Can anyone tell me where I could find info on a doublegun
that I have. It is a Kettner double O/U with a combination
20 ga and 6.5 x 56r . Very interesting gun. It has carved
Cape Buffalo horn trigger guard and butt plate. I can not
seem to find anyone that knows anything about this firearm.

Thanks

Mike

Mike, Kettner was/is a retailer in Germany. They bought guns and had their names put on them. They are an upper level retailer. They have a very good store in Augsburg. Most of their stuff is top notch. There might be some clues to who made you gun. Take some photos of it and all of the proofmarks and post them. Someone might be able to pick out something that tells all.

thanks Mike. I will try to do that today sometime.

not sure of the procedure to upload photos. Will work on
figuring this out today as well.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...0df792#Post6339

Pete

If you need to, email them to me and I'll post them for you. harrell68@acsalaska.net

Is it marked E. (Eduard) or F. (Franz) Kettner?

It is marked on the rib;

FIRMA FRANZ KETTNER, KOLN-SUHL

In taking the forend wood off, it is marked 6.4mm x 58

I posted earlier that it was 6.5mm x 56. I made a mistake

the receiver is engraved with 2 hares on the left side and a fox on the right side.

making a try at uploading photos
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j26/terrierman/DCP_4230.jpg

I guess that got a link but no photo.

Franz Kettner had shops in both Köln (Cologne) 1850 and Suhl circa 1910 until WWII.


Eduard Kettner of Köln (Cologne) established in 1865 with a factory in Suhl, I’m not sure when they stopped making guns. This company was in business a few years ago with retail stores in more than one German city. Not sure of the relationship between the two but both are listed in the early years as gunmakers.

I can see the one picture just fine,(nice looking gun) take off the barrels and take a photos of all the proof-marks on the barrels and the action please.

not sure my camera has the ability to take a photo of good enough quality close up of the proof marks.

An additional engraving on the barrels under the forend wood
if I can see it correctly says

C KRUPP - LAUTSIKHL ?

NOT SURE I COULD READ THE LAST WORD

Here is his pic. For close up pics use the cameras macro setting.

Very rustic piece, sir. L..... means barrel+ steel, firma means Company in Polish and Italian.

thank you Reb for posting the photo. What would this combo gun be called technically? Would it be to obvious? Combination Gun

The person I got it from called it a game gun. Used for hunting camp meat for safari, game hens and or small antelope like Spring Boc.

I will work on getting more photos to post. This photo above was taken with the closeup setting on the camera.

Back to this double combination gun. I have an acquaintance that has been wanting to purchase this firearm from me for a good while now. How would I be able to estimate the real value of such a firearm? I would consider parting with this gun but like a lot of people, do not want to find out after the fact that I sold a $25,000 gun for $5,000.

I suspect somewhere around $16-2200 for value,used to be able to find them around 1000 but they have bumped up a bit.

Nice gun, but it's simply not a $25,000 gun, not even a $5,000 gun. IMO Dave K might be just a tad low with his estimate of value, but not a lot. Perhaps $2,500 or so would be my opinion.

Are those claw mounts I see on top of the barrel?

I was told some years ago that they are a type of claw mount. I am not really familiar with them however.

It's difficult to tell from this pic, but the cuts may be there for the rear base but I don’t see the base unless the mount was a good bit forward than typical. I agree that $2250 to $2500 USD are typical prices realized for Blitz combos. Lately I haven’t seen any for less that $2k and anything near $2k USD seems to move. There are only about ½ of a handful of German examples that would realize $25k USD from this period and a couple examples would be the Drilling taken from the Sauer Villa and Mr. Jone’s latest acquisition: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4514S . Franz Kettner(from 1840 to the 1960s there was a Sr. & a Jr. followed by a Eduard Franz Kettner) was a name used for a couple generations and Ed did have a gewehrfabrik in Köln a. Rh.(on Rhine River) und Suhl i.(in) Th.(Thuringia) as per his circulars, but actually he was a firearms merchant and outfitter. Franz Sr. did work for Franz Otto Julius Kettner in the 1880s, but left for greener pastures. From the one pic it looks to be a Blitz action with a Hornbugel(horn triggerbow). It resembles a Heym Model 137 or E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 580(Model 581 was an A&D). Does it have a cartridge trap in the butt? I also assume it has a single crossbolt lock-up? Additional pics would be of assistance especially on the underside of the tubes. Is it chambered for the 6.5X58R Sauer(S&S)?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It is chambered for the 6.5 x 58r Sauer. I have several boxes of custom made ammunition for this rifle as well. I could never figure out how to successfully post pictures on this forum. I will take additional photos today and try to upload them. I may have to email them to another member of this forum that can post them if it doesn't work. Do you need a photo of the bottom of the tubes without the forguard?

Yes, a pic of the flats/underside of the tubes, capturing the marks up to the forend lug without the forend attached.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

They look more like Krieghoff slide-on mount bases to me.

Best,

C.

took some additional photos. Is there a place to explain how these need to be uploaded?

Look at the top of the threads at the "Photo Posting Primer" thread.

Kofoed:

You could be correct and it was sourced from Krieghoff.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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OK, here are the additional photos. Was not sure of the close up capabilities of my camera. Hope you can identify some of the proof marks.

Mike

Made and proofed in Suhl in November 1935. The initials of the craftsmen may have been worked off or are near the serial number between the forend lug and the flats. For some reason the head of the stock has been neatly pinned.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Initials of the craftsman may have been stamped on the upper barrel?. Not sure if that is valuable information or not in the overall picture of this gun...

Looks as if there may be a repair to the stock in the head, there's a pin through a brass escutcheon there. That's a fairly common repair. This type of repair can be hidden under a small filet of wood on each side which looks better than the exposed pin, but matching the wood and making the repair well enough to hide it pretty well takes more skill than this type of repair does.

OK, now that you can see the basics, is the general consensus still approximately $2,500 in value?

Probably on the lower also. I think it is important due to the fact that probably just a handfull of Suhl craftsmen made similar combos and firearms merchants had their name stamped atop the top rib. It gives more insight as to how the whole of Germany sourced Suhl(now for you Zella Saint Blasii & Mehlis fans, of which I am one, it is implied) for almost all arms. Then again there are going to be tradeguns made by the same Suhl craftsmen which won't realize the same price as a Merkel or Simson, etc.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I will examine both barrels today to see if the proof marks are matching. Some are so small that even with a magnifying glass, they are hard to see. Will post my findings when I have looked. Thanks for all the feedback on this.

Mike

Most of the proof marks are repeated and stamped on both barels.
A stamp with a crown over a U is stamped on both barrels and stamps with a crown over a G and a crown over an N are stamped on the lower rifle barrel only. There are also initials LK stamped on the bottom of the lower barrel between the lug and the flats.

Yes, each tube experienced proof and the initials "LK" would be for a barrel finisher or fitter depending on the location of the intials(early on closer to the flats was the tube maker/barrel fella but that may have changed with time and mechanization). My 1st guess is that it probably would be one of the Kelber boys who early on invested in mechanized barrel making machines or automated barrel drawing devices. Louis Kelber of Suhl was an expert in the tube making field in the 1930s. If it is a "L", and possibly not a script "F", another possiblity is one the Klett boys, namely Louis Klett who owned Heinrich Christoph Klett & Sohne of Zella-Mehlis in the 1930s, which would mate with your 1935 proof date. But for some reason I seem to recall he as listed as a stocker during that period but being from a long line of tube makers, tube making just may have been his other area of expertise along with stocking. Thanks for the effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello All that have replied to this string.
I will likely be posting this gun on Gunbroker as well as the link on this forum for guns available for sale. Anyone having
any interest in this nice double send me a note.

Mike

The party that originally wanted this piece was not able to find the funds to make the purchase. Over the next day or so I will list this item for sale on this forum. If anyone might have an interest or know of someone that may, have them contact me.

Regards

Mike

Well a quick update on this Cape Gun. Apparently $3,000 is above market for this fine piece so adjusting the asking price under $2500. or best offer. Have 2 boxes of custom ammunition that would go with it as well.

In Australia it would sell like hot cakes @$2500

Check out www.usedguns.com.au to see the inflated prices we pay!

Not sure what the export regs would be to send it Downunder. Could always look into it if someone were interested