. Have a nice day on the porch, Frank.

Show these grown men those hummingbird patterns ?







Unless yer skeert to show yer little fAiry dust pecker holes....

My $129.99 Yildiz 40 yard patterns, 13/16 oz. .410 TSS #9.5 (420/oz.) top pattern 133 in 10" ring.
Change of primer in bottom pattern, 159 in the 10" ring. Bottom photo; weight of gun, 3 lbs. 3 oz. Choke by Sumtoy. Gobbler painting by Mark Larson. Brass by RMC. Red dot by Burris. DIY paracord sling by me. Dead hummingbird in photo below.







In zeroing the red dot, I burned up some TSS 8's, 254/oz. 120 in the 10" at 40. TSS 8's are overkill as noted by coosa in his measured response to Frank (jOe) and not necessary for my purposes.

My first turkey was taken many years ago with my Brno ZP49, in the Inner Coast Range of Solano County, CA.

I am usually in Africa during spring turkey season, so my next was only two years ago, in Mendocino County, using my Smallwood 10 bore, with black powder and brass shells. Yeah, he was a only jake, but even though I have caught hundreds of African lions with a dart gun at close range, that turkey with a 140 year old gun and a cloud of white smoke was my most memorable hunt ever.

Nope, not scared. shown in separate reply.

#9 shot from a .410 does seem a bit light for turkey to the casual observer. I guess one could kill a turkey with a BB gun with a good shot, but that wouldn’t be the ideal tool for the job. Many turkey hunters are going the other way with 3 1/2 “ 12 gauge guns with 4-shot. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me to go less even with dense tungsten. I’m no expert though, I’ve only shot 7 or eight eastern birds. In Texas where I hunt quail, those Rio birds are everywhere.

Yer the Yildiz poster girl fer sure....

Nothing like a picture of a successful hunt to bring out those folks who will tell you can not do that. My guess is Gil will soon be posting more dead turkeys.

Some people, when they are in a hole, don't have enough sense to stop digging.

Most people are like gophers. They got a lot of holes.

If success is measured by pictures of dead turkeys and total body counts, I predict SKB will end up raising jOe's hand and declaring him the winner, as distasteful as that would be to him.

I have no problems with responsible and ethical hunters using TSS or other alternatives to the time-proven use of large bore shotguns hurling large diameter lead shot. But far too many people seem to think new technologies can compensate for their inabilities to shoot well or call a bird into ethical range. We see the exact same thing with guys who use compound and crossbows at excessive ranges. Nobody posts photos of game they've wounded and lost. I have no doubt I can kill a deer with a .22 rimfire or a turkey with my spring piston .177 pellet rifle. But that doesn't mean I should. And I would still rather take my chances with biting down on a piece of lead versus a stray piece of tungsten carbide.

I agree with you, Keith. Also, I think one would be hard put to argue that jOe is not an expert when it comes to turkey hunting. After several years on this forum, it is pretty obvious to me that Homeless jOe is an expert turkey hunter and therefore his opinions on turkey hunting I find worthwhile.

Buzz, better has always been the enemy of good enough. If practicality were the sole consideration, I doubt we'd be using doubles, subgauge or otherwise ,and we'd buying our turkeys at Publix rather than hunt them in the woods. If I wanted the most firepower available in the turkey woods, I'd probably still be carrying my 12+ lb. Ithaca Mag 10 or my Ithaca NID Magnum 10 at 11 lbs. Is a .410 better than a 12 gauge on turkeys? No, but with certain limits, inside 40 yards and picking the shot at a stationary bird, it is good enough with the right load. There was a legendary Southern turkey hunter, the late Kenny Morgan who admitted killng over 500 turkeys. Towards the end of his life, he used a .410 SxS. He used lead loads with a twist: he placed a cork between the front and rear trigger. When he pulled the front trigger both barrels fired. I have a distinction I bet even our forum's God's Gift to Turkey hunting, Porchman, can't claim. With the exception of 28 ga. and 16 gauge I have an All Gauge Slam turkey hunting. I have successfully missed with 10 ga., 12, 20 and .410. If someone wants to hunt with an 8 ga. where legal, more power to them. Other than in this thread, there isn't much controversy among turkey hunters on the use of TSS vs. lead--maybe with rock salt. There are those who criticize Winchesters Longbeard's advertising of "killing power to 60 yards" which cuts against the grain of longtime turkey hunters, most anyway, who draw the line in the sand inside 40 yards.
Right now the big controversy in turkey hunting is the use of strutter decoys, some motorized, and "reaping". "Reaping" or "fanning" is where a hunter crawls towards a gobbler holding a real gobbler's fan in front of his face and shooting the bird which often will run towards the fan. I don't hunt with decoys or reap. Some folks with mobility issues need decoys and I am glad for them to do so. Those who "reap", I dunno....could be some kind of death wish. Frank, aka Porchman, kills a lot of birds in the fall where poults, hen or jakes, are legal in TN. That doesn't mean he enjoys the sport more than anyone here, and it doesn't give him any high moral ground to dictate what others shoot within the law or hunting ethics.
Steve, there have always been two kind of folks, those who say they can and those who say they can't. They are both right. Gil

What you say in terms of the tool you want to use makes perfect sense to me Gil. I say, more power to you. As long as it’s legal, I say use what you want to use. Personally, I’d get satisfaction from killing a turkey with a .410 too (also, I used to think it would be impossible to miss a turkey with a shotgun until I missed one once that was on the run).

Buzz, if anyone ever tells you they've never missed a turkey you can bet they haven't shot at many. My young neighbor looked at me like I had three eyeballs when I told him I had just missed one that morning. "How could you miss a turkey??" he asked. Few days later he had a sheepish look on his face and told me he missed one that day as well. If someone has never missed a turkey, a miss is just around the corner. Gil

My experience is the best way to miss a turkey is to hit a two inch sapling that was between you and the turkey. Somehow, the sapling seems to become invisible when you aim at a turkey...Geo

Gil....No truer words have ever been spoken. A can do attitude goes a long way in the hunting fields as well as in life in general.

I am only amazed that nobody seemed to bat an eye when LGF said that he had shot hundreds of lions in the ass with a dart.

LGF has been around a longtime. The fuzzy object in the right corner of the photo is a darted lion he posted 7 years ago. Catch and release lion hunting. He's carrying a .470 Searcy.

Well at least it looks like he is carrying his 410 turkey gun to go check on him. And the rounds on his belt to appear to be heavy metal.

Gil,
I have been killing turkeys for 48 years. And have missed my share of birds. But your comment if someone has never missed it right around the core is so spot on.
A long story short, back in the 80s my father has taken a turkey every year since 1963 with no misses. Opening day, he went one way and I the other. I killed a long beard within the first 40 min of light while packing up the bird I heard my farther shot, and I thought to myself "all right"!!! Then less than a minute another shot, then another, and another. All around minute apart, now I am in a panic, I got to the car threw my gun and bird in the trunk and started heading towards my fathers location, my father shot again, and in another min again!! I was on a dead run up a mountain side thinking the worse. When I got to him he was sitting on a log with a long beard on the log with him. And in total dismay look at me and said "it was nothing he never seen before, the woods was full of long beards dumber than a box of bricks, and I missed them all! But my last shell I finally killed one" my father missed 6 birds all in less than an hour and killed the 7th long beard he called in. I know this sounds like a BS story. But I'll swear on a stack of bibles it's true! I guess all his non misss finally caught up to him. Rich

cOunsler I hate to hear that times are so hard you hunt with such a piece of crap gun....

You really don't know when to quit, do you jOe? Gil has exposed you for the hypocritical, cowardly person you are but you still keep at it. You are a very stupid man who continually attempts to slander and bully other members here if you think you can get away with it.

Time to be quiet.

BTW, jOe. No matter what I say to you, you won't be able to call my employer and complain I have been threatening you, should I do so. Sound familiar? Get those gears working and dredge up some shame for your past behavior, you coward.

I think you are an idiot...and I can asure you the lies Gil has told you about me are not true.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=313622&page=1

Some people have convenient memories. This jar your memory, jOe?

jOe, I don't need Gil to be telling me anything. I've been on this board since 2009 and I can read. Sadly, I've read far too much of your crap. At least when Keith goes after someone, he has a point. Your posts paint the picture of a profoundly unhappy man doing his best to spread his poison.

This was a light heart-ed and interesting thread until you joined in. Now it's the shits. Well done there buddy. The only good part of the last half of this thread is the interesting material others have posted to put the lie to your mean spirited blather.

I was over in Afghanistan then. Has it been 5 years? Time flies.


_______________________
Tanks for the memories.

Porchman, I wish you would make up your mind. You said we could only use "throwaway" guns if we use TSS. If a $129.99 gun isn't a throwaway, what is??

Other than runNing into another joeja moron what's that thread suposed to mean to me cOunsler...would it be fair to assume you boys and gals are obsessed with me or possessed by me ?

Or just sick of you.

but that aside, I don't really see the point of a #9 shot turkey load. Is a 3 or 4 pound gun really that important that you have to use a .410? I think 20 is the smallest gauge legal in Iowa and there may be a minimum shot size (#4 is the max size), but I might be wrong. Regardless, we lug guns over hill and dale in pursuit of upland birds and it's not a big deal. Even when we carry that gun "at the ready". There is no easier hunting than turkey hunting, so carrying a firearm of some normal weight is hardly and imposition. A sling is always possible, and over a shoulder is about as simple for those that can't loop a sling over their muzzle.

On another forum, someone posted a video of someone shooting a whitetail doe with a .50 bmg. Surprise! it killed the deer. I guess I put .410s with #9 shot up there with shooting does with a .50 bmg. Saw a guy that shot one with a cannon loaded with grape in Wisconsin. That's another winner.

To each his own, but I can't say I understand it, or even care to understand.

Much like Joe. I don't care to try to understand him - I just reject him.

Brent,
Some states have had minimum gauge and shot sizes on the books for decades all of which preceded development and use of heavier-than-lead shot in varying degrees of tungsten based alloys.
As for why do I carry a 3.5 lb. gun for turkeys? It's pretty much the same reason you carry a heavier gun which is no big deal if that's what you want to do. My choice was done by myself without permission or approval from anyone else. It's the same reason I carried a 12 3/4 lb. Mag 10, or a 11 lb. Ithaca 10 ga. NID Magnum, and 8 lb. Benelli SBE, etc.--because I can or could; I had or have one and it is what I wanted to do at the time I did it. And each and everyone of them all legally and ethically killed turkeys. Pretty much the same reason I carry, one at a time, a safe full of 16 gauge shotguns upland hunting behind my two Brittanys; I have them; I like using them; I don't need approval or understanding from anyone else and I want to use them, and some even have slings. And unlike jOe, I don't see gun choice or a heavier gun as some kind of badge of manhood. Why a .410? It's the tungsten shot that makes it useful to me. With 300 pellets in my 13/16 oz. load, and whether some here believe it or not, it has been well-proven to others, including me and Federal, that it kills a head and neck shot gobbler just as dead at 40 yards as a 2 oz. load of lead #4 shot from a more than two times the weight 12 ga. which has fewer shot than my load at 268 counted. ( Science suggests that it is impossible to kill a dead turkey beyond dead. ) Another factor as important as penetration is the lead #4's run out of pattern density before penetration. If the above is taken as true, and you can take it or leave it, other than for nostalgic or sentimental reasons, why would I want to carry a gun more than twice the weight? I have other choices of .410's--a Baikal MP18 and a Savage 220B all considerably heavier than the Yildiz, but the pattern of the lighter Yildiz is superior to them. With the tungsten 9's, it's the massive shock of numerous hits that do the job on a gobbler's CNS. Many who have used the TSS9's have had this observation: The birds more often than not go down like a sack of rocks when shot without a flop. There is a total CNS disconnect and the usual after death flop is absent. I've only hunted turkeys for 41 years and I do it a lot. Georgia has the longest season in the country. I've seen a lot of fads come and go (anyone here remember the silent dog whistle?), but I pretty much am a traditionalist when it comes to methods of hunting: calling not from a blind but with my back to a tree without decoys or team hunting; just me, my calls, my gun of choice, and hopefully, a gobbling bird. My technique is described as "running and gunning", but with me, it's often "stumbling and bumbling." Despite having the opportunities with doubles, automatics or pumps, only one time have I shot more than one bird coming in. I prefer to come back another day and try and fool him again. Tom Kelly, the author of the turkey cult bible, The Tenth Legion, said this about shotshell pellet size choice to avoid the inevitable argument from others who disagreed: "I shoot it because that's the only load they had at the hardware store." Over 40 years have passed since he wrote that. We are still having the same argument, but not from all with the good manners of yours, Brent. Gil

Anyone that shoots a turkey with a pellet as small as a #9 shouldn't allowed to even call himself a hunter...

Pellet is in your corner cOunseler...tell us how you exposed anything but your lack of common sense and your cheap azz?

jOe is God's Gift to Turkey Hunting and this Forum. The other choices were locusts and boils. I'm not so sure the right choice was made. You can spray for locusts and medicate boils.
jOe, how'd your discussion go with Chris at the Southern? You, know the one you discussed with him in a PM that you sent to his employer by email in the above link? The one that said if you met him at the Southern and said the same things you said in this forum to his face, you'd go home with a wired jaw? Were you hoping he'd lose his job? And all that got started because of your constant online bullying of Adam.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=313622&page=1
Gil

Rich, the best turkey hunter I know had a season like your dad. Turns out his vision changed and he couldn't focus on his bead in low light. He cured that with a red dot. Were turkeys re-introduced into Ohio where you live or were they always there? Gil

Indeed it is. As it was for the guy with the Mountain Howitzer who went deer hunting (I believe he is on this forum by the way).

I just find it a bit ridiculous, among other things.

Which is not to say I agree with Joe - how continues to be an idiot.

jOe, I called you a coward because you attempt to bully people, not because of anything Gil said to me. Anyone who has been on this board for any length of time can see that. Bully’s are cowards, attempting to raise themselves up by denigrating those they think they can dominate. You are textbook.

I called you hypocritical and stupid because Gil reminded us of how you yourself had demonstrated those qualities so aptly by your own posts here.

Brent, To get the thread on track, what is your preferred turkey gun and load and when you killed your first turkey? Gil

Here's a few pages from another site showing TSS kills with .410 and 28 ga. over the years across many states. One interesting kill was by turkeybuster who killed a bird with a .410 and TSS9's that was previously shot with a nickel plated #5 that was in the bird's breast. Gil
https://www.gobblernation.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3120

I didn't realize I was off track. Still don't

I don't have a favorite but generally I use a load of 2.75" 6s in my grandfather's 97 Winchester, or a load of 5s or 6s over about 90 grns of Swiss 1.5 in a William Cashmore double hammer gun. both 12s

I was at an rabbit hunt last weekend at Vieana, Al. There were several serious turkey hunters there many with every weekend of the season planned out with trips from Florida to Texas, Nebraska etc. I listened at length to the man who looked after the place for the mostly absentee landowner. He discussed at length the new TSS shot and his success with it. His current turkey load was a 20 ga 2 2/4 inch shell loaded with over an ounce of #9 TSS. They had been using TSS over over a year and he had done a lot of patterning with it. (He was on his third pound of it) He had "ranged" kills of over 85 yards. He said that at that range the TSS threw incredable patterns, no fether draw, and was absolutely unbelieveable. He was my age 60 and used some type of dot sight. PERSONALLY, I think he might as well be using a rifle as this is not what I consider to be turkey hunting. HOWEVER, this was not bullshit whiskey talk as he served grilled turkey breast from the previous season to close to 40 people who were there.

Tyler, I don't doubt that the guy told you that, and he might have actually killed a turkey at 85 yards with a lucky shot, but there is no way he is getting a reliable kill pattern at that kind of range with that setup. I've been using it for a decade and have shot a lot of test patterns too, and I have never seen a pattern that could have possibly performed like that. Tungsten provides the most reliable and efficient kills of any turkey ammo I've ever tried, but that guy was exaggerating, and exaggerating a lot.

Here are my main turkey “big guns”. The first I modified six years ago. It’s a 5 lbs., 5 oz. Baikal MP18 20 gauge. After a few seasons, I gave it to a friend as a retirement present three seasons ago along with 20 rounds of TSS9’s. This was my first bird with it. It went down in a classic lowcountry wiregrass and longleaf pine forest of mature trees. Jerry was a 10 ga. and 12 gauge hunter previously. You couldn’t take this gun from him now because of the success he has had with it. The camo is my rattle-can paint work.

I replaced it with another MP18 20 gauge, but cut the barrel shorter to 25” overall with the extended Sumtoy choke and Ceracoated the barrel and action myself. Here’s a lowcountry bird I shot with it. The bird’s primaries were dark like an Osceola’s. It was standing in a few inches of water when I shot him. This area has been noted for Eastern and Osceola intergrades according to old species maps. These Russian guns are built like tanks and the first one cost $105 including shipping, but the other was a little more, NIB. I shoot either 1 5/16 oz. or 1 5/8 oz. TSS9’s handloads when I carry the 20 ga. Yes, anyone can call them junk but they work fine for the job intended. One shot, one kill.

[quote=coosa]but that guy was exaggerating, and exaggerating a lot./quote]

Agree 100%.
JR

coosa, JR,
I've heard of "golden pellet" shots over the years that have anchored birds, but as has been mentioned before, you don't hear about the missed or wounded birds at excessive distances. When I got rid of my 10 gauges decades ago, one of my guns went to a man in SC. The loads we used in the 10's were 2 1/8 oz big shot (BB's where legal) and St. Louie Threes #3, 2.5 oz without a wad collar in the right barrel. It was for close shots. The man shot a fall bird with it in the Upper Piedmont and killed it with a single BB at a measured 100 yards. A friend who hunted with him verified it. This story isn't told to glamorize or endorse it, but just to point out that some incredible distances are shot by folks who shouldn't do it. Gil

Thanks, GLS. I'm mostly a lurker, so surprised that you remember me.

I have just arrived back in Kenya and spent the last two days extricating my firearms from the police Central Firearms Bureau, where they must be lodged when you leave the country. Enough to put a guy off gun control, but I'll be back in the bush tomorrow.

Hunting was banned here in 1977, about the same time that most of the old nitro calibers had become obsolete and unavailable, replaced by the .458. Had I known what I know now, I could have bought up scores of British double rifles for next to nothing and be a rich man today.

Hindsight is so wonderfully sharp and clear.

Have fun down there.

I am not going to get into a "pissing match" over this but I just got off the phone with David Clark, Tom Kelly's publisher, agent, etc. They just returned from the NWTF meeting in Nashville. We discussed Tom's failing health and I promised to call him. David confirmed that results like the one I mentioned previously were not uncommon. He told me of devastating patterns from 410s at 65 yards. If yall do not know who Tom Kelly is then you should. I’m too old to argue about such. I would, however, be willing to place a substantial bet with anyone willing to travel to West Alabama to settle it.
Again, I do not consider shooting turkeys at such range to be sporting, ethical or proper. That does not mean that it can't be done repeatedly and consistantly with proper eqipment. What I have seen my son do with his 308, a cronograph, and an app on his phone Re: shooting targets at 800 years is almost beyond my belief. Only a few years ago, I would have bet the ranch that it could not be done.

My first turkey was with a 12 ga. 3 1/2” in 97’. Only used that gun on two birds and had enough of that!!! But that’s what everyone used back then. I now use a 20 ga. 870 with Hevi-13 6’s and 7’s. That’s all I need That’s the range I like to shoot turkeys. Is a good 35-40 yard gun. Still use a 12 ga on occasion. 3” Hevi13 either 6’s or mag blends. Or nothing wrong with lead #5’s.

Tyler, up thread I posted a Tom Kelly quote. It's at the bottom of post #505927. Years ago Mr. Kelly led the unsuccessful fight against legalizing decoys in Alabama for turkeys. Ironically, he was videoed a few years ago with some hunters fanning or "reaping" turkeys. They were standing on a road in full view, holding a fan and a gobbler ran straight to them. I was surprised that he would be a party to that after his position on decoys.
Gil

There's a rule of thumb that for effective and reliable hitting a vital portion of a turkey's head and neck, your pattern should be a minimum of a 100 hits in a 10" circle to establish the maximum range. This varies from gun to gun, load to load. With TSS, the density rate of deterioration is 30% reduction for each additional 10 yards beyond 40 yards. Theoretically, 300 shot into a 10" circle at 40 will be 210 at 50, 147 at 60, 102 at 70, and 70 at 80 yards, etc. I am only the messenger of this and not an advocate of shooting at these ranges. For my use, I don't need or want 300 shot inside the 10" at 40; the downside is a smaller than a baseball pattern at close ranges and slowly opening towards 40. The tightness of HTL patterns leads to misses at close range. It's like a wide bullet and shooting off a bead is chancy for most of us and why more and more users of it use either adjustable rifle sights, scopes or red dots. Gil

Tyler, I'm curious about your thinking here, purely from a theoretical perspective. I hunt turkey and I wingshoot. That's it. Upland, ducks and geese. I stopped using pump guns after 30 years about 15 years ago and have since exclusively hunted with 12 and 16 gauge SxS that are pre WWII. I have never shot the TSS pellet.

But.....if a .410 is throwing "devastating patterns at 65 yards" and they are repeatable with clearly demonstrated killing power, what is not ethical or proper about that? The whole thing about "sporting" and "ethical" is fundamentally about killing the animal and not wounding it.

I can't imagine having any more of a problem with someone who can kill a turkey at 65 yards with one shot (we all make mistakes sometimes no matter the range) most of the time then I would with someone using new advances in camo or calling. Might not be what I'd choose to do but.....

BTW, I have a copy of The Tenth Legion that a good friend gave to me. What a great book! A bit of an eye opener for a "north of the border" turkey hunter.

Kinda hypocritical....

Like I said TSS is for people that like to brag about long shots...

The guys the shoot it and loose turkeys and crack a tooth or two just keep their mouths shut and move on....trust me I talk to turkey hunters all over the country.

A lead #4 is more lethal that 3 TSS #9s...just a fact of life.

#4 shot is harder to get to pattern than fAiry dust sized shot...but with the Winchester Longbeard encapsulated shot technology that's no longer a problem.

I shoot a 3" Longbeard #4 with a Patternmaster Goose tube that measures about .710....and it's devastating.

TSS being harder is generally started at lower velocity than lead also and contrary to the TSS Cult it down gain velocity.

Ask yourself who wrote this rule of thumb ?

I suspect some out'e dOOr writer that might have shot a handful of turkeys.

I've shot enough turkey shotguns/patterns that I can look at a pattern at various yardages and tell if it's going to be effective.

I don't need to draw circles and count pellet holes to tell.

Gil,
They where alway here, but not in huntable numbers, the ruff grouse/ Turkey program with Missouri and Kentucky helped bring the birds to a huntable number I think most of the birds came from Missouri but not 100%
My father cured that season with a front and rear sight to later a red dot.
I have taken a few birds with a 410 and it was a joy to carry. Did not know about TSS, but the patterns you are getting out of that 410 is what other turkey hunters dream off. If i owned that 410 / load I would not hunt with anything else but that 410 turkey hammer!
I am thinking very hard this year to go after them with my newly acquired little flint lock made by Ken Netting. We all thought it was a 410 but turned out to be a 3/4 size 28 guage. No complaints here, I'll see if I can work up a load and find some TSS shot. I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.

Rich, take a look at the birds these 11 and 9 year old girls killed with blackpowder and TSS. The first link was posted by the father showing his patterns with TSS 9. The second link is a thread on his girls success. These two girls kill a lot of turkeys with their dad. Their father might be the person for you to contact about loads. There are several others that use blackpowder as well. Gil

http://gobblernation.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12637&p=136003#p136003


http://gobblernation.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10559

Maybe my 41 years of hunting turkeys and reloading for 45 years doesn't count as much as your experience, but if we are going to be objective and not a subjective "I don't need to draw circles and count...", the one thing drawing circles and counting does is allow someone other than you to decide effectiveness for themselves. No one is saying your pattern at 40 yards isn't devastating; after all, it is a 12 gauge shooting almost 2 oz. Do us a favor, shoot your pattern at 40 yards and draw a 10" circle around the most dense concentration, mark them so we can see, and count them for us. Here's what a 10" circle at 40 yards tells us drawn around the most dense part of your pattern: There are approximately 78 square inches in a 10" circle. A 100 pellets (evenly spread, and they never are) yields a theoretical 1.28 pellets per square inch. A thin pattern can miss vital regions in neck and head. It's not enough to hit a snood, wattle or blow a beak or beard off. Not only must the pattern be dense enough, but the delivery (aim) of the dense pattern must hit the target. You challenged me to show my .410 patterns and I did. Your turn. Show us your 12 gauge 1 7/8 oz. Longbeard #4 pattern at 40 yards and draw the 10" circle. Gil

I've always understood that if my gun didn't shoot straight down the road it moved on..

This moving the 10 inch circle away from the aiming point to see the densest part of the pattern is plum damn silly.

I stopped the childish circling jErking (drawing circles and counting holes) about 10 yearz ago....

Since this video was made I've started shooting the 3" Longbeard...


40 yards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBwjFvWa9Jw

50 yards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CflAvFFGXIs

While waiting for jOe to post his pattern photo, there are some who may doubt the penetration of TSS 9's at 40 yards. Here's a little experiment I did six years ago with it. While patterning a load of 1 5/16 oz. TSS9 in my 20 ga., I set up the target at 40 yards. The load has been chronographed at 1089 fps. Behind the paper target I placed an empty steel olive oil can. Top photo is set-up; bottom is result. The shot passed through the first layer into the second layer of steel. This is wicked stuff. I doubt if a turkey's neck and skull are harder to penetrate than this steel can, and that has been verified in the field by me and many others. Yes, it can break teeth, just like steel shot. Which begs another question, if TSS9's are so ineffective as a turkey load, how are so many folks breaking teeth on it?

That has got to be one of the gOOfiest things I ever done seen....

Did yo momma slip on that olive oil and drop you on yer head ?

jOe, that load is devastating, and correct me if I am wrong, is that lead or high density alloy? And it is reassuring that you left childhood 10 years ago. Gil

The pellet in the Extended Range ammo could easily be crushed into powder with one blow of a hammer.

A copper lead #4 weighed just a tad more than the Extended Range #4...I found that curious but it didn't effect their killing ability.

I shoot the same gun different choke and a 3" #4 copper lead Longbeard shell....with a 3&1/2" 12 #4 and a tight turkey choke the pattern didn't start to play out at 60 yards.

I hate to admit it and don't agree with the Winchesters Ammo companies 65 yard claims but have to admit there is no false advertising.

I have been called a moron in this thread because I hunt with #9 TSS, but it is really unclear to me why.

Is it because TSS is so effective that it isn't sporting to use it?

Or is it because it is totally ineffective and I am gonna lose turkeys if I use it?

It can be one or the other, but it can't be both. I might better understand the error of my ways if I could understand which it is.

Then you should have no problem in showing us a photo of the pattern at 40 yards with at least a yard stick visible to show scale.

Words confuse you, but photos shouldn't. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him think.

Would you like the yArdstick in the photo before or after the shot ?

On you or your TSS cult members any attempt to educate you'unz on common sense would be better served by talking to a tree with root rot....

Just do the best you can, Frank. I'm listening. I'm not the one worrying about what others ethically and legally shoot at turkeys. I don't care what you shoot at turkeys as long as legal and ethical. I take back my earlier rock salt comment. That wouldn't be legal or ethical.

Hahahahaha! Perfect Coosa!

Better not confuse them with reason and logic.

coosa, I'm confused. I thought you were called the idiot and I was called the moron. Maybe it can be both. Or can it? When is the next "cult" meeting? It's your turn to bring the snakes. It's getting harder and harder to find sacrificial virgins. Gil

I really was just asking a question. I've seen posts in this thread that seemed to be saying it was no good, and others saying it's too good. If I really am a moron for using it, I need to know why.

Who defines ethical in turkey hunting ?

Some flip flopping romantic writing turkey hunter...that tries to imply we are part of a cult.

Or maybe a famous out'e door writer that struggles even playing a turkey call...if I was counting the turkeys he's most likely killed on my fingers and toes not sure if I'd have to take both my shoes off.

Or maybe it's Ammo companies trying to make a quick buck...(hope their plan doesn't back fire and they have to replace gun barrels).

The circle jErkers that think it takes X amount of pellets in a 10 inch circle to kill a turkey...and have become so obsessed with it that they'd almost load table salt to quench their habit.

Or could it be the dA'coy companies making a killing off TV watching turkey hunting wana bees...

Or is it the crAp house blind companies that cater to people that are scared to face a turkey on their terms....

Or is the hunter that knows a turkeys brain is no bigger than a pecan and that the playing field is easily tipped in the hunters favor....making the actual hunt less sporting.

If you shooting yO little fOe hunad n tin with fAiry dust makes you fell like more of a man go for it...

jOe, you are the one who called TSS users members of a cult.
You are the one calling everyone idiots, stupid and morons who don't toe your line about what gun and load to shoot.
Why do you worry so much about someone using 20 gauges and smaller if the results are the same as using a 2 oz. 3.5" load in a 12 ga.?
And there you go again with the "man" argument.
Was it the "manly" thing for you to send to Chris's employer his offer to meet you at the Southern and give you an opportunity to say to his face the things your wrote about him and others (Adam) in misfires? Where your trying to cost him his job because you led with your chin and were scared? That doesn't sound like the manly thing to have done. Perhaps you could have apologized and shut up. Maybe that would have been the "manly" thing to have done.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=313622&page=1

This is funny stuff, this thread. It’s a bit out there now though. I’m so confused now , not sure what to take turkey hunting or even if I should go??

Buzz, be careful how you do it. Your manhood is at stake. Gil

Titanium or steel? Putter or driver? Or just run them over in the cart!


_______________________
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Hey jOe....do you know what "Transference" is? It's the psychological tendency to ascribe to others, what we ourselves are thinking or doing. For example, liars often imagine others are liars to. People who cheat on their partners often imagine the partners are cheating. It helps the brain rationalize behavior or an aspect of ourselves that subconsciously we know isn't great.

Your continued efforts to label people as less than "manly" whatever that means, has me wondering whether you have some concerns about your own sense of manliness.

Or it could be that you are just misunderstood here. Perhaps you are a good guy that just doesn't have the best communication skills for an on-line forum. Maybe if we met one day, I'd discover you are a hell of a guy. Impossible to know. In the meantime, I'll just have to continue using your posts as the only way to judge who you are as a person. I sincerely hope the real you is a better man than the on-line you.

Buzz, take whatever you feel like that's legal. Call them in close and take the bird at 20 yards or less. Pretty sure you'll be in the clear with both sides in that case. LOL

I’m not much of a turkey hunter, but I’ve found the evening before the hunt, go out with a hooty owl call and they will gobble back giving away their roosting site. Then sneak there before daylight....at daylight it sounds like a B-52 landing right next to you....and then, Bang. Pretty easy peezie. Is that legal? Or am I cheating??

I can answer that question, don't go. If you have the option, it's better not to do it. I was raised so that it isn't an option for me. I have to turkey hunt for as long as I can, though I am getting closer to the day when my health won't allow me to continue.

But as long as I am still able to hunt, I want to be certain that when I pull the trigger I am going to kill the turkey, and kill him with one clean shot. There are few things in the woods as sad as a wounded turkey, and I don't want to be guilty of being the one who caused such a thing.

I have hunted them for 55 seasons and tried nearly all of the commonly used types of turkey ammo. I have found that the tungsten gives me the best chance to make a clean kill, so I will keep using it unless I discover a good reason not to use it. I really don't understand why anyone would call me a moron for that decision.

Thanks for the suggestion not to go there, Coosa. I likely won’t go. If it doesn’t involve a bird dog and a shotgun, I don’t have much interest in hunting it anyway. And now, let me give you a bit of advice......welcome to the internet where people can say just about anything without recourse. We’ve all been called names and have been ‘put in our place’ if you have been on this site long enough. Thicken up your skin a bit.

You are not a moron. The best revenge will be another mouthful of wild turkey after a successful hunt.
Go forth, and slay turkey. I'd be out there, but, the Setter would just be confused.
I only hunt in the company of a Setter. But, you can and should hunt turkeys.


Best,
Ted

Just consider the source, coosa.

Thanks Buzz. I guess I did a poor job of conveying me feelings. I have a very thick internet skin and was just trying to offer something rational in the thread. I'm still not clear on whether some think TSS is too good or too bad. Both ideas have been presented, and I think a rational person would agree that it can't be both.

Rest assured I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it one way or another.

Good shooting to all.

I stand by my comment that I think that anyone that would shoot a turkey with a #9 size pellet of any type is a mOron.

That's just my opinion and I'm sorry if some feel offended by it......

Why? If he's within 25 steps (turkey hunters always say steps instead of yards), he's had it. I don't believe in shooting at a turkey gobbler past 35 steps anyway, and I know that distance perfectly because I either wait until he's that close or he gets away without a shot. The dudes with 10 gauges shooting at them at 65 steps is what I despise.

But nothing bothers me more than using a decoy. I TRULY despise those damn things. Made for people who refuse to learn how to call a turkey or where to set up for the best chance at calling him in.

But you have to understand something: I'm a severe old-school turkey hunter from the Deep South where it all started, and there's just some things I have bought into over the past 40 years about this sport that I believe to be worthy of adhering to, and I suffer poorly those who take shortcuts.
JR

12 gauges will out shoot 10's....

What really irks me is the grOwn men inside an out'e house blind with a dA'coy spread shooting a turkey then thinking he's done something.

You would really despise these internet turkey hunting bozOs making 70 and 80 and even 90 yard claims with TSS #9 fAiry dust sized pellets....

If they really adhered to the lies they tell about how close they like to shoot their turkeys at....then there is no need for super duper TSS shot in any gauge.

That's bullshit and you know it. Did you even read anything I just wrote, or are you here just to be contrary? Wait, I already know the answer to that...
JR

John, that's a trick statement he made. Qualified by what one can pick off the shelves at Wally World. Commercial 12 gauge loads may out shoot commercial 10 ga. loads because the ammo companies stopped developing the 10 and devoted development to the 3.5" 12. There are some niche companies who have hotter ammo than any 12. Handloads can also take advantage of the volume of the 10 ga. 3.5" hull and outshoot the piss out of any 12 gauge. Take a look at the copper plated lead shot in 10 ga. 3 oz of shot at 1200 fps. Gil
http://www.nitrocompany.com/ammunition.html#CopperTable

Joe, nothing you could ever say would offend me. But it you are gonna make such a dogmatic proclamation about a type of ammunition you have never tried, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to state whether it's too good or too bad. You continue to argue both, and that's downright irrational.

State your position and defend it.

No reason for anyone to get mad; we are just talking about a type of ammunition. I don't care what anyone uses as long as they don't wound a turkey with it.

Those loads Gill is spouting off about are over loaded and he knows it...and stuffed with small shot to make the pattern look good to the novice. Years ago I had a custom bps 12 ga.turkey gun by Tom Choke out of Louisiana...it would walk all over a fabled custom Bansner 10 ga.an acquiatance owned.

What say the 25 yard fAiry dusters...

Yes I read everything you wrote...don't let the TSS cult following fool you they are looking for the long shot short cut. They've been busted so many times for bragging most are now singing a new tune...and yes my SBE with a 3 & 1/2" shell will out shoot any factory loaded 10 ga...that I've ever shot. That being said I no longer shoot 3& 1/2 shells Winchester Longbeard 3" #4 shot let me get away from it...and I no longer shoot a turkey choke...and any turkey hunter that says he won't shoot past 35 steps is....well you figure it out.

I've shot turkeys with Rem.870s, Mossbergs, Browning BPS pumps, several O/Urs several with a Scott box lock 2&1/2" 12 ga. and big pile of turkeys with a W.C. Scott sidelock pidgeon gun with 2 & 3/4" #4s a Purdy 10 ga. and a W.C.Scott 10ga. (both choked hammer guns and killed turkeys with black and modern powder out of both)...a 10ga. W.C.Scott muzzle loader and a few with a 12 ga. Pre choke Scott hammer gun with briley 20 ga. tubes with 2 &3/4" #4 pheasant loads..and last but not least my two left handed SBEs I've killed turkeys with lead, bismuth and hevi shot and guess what they were all just as dead...but I'd have to homeless living on the street to be caught dead toting a yildzzzz just the thought of looking at that nasty thing makes me sick...

Too good or too bad?

Such a simple question, and one essential to understand the poster's logic, and yet he can't answer it.

Regarding the "too good" allegation. The load jOe touts, the Winchester Longbeards, is advertised by Winchester to be effective to 60 yards. Anecdotal reports of birds being killed farther have circulated. Anecdotal reports are also in about TSS9's making long kills as well. One of his beefs about TSS are the long shots folks claim. Shouldn't he be concerned about the misuse of Longbeards as well? Are we not hearing reports of birds being wounded by the misuse of Longbeards on long shots? Aren't Longbeards being used in blinds over decoys on fields, too? He says we aren't hearing reports of wounded birds by TSS9's and he believes it's happening. Why are Longbeards immune from the same criticism when he harangues only about "pixie dust"? If he's shooting inside 40 yards which he hasn't said he is one way or the other, why does he need a 3" shell with 1 7/8 oz of lead? What's wrong with 2 3/4"?
Now I don't feel I can tell jOe what to shoot, nor do I feel he should he tell others what to shoot as long as they aren't leaving wounded birds in the woods. As far as I know, he isn't. Neither am I.
And he still hasn't posted 40 yard patterns of his current load. He asked me to do so of mine, which I did. His turn. Gil

Shortly after I made those videos my gun club banned shooting the steel pattern board with shot bigger that 7.5 because a few idiOts were shooting it with buck shot and slugs...truth is I haven't saw the need to re-pattern my gun in several years and I'm not going out of my way to try and convince stupid people of anything with a picture of a paper target with an Olive oil can.

So give up it's not likely I'll be posting any pattern pictures for your consumption...but I can assure you my SBE with a Code Black Goose tube shoots the 3" #4 longbeard just as good as the 3.5" shell out to 50 yards and better at closer ranges...and the 3" #4 Longbeard shoots almost as good out of my Winchester 101 30" full and full gun.

jOe, there you go again. Your typical non-responsive bullshit duck and weave. I showed photos of the actual patterns in addition to the penetration photo into a steel can. You may have forgotten or just misstating facts but they are up thread.

jOe made the comment when he got busted on his comments about anyone using optics needed to stay on the porch. He answered this with he felt it was fair to comment on something he tried. I had forgotten that on May 14, 2013 in post #324770 that I offered to send him at my expense to his FFL carrier both my .410 and 20 gauge single shots with loaded ammo for him to use as he deemed fit in the fall turkey season and return them to me afterwards. Well, he didn't take me up on it, yet despite his assertions he feels free to comment on things he's tried but not otherwise, he blathers on negatively on something he hasn't tried.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=324552&page=5

May 14, 2013 #324770

jOe,
With over 250 pellets in a 10 inch circle at 40 yards with the below 20 or 125 pellets in a .410 at 40 yards, it would be the cumulative effect of more than 1 pellet killing a turkey with a well-placed shot. And yes, .6 grains in a small pellet that does not deform as lead does makes the difference. Note that I weighed and measured 8’s, not 9’s. I’ll have to scrounge up some lead 9’s to make that comparison. It has been demonstrated by both gel tests and KPY ballistics software (sold by numerous sources) that 9 tungsten super shot penetrates 1.62” at 62 yards, slightly better than lead 4’s at the same distance and velocity. I have read reports of large leg bones being shattered by the tungsten 9s. A buddy has killed 17 gobblers without a miss or wounded bird with the .410 load of tss 9’s. The .410 load of 13/16 oz. contains 310 tungsten 9s. To get that shot count with lead 4’s in a 12 gauge requires 2 oz. My .410 weighs 3 lbs, 9 oz. rigged out. My SBE rigged-out weighs over 8 lbs and I’m selling it. I prefer carrying the lighter gun which has proven lethality on turkeys. You might get by with a bead on a shotgun, but my 65 year-old eyeballs can’t, but I am no porch or decoy sitter nor do I hunt turkeys from a blind over feed plots. At my expense I will send either gun below with shells to your local FFL. Hunt one or the other on fall turkeys. I won’t need them at that time. You say you don’t criticize without trying something first. Now is your chance to do both. The 5 7/8 lb. 20 gauge cost $91 NIB and the 3 lb., 9 oz. .410 cost $129 NIB last summer. Far from perfect turkey guns with only one shot, not fancy for sure, but with crisp, light triggers and well-choked for the shot used. And I will try not to catch on fire so you don’t have to make a split second decision whether or not to pee on my leg. wink Return them at the end of your fall season. You game?

And y’all say us Yankees are crazy.


__________________________
I’d bet that Yildiz would knock the shyte out of them high phez over in Eng-a-lund

LR, we have to be discontented with turkey hunting as we don't have a heritage of hockey. Gil

I never liked ugly women and I sure don't like ugly junk guns...

Send me your ugly yildiz counselor and I'll be glad to whup it around a tree and burn it for you.

What does rigged out mean ?



Get a bigger bead...that's what I did.

Doesn't take a TSS rOcket scientist to figure that out.

Saddlemount and an older model Aimpoint red dot, extended choke. Gun is long gone. I swapped it even with a man four years ago for my 1939 Ithaca NID Magnum 10 3.5" 32" barrels that I had sold to him decades ago. I bought the gun out of Shotgun News ad from the late Thad Scott of Indianola, MS. sometime in 1978-80.

Seems I did answer you...

No thanks....my W&C Scotts work just fine.




And they do it with class....

Both guns barrels are equally choked (the sidelock 12 is choked .035 the hammer 10 is choked a little less than .030) making them as close to the perfect turkey gun as you can get.

Thanks for bring up the old post Gill I wondered what happened to these pics....the bottom photo should have two longbeards in the pic but my buddy missed his shot with his modern gun topped with a scOpe.

You had an early flat ribbed SBE...they were known to shoot low.

Discontent doesn’t last this long in hockey. Someone is usually laying unconscious on the ice by page six.


________________________
Off to brunch! Western with cheese and a Force Frappe!

Either that or an octopus.

. That was a good one, LR. No other group is as crazy as Southern turkey hunters. We all do it a little different, and many really believe that their way is the only "right" way to do it. Some of them are so crazy they will pay absurd amounts of money for a trumpet call and they won't have a clue of how to use it. I'm not being critical; more power to the guy able to sell them.

Since the thread hasn't gotten so far off track and turned into a gripe session, I might as well provide the board with my own list of things I dislike in the current turkey hunting world. I am not calling anyone unethical for doing any of it if it's legal in your state. These are just things I don't do and I don't like.

1) Hunting turkeys with decoys. I killed one years ago with the aid of a decoy and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I wish the whole turkey decoy industry would go away.

2) Hunting them over bait. Just go buy one at the store instead of doing this.

3) Shooting them with centerfire rifles. It's legal in a few states, but my idea of turkey hunting is calling up a gobbler in the spring and shooting him with a shotgun. Everyone else should think like me.

4) Hunting them with the aid of a dog. Few things in life are more enjoyable than hunting with a good quail dog, but if you gotta have a dog to kill a turkey you should just stay on the porch. I am really thankful that my state has always made this illegal.

5) Drumroll,.... And the worst practice in all of hunting is shooting a hen turkey. The spring gobbler is a surplus bird and it doesn't affect the overall population to remove some. Killing hens is killing the future. I really can't imagine how a grown man could get any enjoyment from such a thing.

Coosa,
Up North we are all most as crazy, as you Southeren Turkey hunters, (LOL!!) one of my fondest memories back in the 70s was hunting with Ben Rogers Lee. Big as life,good old boy who's second language was English (first of course was Turkey).
Ben hunted with a 10 gauge, big man big gun. And had the same rule of thumb, no rifle, no bait, no dogs and no hens. For decoys, not sure of.
I have been taking youth hunter first time turkey hunters to the woods for the past 12 years, and this is the only time I use a couple of decoys. I still call the birds in and the decoys keep the attention of the Tom off the young hunter, that are not always able to sit still.
Several years back, I took a good friend turkey hunting in NY. He was a big predator hunter, and hunted with a sxs Churchill 10 guage and Nitro Rays special blind of 2 and a half oz of 2s, that kicked like a Clydesdale! He took his first bird, no more than 25 steps. I think every bone on that bird was broken. I hope he still remembers that bird.

Rich, Ben Lee was one of the rock stars of hunting turkeys back then. He and others, such as Dick Kirby, popularized the 10. Lee and other Southern turkey hunters taught a lot of folks up north how we hunted down here. I met him in 1976 along with Neil Cost and a few others. I stayed in touch with Neil over the years and showed him around our woods at one time. Gil

Gil, sounds like we hung out in the same circles, i guess since we've been In the game for over 40 years our paths have most likely crossed. I picked up a couple of Niels calls as well.
Most Of the pro staffers used a 10. With large shot. I alway thought why and what for, since most birds are killed within 40 yard. I can attest I took the road to perdition from light loads, to super heavy loads, and killed birds with those loads and missed a few with the same. But find myself back to 1 3/4 oz of 6s from a 3 inch 12.

I bought over a dozen or more from him. In 1978 I bought 4 for $25 a piece and gave 3 of them to friends. I have two left; one from that year and another from 1994. Two of the men still have theirs. I don't know what happened to the other man. I don't use them as much as I used to, but will carry them several times during the season. Dick Kirby told me a story about why he stopped shooting #2 shot. He was hunting from a lodge that had access to private property and it was fall. He was told he would be the only person in the area. He had scattered birds and was calling. He heard the shuffle of leaves below the rise in front. The land was contoured. He knew it was a turkey so he pointed the big 10 in the direction with his head on the stock aiming and waiting for the bird to pop up. He saw red and white cresting the hill. He waited for the neck. A human face was under the colors. It was a lodge guide in the wrong area wearing a DU hat with the wood duck logo. He cussed the man out for being there and for being stupid wearing the colors on his head. He said had he shot, and he was close to shooting, the #2's would have killed the man. Gil

Thanks for telling us the story. I once shared a booth with Ben at a trade show and spent the morning listening to his stories, and he had a lot of them. He was one of the first to figure out how to make a living from the turkey hunting world. I'm sure it was fun to hunt with him.

He didn't mention decoys that day, and I've never heard if he used them or not. He was from AL and most turkey hunters from here share those opinions about the sport. Go to another state and the really fanatical hunters will have a different list of complaints, but every turkey hunter I've ever known had a list.

[quote=HomelessjOe]




This photo says a lot about a person. The ignorance and stupidity it takes to do something like this is mind boggling, but the gall it takes to put it on the internet and act proud of it is beyond comprehension. One of most repulsive, abhorrent photos I've seen here, ever. Just a sick act.
JR

Ben Rogers Lee was on the Mike Douglas show back in the '70s. Maybe others as well.
http://www.jesuskidzfilm.ml/database/get-the-mike-douglas-show-episode-16139-movie.html
His stories were hilarious. How he and his dad would listen near this home; a bird would gobble, and his dad said "son there's one too many of us here." And the story about calling a bird up by making the wire fence squeak when he moved it.

Explain what is sick about it John Roberts ?

One shy of a legal county bag limit... A nice Longbeard 3 jakes and a hen...and I missed one that day. First two the hen and one jake (and the miss) came earlier that morning from a pretty good bust (flush of a flock by a the dog) first one came to the calling pretty quick took about and hour and a half before I could tell the gig was up.

Took those to the truck and went back to hunting.

The last 3 kills, the 18 lb longbeard and the two 15 lb young gobblers came from a second bust in the afternoon about 3/4 mile away from the first hunt...

I had just sit down on a big log to rest and Buster came in and sat at my feet. I played a few notes on my trumpet call...I didn't hear a thing. After a short time I got up and started walking the long ridge finger to the east.

Buster disappeared then I heard him barking like mad about 200 yards ahead....I got on up there and he was running around and around this knoll...(this was before I had a tracking collar).

I picked out a spot beside two trees where he would kinda be hid beside me....leashed him to the tree and started calling and in short order here comes a jake....boom.....the woods is alive with turkey talk. I got another one within range and boom...they were circling my calling like sharks of a feeding frenzy yawwk yawwk...boom the longbeard. Once I saw him I could've shot another jake and still be legal but held fire hoping for another longbeard. A big woods turkey hunt of a lifetime...lucky I didn't get another my turkey tote was tested when I got those 3 to the road. 48 lbs of turkey is a load.

Splendid bag for a single turkey hunter in big woods with his dog...(do eYe detect a little jealousy ?)

Any hunting with a dog makes for more sport.

I guess you holier than thou hunters never shot a legal doe ?

Not many a Mississippi or Alabama bOy that ain't shot a doe deer over a pack of hounds or stuck a hog caught by pit bulls...

Such a sheltered life....where you'unz really from New Yawk city ?



PS....it takes a sorry jealous sOb to make a comment about a picture with my best friend in it.

I am total neophyte turkey hunter, and don't really have anyone to teach me the finer points. So a few ignorant questions:

Are decoys unethical because they make it too easy to bring the bird in close?

I posted earlier in this thread about my delight in taking my second turkey with a 10 bore hammergun, brass shells and black powder. Would I be a criminal, or merely a scumbag, if this year I used my 8 bore hammergun and BP? Just to have done it? Turkeys are not migratory, right? Close range, of course, and we need to use nontox in California as of this year, so it would be #4 bismuth.

Be gentle, please. Thanks.

Well, I don't really hunt turkey. But I will post this photo and the story. My Twin Brother and I had both just gotten back from Vietnam in time for Thanksgiving 1968. All the young cousins came up from Mobile....7 of them. Thanksgiving morning the women shooed us out of the house. I outfitted 8 of us ranging in age from 12 - 24 with every shotgun I could find went out to some woodland in Tuscaloosa County, Alabama...put them all on line and walked through the field. I didn't have a gun and was rather acting as the Sergeant behind the line making sure no one shot each other. Twin brother didn't have a shotgun either but carried an old M-1 Carbine (the gun with the blond stock) just to have something in his hands. (Check out the CIDG Montagnard tiger stripes).

Suddenly a 22 lb Cock got up and flew right down the line. All were using 8 shot and nothing touched the bird. My brother and I had been experimenting with a 5th Special Forces Group technique then being taught in Vietnam for snap shooting an M-16...much like an old gunfighter technique and he'd gotten really good at it. As the gobbler disappeared he snapped a shot off with the carbine at 125 yards and dropped him on the other side of the creek. The kids thought it was the greatest Thanksgiving ever and may have changed some of their lives (and to this day think he's a gunfighter).

Decoys are now legal in every state, so no way would I say they are unethical. They do make it easier for many hunters to kill one, but I've been told they can also scare birds away.

Watch a TV show about turkey hunting and they will probably be sitting in a blind and watching decoys, and that method of hunting is becoming all that many know how to do. It's a much different form of hunting than calling one up, and that chance to talk to the turkey is what keeps many of us so interested.

Good luck whatever legal method you wanna use.

Argo44, that was a cool story and pic. It wouldn't be legal today, but it was at the time.

If you can tote the 8 ga. and it's legal go for it..

Nothing unethical about using a hen decoy but it can hurt as much as it can help...the strutting gobbler decoys are another story. Most can attest that a turkey is really stupid at times.

I had a young man tell me he didn't need a turkey call. And that I needed to get some stealth...he equated stealth to holding a gobbler decoy in front of him and walking towards a gobbler in a field and claimed that most gobblers would approach on a fast run...my reply was he rally knew nothing of stealth in the woods and that tactic was not turkey hunting it was just turkey shooting. I also told the young man I had never snuck up on nor have I ever belly crawled up on a turkey....

The real question is do you want to hunt turkeys or do you want to be a turkey shooter.

This photo was taken about 3:10 in the afternoon...after I had been standing by this tree for about 20 minutes I slipped out the phone turned it on and snapped this picture It looks far but it's not an inch over 20 yards. The turkeys were too huddled up to safely shoot one of the gobblers.



This photo was taken at 3:45pm.




The longest I've ever let a turkey stand at that distance without getting shot at....I better check into some of that "stealth".

Sadly I didn't have enough "stealth" to kill his brother.

Some might see this and think I just stumbled up on this love fest....

I originally spotted a strutter with hens about 200 yards to the North (left) of where the picture was taken, I was about 300 yards south (to the right) of this location.

The hunt started about 12:30 or 1 pm. I called from 3 different locations, there was a Jake body guard that I had most of my conversation with (mostly with my trumpet call). I called several times on my box and one time when I gobbled at them they went wild gobbling but after 15 minutes failed to show.

After the last move I called one time semi low (a few yelps with cutts in the middle)on a Sadler McGraw diaphram (that I coined the Judge and the Jury) and they moved up the pasture hill to the position you see them in the photo.

What is wrong with that picture?

Too much "friendly fire" around here lately. If anyone here is a for real turkey hunter, it is probably jOe. I think he ought to reconsider fairy dust TSS shot though...Geo

Do you not know what a game hog is? Classic example here. Not to mention being proud of it.
JR

bOgus jealous John Roberts....if'n that there pile had 7 turkeys in it then I'd a been an illegal game hAwg.



George George George....

if'n I'd have had the old Scott stoked with magic fAiry dust there's no telling how many dead turkeys would've been in that pile....

Might've been some dead ones in the next county.

Well, Frank, after pages of posts it boils down to this: You can kill turkeys with a fancy $1500 12 ga. auto shooting $2 shells (which was never in dispute) and I can kill turkeys with "junk" (your words) $130 single-shot .410 and a $91 20 gauge single-shot shooting $3-6 TSS shells. ( Which shouldn't be in dispute unless you contend the photos of the turkeys in my photos got up and ran away after the photo ops or were shot with something else. ) I put my money where my mouth was when I offered publicly in this forum to send you my guns and ammo at MY EXPENSE for you to shoot and then tell the world what you thought, but instead, as usual, you find it easier to put insults where your mouth is. Were your fingers crossed when you earlier said you felt you had a right to criticize SOMETHING YOU TRIED (a scoped shotgun) but declined my offer? I could care less what you shoot, but you seem to care an awfully lot what I and others shoot but won't answer coosa's repeatedly asked question: Are you against tungsten shot because it is too effective or not effective enough? As he said, it can't be both.

I am far too terrible of a turkey hunter to enter into this fight, but I have to say that I have always admired the good turkey hunters. You southern gentlemen surely have a turkey prowess that impresses me. I have to admit, I do not have the commitment and discipline to put in the time and work to do my due diligence for a truly serious hunt. I'm usually torn between the turkey hunt and wetting a line on a cold morning stream. But as I said, to those who do and do well, my hats off to you...

I’d love to hunt turkey some day with a dog like, Buster. I’m an avid quail hunter and have 8 bird dogs, 7 pointers and a setter. I know what I’m doing with them after having my 1st bird dog at age 8, 51 years ago, but I wouldn’t have a clue how to train a turkey dog. I’d love to see a good turkey dog in action some time.

And this guys an Alabama bOy....

Feller better hope there isn’t some jumpy Yankee sport walking around in them woods. Liable to get “fairy dusted”.


_______________________
Sweet homebOy Alabama.

I agree with Frank's comment at the video's end. This "fanning" or "reaping" will operate on Darwinian principles to reduce the number of not only turkeys in the woods, but also turkey hunters who do this sort of thing. This is why it's a good idea to sit with one's back to a tree, wide enough so no one can shoot you in the back and so that you have a clear view of some nimrod coming in to shoot whatever is calling and to clearly give you a chance to holler you are there. I put "fanning" in the same category as someone in buckskin slipping through the woods during rifle deer season--and that has been reported as seen. I've seen videos of _______ (fill in the blank with appropriate name, card carrying) crawling through the grass with a strutter decoy strapped to his back towards a live gobbler. The folks that do this defend themselves as to its obvious danger by the lame excuse :"I am on private property and I know who is on it" Apparently they have never heard of poachers who will not only trespass, but who will also shoot turkeys with centerfire rifles where forbidden by state law. Gil

While I don't think I'll ever low crawl holding a turkey fan or decoy, I don't have any ethical problems with decoys. Or setting up on a strutting area or pasture with a decoy out either. Reaping (crawling up to a bird with a strutter) on the other hand is dangerous and stupid.

I know that fanning works though. First time I saw it done was years ago when a guy hunting with me on a pasture edge thick with palmettos cut a palmetto frond and held it by the long stem through the fence turning it from side to side. The gobbler I'd been calling in vain to came in on the run to the palmetto. It wasn't even a dead brown one, but live and green...Geo

Turkey ethics is just a matter of legal as far as I am concerned; Hell, we shoot'em on the ground! We use decoys for ducks, doves and even deer.

The most different type of turkey hunting I ever saw was a 30 minute show on hunting them in someplace like New Zealand, can't remember exactly the place, but they organized a drive, like with pheasants, using beaters, and shot at them as they flew overhead. I need to do a youtube search and try to find something on that. Lest anyone think it was unsporting, they didn't get very many shots .............most were out of range.

SRH

Stan, I've read some accounts of a "wild turkey" showing up overhead in a UK drive. I know a woman who hunted turkeys in NZ and said they weren't too wily. In parts of New England, they are a city nuisance. Here's an account from Staten Island. No need for TSS or Winchester Longbeards; a sand wedge or 9 iron would do the trick. Gil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC2pGd-RMF4

On the front porch this afternoon. Just in time for spring gobbler season. I had them fitted in May of last year when Russell was in the lowcountry at Bray's Island. Hart's Turkey Hunter snakeboot by Russell. Gil

Smart to get the zippers, Gil. What a drag that would be lacing those things up at 0430 in the morning before the hunt. I’m tired just thinking about it....;-)

There's only one boot for turkey hunting, the Lacrosse Grange. Less than $100, 18" high rubber boot that you can walk all day in while wading branches, shallow creeks, and sloughs. That Russell boot you just paid a LOT for will be full of water quickly where I hunt. Never worried about snakes in 40 years of chasing turkeys, haven't come across one a single time during that span.
JR

I'm sure he's real proud of killing those two stupid jakes, on video no less. Really sad.
JR

John, for wet work, I have a pair of LeChameau Chasseurs covered with Turtleskin Gaiters. I can't put on a slip on rubber boot because of high insteps and that's why I got the LeChameau with its baffled zipper. I have side-stepped cottonmouths and copperheads turkey hunting and one place we hunted was loaded with Eastern Diamondbacks. One area I hunt regularly I ran across a coiled-up canebrake while looking for Chanterelles this summer. It was within a rock throw from where I've killed birds. What you have never seen, has seen you for sure. Gil

I'll give a +1 on the Lacrosse Grange(s). Hard to believe an inexpensive rubber boot can be so comfortable, and long lasting. I've got two pairs of them. I've been wearing the first pair, Mossy Oak Breakup pattern, for at least 20 years. Last year, in Mack's, I bought another pair of Mossy Oak Bottomland pattern, thinking the older ones would certainly go bad soon. No chance. I believe they will outlast me.

SRH

I've also got a pair of Chasseurs I've had since the mid '90's that I absolutely love, have worn them during the cold months here for days on end. The average redneck looks at them like a mule looking at a new gate, but I couldn't care less, They are a good bit heavier than a Grange so They stay in the closet during turkey season.

You're probably right about who's seen who when it comes to me and snakes.
JR

Snake story, sorta: About 25 years ago I took a 11 year old boy turkey hunting, the son of a good friend. He had grown up with guns and knew his way around shotguns and had his own auto. We found one in the tree. The boy was to my right sitting with his back to the same tree I was on. I was calling and he was the shooter. With the bird within 50-60 yards, but unseen, the boy's gun went off and the shot hit about five feet in front of us. Mud flew up about head high in the air. Startled the bejebus out of me. Wish I could say I was the picture of calmness but after my soliloquy which was shorter, but bluer than the Gettysburg Address, I feel assured that won't happen again. I told him to be still and wait. Within 5 minutes, the bird started up gobbling and was walking off from us. We wide circled and set down trying to get in front of him. As we set down, I saw a copperhead about 8-10 feet away, crawling away. Word must've gotten out about the boy and his gun. "Let's leave it alone" I said and we set down on another tree. "I got to pee" said the boy. "Roll over on your side and do it." "I'll just do it in my pants" which he did. We never saw the bird or heard him again and that was enough adventure for me; we rode home; him with wet pants. It was a miracle mine weren't or worse. Gil

Chasseurs may be worth me buying just for the ease of getting them off. My older pair of Granges has a vacuum chamber hidden somewhere in the footbed. I haven't been able to find it, to disable it, and every time I try to get them off it comes on and sucks at my feet. The newer pair have a slicker finish on the inside fabric lining, and come off pretty easily.

Think I'll start watching ebay.

SRH

I've owned Alpha Burlys and Grange boots. For me at least, they both start to stretch out around the ankle and then they start to give me blisters. I've successfully used camouflage duct tape to 're-tighten' the ankle area, but that makes them near impossible to remove.

Are the Chameau boots worth almost 4 pairs of Granges? If they would last, remain waterproof and maintain their form/fit, I would consider them in the future. For me, at present, I look at the Granges as disposable footwear - wear for a year maybe two then buy a new pair.

I've heard that the older Lacrosse boots were made from better rubber here in the states and lasted much longer. But alas, this is not the world we live in now.

LaCross and LaChemeu Chasseurs are no comparison. I wouldn't trade my wore out Chasseurs for a life time supply of a the LaCross granger boots...no real comparison one is a battle to get on and off and in hot weather wet and clammy inside the leather lined LaChemue is neither. Gil them zippers look cool....Russell talked me into letting them put a zipper in mine...guess what when I got them I put them on and laced them up un zipped them and they would not come off without unlacing them.

As for waterproof, anything but rubber, is a joke. I've had numerous "waterproof" "breathable" snake boots that get soaked inside walking through dew covered grass, boots from Rocky to LaCrosse laced, zip ups.
In the early years of turkey hunting, I just went ahead and got used to having wet feet with with Vietnam era jungle boots. I couldn't wear the LaCrosse lace-ups as they aggravated plantar fasciitis in my right foot regardless if I had orthotics in them or not. If foot comfort and convenience have value beyond dollars and cents, Chameau can't be beat. They can't be left in a hot attic as they are rubber. Leather lining helps defeat moisture build up from sweat. With two pairs of quality boots, you can spend as much on boots as what a set of truck tires cost, but then you never have to rotate your feet. Gil

I put a pair of the green Superfeet inserts in mine and it perfects the LaChemeu

When I was a young Indiana quail hunter (we don’t have any quail to speak of now) I wore the LaCrosse grange. It is oftentimes muddy and wet in Indiana. If my feet got sweaty those boots were an absolute bear to get off. They did seem to offer some ankle support, however. I have a pair of LeChameau boots....NO ankle support in my opinion. I rarely wear them. I’ve gone to pretty much leather even when it’s wet. In the grouse woods, I’ve found ankle support is a must at least for me (and now that I’m older, for quail too).

I have Pure Stride Red inserts that do the trick for mine.

Ankle support seems fine for me...if I'm hunting steep terrain I'd rather be wearing a leather lace up boot.

After lace up hows them zippers working out for ya ?

I got 5 bucks says you lace'um tight and they won't come off or go back on when you un zipp them.

Frank,
My old Rockies were lace-ups with side zippers. I'd rotate pairs during the season with one pair the boot drier and the other worn. I like the zippers. I had a choice between speed lacing and studs on the pictured boots but they had problems of their own so I opted for full eyelets on up. As for ease of on or off, we'll see. I've always used a boot jack in removing my old ones.

bOy you iz snake sensitive....

Wouldn't pay to go hunting with me I'd have you looking for a new skin...

The way I figure if'n you got a clear conscience there's no need to worry about snakes.

Them ain't Rockys...they lace low on the top of your foot. I would've went with the Army studs.

You being a Russel man like me you should know that you always have to loosen up the very bottom laces to get them on and off...Russells are designed to be tightly laced.

Trust me you ain't going to like what happens when you lace them up good and tight and un zipp....


tOOOO late now.

I bet you wear them when you're dog hunting those fine young dOe deerzzzz

Well, you might think differently about snakes if you knew two men that I know who were bitten during the winter in my neck of the woods. One almost lost his leg. He was bitten leaving his deer stand. He just got lazy and didn't wear his snakeboots that afternoon. I've hunted with 4 men who have had bird dogs killed by snakes during the winter here while hunting and others who had dogs survive the bites but with consequences. Another man lost two Brittanys to gators. This is a reptile friendly area. Gil

Gil; The real kicker(s) with those Russell mocassin boots is they cost $550 and take at least 6 months to have made and get. You will probably like them, but.....

Buzz, I ordered Uplands and the Snakeboots last May. I got the Uplands about two months ago and the s'boots yesterday. My boots should last me up to the Long Good-bye. As for the time it takes to lace them up, what else is going on at 4:30 in the morning? Gil

I quit lacing boots years ago. I skipped zipper boots altogether and went straight to Muck slip-on. Step in in the morning; slip off when the hunt's over. No ankle support, but its not hilly around here so it doesn't matter...Geo

With clean living and a clear conscience a feller might be able to walk by all the snakes in the world. On the other hand, I seem to have an eye for them because I see them all times of the year down here. I hate snake boots and wear Turtleskin gaitors over my Muck boots instead...Geo

Just this hunting season so far, I've seen a coral snake, several moccasins, and both a small canebreak and a diamondback. That's 100% of the deadly poisonous snakes in Georgia.

Geo, you including copperhead as an "upland mocassin"?

No, forgot about it. I don't see them around here. Didn't include pygmy rattlers because I don't think they could kill you. Fact is the hognose snake (spred adder) is also poison but its fangs are in the back of its throat to kill the toads it feeds on...Geo

How'd that lace up unzip work out ?

Geo, that coral is the badass. Myth is that they can't envenomerate except between the fingers because the myth is that they can't open mouth wide. They can inject into a flat surface from what I understand. Gil

To be discovered....

Years back I was talking with Russell and told them I really liked my tall snake boots but because of some surgery I'd had it was too difficult for me to lace them...at his suggestion I sent them in for a zipper after I got them back I put them on laced them up unzipped them and a 4 wheel drive truck could not have pulled them off my feet...I was pissed to say the least they did make me a new pair free of charge.

Good snake is a dead snake.. I hate snakes, and am always looking out for them where ever I put my feet every turkey season, but most of the trips n the turkey woods I always seem to walk out with a lot of spring morels

Geo, I've never seen a coral snake in the wild. You weren't turning over logs looking for one when you saw it this year, were you? You are closer to the Florida line than I am which can make a difference as to populations I suppose although I am clearly in the range map's area which extends upwards through coastal plain of NC. Gil

I caught one in southern Mississippi it was about as big around as your finger it's head was same size as its body and it was 12 to 14 inches long...pinned it's head down and picked it up. Can't recall the color lay out and later wondered if it was a common banded king snake ?

I've never owned a pair of snakeboots. I was at a "wildlife expo" many years ago and there was a pen full of rattlers and a few cottonmouths, some very big, that the demo guys walked around in wearing the Rattlers Brand snake proof chaps. I saw numerous strikes to the ankle and calf area, with venom running down the leg after a strike, with no penetration. I called one of the guys over and asked him what kind of boot he wore under the chaps to protect his foot from strikes. He said any good, heavy bullhide boot will stop the biggest rattler fangs. They were the experts, not me, so I assumed they knew what they were talking about. I've placed my trust in chaps ever since, when in snake infested areas in which I can't see the ground clearly. A young fellow that used to help me on the farm was enamored of bowhunting in the early season in Brier Creek swamp. He wore chaps, and on two separate occasions he had rattlers hit his leg and get their fangs entangled in the material and hang on him, thrashing until he knocked them loose with his bow. He wasn't an excitable young guy, but I told him I bet his wash lady knew something had happened.

I'm sure that 99% of all snakebites to the legs are below the knee, but I can't help but remember a short article in a hunting rag, when I was a boy, that described how two timber cruisers were walking the woods one day, one behind the other. The front man stepped over a log and the rear man saw a huge diamondback hit the front man in the back of the thigh, a little above the knee. It's fangs were evidently long enough to penetrate deeply enough to hit an artery and the man almost immediately collapsed. His friend ran back to the truck to get help, leaving his friend sitting in the shade with his back against a tree. When he returned the bitten man was dead. Diamondbacks grow to as long as 6-7 feet, easily giving them the reach to hit you above the knee. Even canebrakes can grow big enough to hit you above the knee.

Snakes are a way of life for me. I'm probably much more likely to get bitten on the farm at work than I am hunting or fishing. Keeping your eyes on the ground ahead of you, and never putting your hands where you can't see is just part of my day. I worry more about my son and grandsons than myself. I've had enough close calls to be cautious, not sure they have.

SRH

I killed my last snake 45 years ago; a streamside timber rattler on Waters Creek while I was trout fishing. Since then, I made a pact with snakes: you leave me alone and I will reciprocate. About 50 miles down the coast is privately owned Little Saint Simons Island. Herpetology researchers at one time considered it to be the most dense population of Eastern Diamondbacks in the world. About 30 miles to the north is a barrier island in the mouth of Port Royal Sound, SC. I was told the story about a man who was on the beachfront with his retreiver that strayed into the tall grass and was killed by an EDB. The dog's owner went home, got a Calcutta canepole and spent the day shaking the grass with it; when he heard a Big Buzzer, he shot it dead. He cleared out a lot of snakes. Shrimper friends tell stories of seeing the big snakes offshore swimming.
Stan, I recall reading the same story about the instant killing of the timber cruiser in either F&S or Sports Afield years ago. A big EDB carries a huge dose of venom. From what a vet told me, the canebrake (timber) rattler's venom is a mix of neuro and hemotoxins and is more troublesome than an EDB but for the volume of the latter's venom.
At one time I was lazy about wearing leggings or snakeboots while turkey hunting. Then Dale called to tell me that earlier in the morning where we hunt, he killed a bird. He went to pick it up and it flopped. A camoflaged canebrake lying in the leaves, a big one, struck the flopping turkey as Dale bent over to pick it up. Neither Dale nor I have been without snake protection since. Dale may have also resorted to wearing Depends for a brief period. Last year while cleaning out a decorative goldfish pond, he was pulling leaves out from the circulating pump. An 8-10" long cottonmouth latched on to his index finger. Not much venom injected but he lost flesh where it bit and all the Dr. could do was prescribe antibiotics and something to relieve the swelling. He said it hurt like hell.

Gil

jOe, red on yellow kill a fellow, red on black poison lack.

Gil I saw this one crossing a sandy bed road on my hunting club at the Alapaha River. About the size of the one jOe described.

You mentioned copperheads. We're supposed to have them, but a juvenile moccasin and a copperhead look so similar I can't distinguish without killing it and keying it out. I don't kill them and I'll likely regret that one day...Geo

Oh, Willy and I did our annual last day of the season wild bird hunt yesterday. I might as well have left the 20ga Scott home, but I did see two big longbeards while driving down a two-path road in the flatwoods.

Unlike rattlesnake or Cottonmouth those aren't really dangerous because you have to basically pick one up in hands to get bitten, yes? The best advice to give to kids is never to pick up any snakes.

Jag, coral snakes hang out in brushpiles so you don't want to put your hands anywhere you can't see if you can help it. They are straight neuro-toxin like the cobra.

My aunt told me a story once of a black man on the plantation in Alabama she grew up on. He was bitten on the finger by one in the garden and immediately used the axe he had to cut off the finger...Geo

I hate to keep talking about snakes, but your story quoted above brought back a bad memory of mine. When I was about 15 we were hunting the railroad tracks for rabbits. I went down off the grade into a wet area to get a look at a swamp rabbit the beagles couldn't push up onto the tracks. I got bit by a water moccasin.

The fangs were stopped by my leather boot, but got tangled in my blue jeans. I kicked and the snake came loose and went high over the brush. We cut cut him into three pieces with our shotguns before he hit the ground...Geo

My chaps protect my legs up to my family jewels which, when in close contact with a big rattler or cottonmouth, are drawn up pretty tight.

SRH

I stepped within a foot of this guy in TX last spring. He made a hissing sound and went about 20' and then coiled up. Sorry I didn't get closer and make a better picture, but that snake was so quick I wasn't getting any closer.



I guess I agree with jOe on snakes; I don't own any snake boots or leggings and never have. We don't have any EDB Rattlers in my area, and I can't remember ever seeing a timber rattler while turkey hunting.

It's a good thing rattlers are not all that ill-tempered, and they're really not. They will leave almost every time if given the chance. Worst case scenario is if you get too close to him immediately before he's shedded his skin. He is temporarily blind, realizes it, and takes no chances with danger. And yes, he can strike you while blind. He is guided by his pits.

Now cottonmouths, they can be extremely ill-tempered, and will not usually retreat. Experts say they are not aggressive, but I have had big ones try their best to get in the paddle boat with me, while swimming around it. A good cedar boat paddle brought to bear edgeways across their back changes their mind pretty fast.

SRH

Give me a hint where the snake is in the photo. Gil

Just above top middle...Geo

Is it at the bottom of photo in the middle? I see something black and curvy. Gil

no...Geo

Where I said, coiled up...Geo

Jeez Gil, you must be too used to snakes. That snake that coosa showed damn near jumped off the screen at me.

Sorry Gil, just now checking back in, but Woody found him for you. I think that is a Western Diamondback, but I'm not really knowledgeable on TX snakes. He sure did get my attention that morning. I would buy some snake protection if I saw many like him.

A close friend is one of the world's top venomous snake experts. He says that the majority of rattlesnake bites in the US are to young men playing with them to impress young women. Needless to say, most of the time drink has been taken.

The most common poisonous snake where I work in Kenya is the puff adder, and the ones around here are unusually large - a big female can be six feet long and a foot across. They are well camouflaged and very sluggish, easy to step on in long grass. Same friend was describing their hemotoxic venom, evolved in part to digest large prey like bunnies from the inside. His memorable description was "If one bites you, an hour later you can pour your leg into a bucket." Between puff adders, buffalo and elephants, a walk in the bush keeps you awake. However, although I have lost a number of friends to buffalo and one just last month to an elephant, the only puff adder death I recall was ... a foolish young man playing with one.

LGF, the young man and drink combination is usually accompanied by "hey, watch this."
This kid won the Darwin award a few years ago:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/man-bitten-kisses-venomous-snake-30522621

Here's the canebrake I saw while I was looking for chanterelles in June. I've hunted turkeys in this same location since the 1970's. The snake is in a coil the size of an old Buick hubcap. He looked like he'd recently shed as the colors were bright and defined. He's in the center, sunning, 1/3 down from the top just above and below the shadows. The only markings visible are four dark triangular shapes in two pairs at right angles. He's light tan. I wasn't inclined to do anything closer. Gil

yOu a snake magnet...

Has anyone used these? looks to be a promising offering and waterproof "to boot".

https://www.amazon.com/LaCrosse-Mens-Add...;th=1&psc=1

I'm happy where I hunt turkey there are no snakes, just grizzly and black bear. I nearly stepped on one curled up around the base of a large evergreen tree on the side of a steep slope covered in moss and pine needles. He was a brown phased color and blended in perfectly.

Sorry posted twice.

Caleb, I had a pair of Lacrosse lace/zip-ups that were alleged to be waterproof and breathable. Either first or second trip in them and they leaked like a sieve and worst of all, aggravated my plantar fasciitis condition that had been problem free for a long time. Most uncomfortable foot wear I've ever worn. Other folks like their products. I threw mine away just the other day. I don't trust "breathable" boots to be waterproof; I've never had a pair that was. Gil

How's them zippers working out ?

Still can't find it