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Posted By: Tamid Interesting Leige fact - 03/10/18 11:57 PM
Before 1914, only two companies were able to entirely manufacture weapons in workshops...in Leige..: the FN and Établissements Pieper.

Source: the remarkable work of Claude GAIER, Doctor of History and Director of the LIEGE ARMS Museum, Five centuries of Arms manufacturing in Liège, Editions du Perron, Alleur (Belgium)

With all the trade guns from Belgium it would be interesting to understand how many were from those 2 companies and how many produced in other 'states' of Belgium
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 01:38 AM
Talk about a complicated and in some aspects convoluted gun industry. Yet some of their 'trade' guns are perfect examples of a world class game gun.

So are we saying that numerous unnamed anonymous shops produced these game guns?
Posted By: skeettx Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 02:04 AM
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20gb.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunsmith
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 03:09 AM
England was little different with only a handful of shops able to manufacture the entire gun. I dare say Scott, and Webley had a hand in the majority of firearms produced outside of the boutique shops in London. And even they probably tipped their hats to Scott and/or Webley from time to time.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 04:01 AM
There was a lot more builders in England then just two and merely procuring roughed out forgings from the cottage industry doesn't necessarily mean that the name stamped on the barrel did not build that gun.

But, at least in England we have a name whereas when we look at Belgium all we have is a masterpiece of a game gun and no markings, no name, no stampings as to who actually built it.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 12:01 PM
That's the way the firearms industry worked in several European countries back then. A lot of no name guns came out of France as well, made by St. Etienne independent outworkers. Either that or the name on the gun was that of the shop that sold it rather than the "company" that made it.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 12:26 PM
Yes, but how was quality control exerted over these small work shops? Its tough enough today to insure that control. In other words, I have a beautifully finished gun made from a forging I received that was made with junk steel. How would I know? But its my name being trashed for its my name on the finished product.
Posted By: canvasback Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 01:39 PM
Interesting legacy for Henri, seeing as he was the originating, driving force in both companies.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 09:24 PM
Originally Posted By: treblig1958
Yes, but how was quality control exerted over these small work shops? Its tough enough today to insure that control. In other words, I have a beautifully finished gun made from a forging I received that was made with junk steel. How would I know? But its my name being trashed for its my name on the finished product.


Quality control was exercised by whomever arranged to have the gun in question made. If the barrel maker, actioner, stocker etc screws up, the word gets around, their reputation goes down the drain, and they don't get used any more. Vouzelaud in France would be an example of one modern "maker" that had their guns built by quality outworkers in St. Etienne. Some of that goes on--or has gone on--in this country. I recall Wisconsin gunsmith Hugh Lomas putting the finishing touches on AyA's that Bill Hanus was marketing under his "Hanus Bird Gun" brand. And Wisconsin stock maker Toby Leeds did the wood on some of the Ithaca Classic Doubles.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 09:38 PM
“The Manufacture Of Firearms At Liege”
Board of Trade Journal, Volume 10 1891
http://books.google.com/books?id=-X3NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA556&dq
The following information respecting the firearms industry of Liege, is extracted from a report by Vice-Consul Menzies, which was forwarded to the Foreign Office by Mr. G. de Courcy-Perry, Her Majesty's Consul-General at Antwerp.
The most important industry of Liege is the manufacture of firearms. There are over 180 gun-makers in the town alone, and in the district the industry gives employment to more than 40,000 workmen. The peculiarity of the Liege gun-making is that there are hardly any manufactories, as we understand the term, the various component parts of the firearms being made by the workmen at their own homes, and brought in ready made to the gunmaker, who thus merely requires premises for finishing and storing the arms. It will be at once seen how the economy realised by no extensive plant nor costly workshops being required enables the Liege maker to compete favourably with the manufacturers in, in this respect, less favoured countries.

Those 180 gun makers and 40,000 workers were the barrel makers, lock makers, actioners, stockers & finishers providing parts, and parts of guns to the major sporting arms players like Dumoulin, Francotte, Janssen Bros., Manufacture d’Armes à Feu Liégeoise & others.

Fabrique Nationale Herstal was established Oct 15, 1888 by Albert Simmonis, Jules Ancion, Dresse-Laloux, M.A.L., Dumoulin Freres, Joseph Janssen, Henri Pieper, Pirlot et Fresart, Credit General Liegeois, Nicolas Vivario, Auguste Francotte, and Emil et Leon Nagant BUT most of those makers continued to produce branded, "guild", and tradename guns for the U.S. market.

More here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgxxWD_hui-i629-T1yxwY559DU-xzFFBDVe9ur3mCo/edit
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/11/18 09:49 PM
They provide excellent alternative to English stuff for those of us who have been "under the feet" of the British Government for years. Please see GunsInternational 100999311 to see nice sample of European game gun. It is no shame to buy something not made in Birmingham, London or provinces. It's all good.
Posted By: old colonel Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/12/18 12:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Tamid
Before 1914, only two companies were able to entirely manufacture weapons in workshops...in Leige..: the FN and Établissements Pieper.

Source: the remarkable work of Claude GAIER, Doctor of History and Director of the LIEGE ARMS Museum, Five centuries of Arms manufacturing in Liège, Editions du Perron, Alleur (Belgium)

With all the trade guns from Belgium it would be interesting to understand how many were from those 2 companies and how many produced in other 'states' of Belgium


An excellent book which I hate to confess has sat on my shelf not completely read, your post only tells me I need to actually read it in full.

As to the remarks about the segmented nature of production only reinforces the advice reference Belgian Guns to judge each gun on its own merits.

The lack of more than a few “Name” manufacturers only plays to a discerning buyer’s market which enables one to find a great gun at a good price. Initially all of my good guns came this way as I had less money then.
Posted By: Robertovich Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/12/18 08:12 PM
Colleagues, information you are interested in is here https://shotguncollector.com/2017/11/23/8190/ and https://wp.me/p461yQ-1SP
Unfortunately,in Russian
It is possible to use Google Translate https://translate.google.com/
Posted By: Rocketman Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/13/18 04:02 AM
I believe Jules Bury figured large in the gun parts business. AIR, he moved on from his "best gun" shop into the more/larger lucrative of supplying gun parts. Several other noted masters joined this effort, I think.

DDA
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/13/18 05:33 AM
Rocket man, I am away from my files, but I seem to remember that Bury made guns for himself and for others to sell with their names. But, my memory is that Bury sourced parts from Britte Bros. Then , maybe in the late 40s, was there some sort of almagamation of Britte and Bury ?
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/13/18 12:27 PM
Robertovich, excellent information. Great article.
Posted By: Rocketman Re: Interesting Leige fact - 03/15/18 03:35 AM
DH, as I recall, Bury was one of four makers who really pushed Belgian gun making quality into the level of "best work guns" in the late 1800's.
Posted By: Robert Chambers Re: Interesting Leige fact - 05/21/20 11:08 PM
Drew,
Nice to read your posts...you and ellnbr are my two favorite posters, even if I don't agree with you guys all the time

Respectfully, I reject the 1914 date...Liege gunsmithing was a cottage industry long before 1914...August LeBeau was long dead by 1914 and he capitalized on outworkers and they cranked out finished guns as did a great number of Liege finishing houses...maybe I misunderstood the posted information...what isn't remembered is that many outworkers were women and children...Back in the early 80's an elderly man, who grew up in Liege, told me that as soon as the sun came up, they would clear the breakfast table and begin filing parts...he and his siblings and family all participated...hid father did the final fitting.

He explained the the parts came rough in a wood bot with one finished piece wired to the top of the box and several simple gauges ( I assume go and no go)...when all parts who finished his father would take the parts to M.L.for payment and a new box of rough parts, usually the same...he made it seems as though they were seriously underpaid......he mentioned the family being so broke that there was times when they couldn't come up with the security deposit for a box of rough (forgings) parts
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Interesting Leige fact - 05/21/20 11:40 PM
Great to have you posting again Robert, and I hope all is well with you and your family.

Interesting reading from Jean Puraye, "Making Damascus Barrels", 1966 published by the Musee d’ Armes de Liege, "The End of the Damascus Trade".

The reasons the trade ended are multi-faceted. While the destruction of the rolling mills, barrel production centers and decimated workforce inflicted by WWI are primary, the trade would have ended eventually.
The change was rooted deep within the fabric of western Europe.
The industrial revolution progressed. Metallurgical developments produced stronger steels. Railroads were built. As the technology to produce stronger steels rose, so too did unionism and the shattering of the guild system.
For many decades, the owners had ruled like barons over their workers. They saw no reason to support state sponsored programs such as schools, health care and the like. They found the federal government intrusive and preferred to cling to their own regional ethnicities. For a time this view was shared by the labor force. Eventually, as the owners increasing used machines, the workers were displaced. The guild could provide the training needed to learn a trade. The small cottage worker found themselves living in more urban setting with decreasing ability to control their own work habits.



As early as 1849 the S.S.M.O.A.L. or Société de Secours mutuels des Ouvriers Armuriers Liège (Mutual Aid Society of Liege Arms Workers) was formed. This early mutual aid society was largely geared to helping workers with things like housing, food, etc.
In 1886 the town of Liege called a meeting of the owners. They had a proposal for them. An establishment of a school to train workers. They suggested that the town would help fund such a school. They would seek funding from the federal government. In addition, they wanted the owners support. The owners drafted a response. They saw no need to educate their labor force. After all, the guild system provided all the education that was required.
One of the 1st truly modern firearms makers in Belgium was Fabrique National. FN was originally founded by a group of owners / investors, Henri Pieper being one, in 1889. It was based on the most modern technology. Large tracts of land were acquired. Huge factories rose, building after building. Labor was needed. There was a rush to the doors as people sought work. FN was looking at a new economy of firearms production. Before a gunmaker-owner simply set a rate for which he purchased parts. He could even pay cottage workers to do the final assembly. Guns per hour, became a new phrase on the owners lips.
The work force suffered and finally walked out on strike in 1895. Strikes were not unheard of in Belgium, but were a rare thing for the arms industry. At this time the Union des Fabricants d'Armes U.F.A ( Union of Arms Workers ) approached the officials of Liege. They lent their support and the L'école d'Armurerie de Liège ( School of Liege Gun makers ) was founded in 1897.
A sense of national pride was growing in Belgium. With the advent of the railroad, relatively rare and exotic commodities were becoming common place. Oranges, lemons, spices, clothing were now available. People had the bicycle as a means of transport. Things were looking up. The only problem was money. To purchase all this took cash. The owners were staunch. They had paid your father 2 francs per barrel, what made you think your barrels were worth 3 francs? Things came to a head in 1908. The barrel makers guild found themselves locked out. The people of Nessonvaux and Liege opened their hearts and their doors. They took in the children of the barrel makers guild and provided them with food and shelter.
One of the voices of change was Léon Troclet. He supported the workers cause. He called for even more schooling. Léon Troclet was one of the founders of the Belgium Labor Party and of the F.G.T.B. , La Fédération générale du travail de Belgique (The General Federation of Belgian Labour ), one the largest unions in Belgium.
The strikes continued unfortunately. In 1912, the Lochet factory was embroiled in a strike.

Working at home with what looks to be 7 children



Everything changed after Germany invaded neutral Belgium August 4, 1914.

Posted By: Tamid Re: Interesting Leige fact - 05/23/20 02:17 AM
Interesting read Drew. My fist question to mind is, has the world changed? And the answer in almost all countries is no we still heve same problems, slightly changed in a more modern world but, still the same. Companies continue to rely on the lowest paid workers where ever they are, China being the pointing finger today. Yesterday it was Taiwan and before than Japan and after China who....South America or Africa....take your pick. Does industry work any differently than a 100 years ago. No it doesn't. Where are the most sought after electronics coming from. Reading the label it could be from Mexico, Taiwan, China, Malaysia, Philippines, and slowly becoming prominent countries in Africa. The cottage industry still thrives but in a global market place.

My original post wasn't to understand how micro and macro economics work, but more to decipher who in Belgium made complete guns and when reading the mfg'er label on a gun, in this day, can you really understand what is under the surface in workmanship and quality?
Posted By: Robert Chambers Re: Interesting Leige fact - 05/27/20 02:12 AM
It's very difficult to read your response...I just had eye surgery on good eye...the good news is that I'm getting a DaVinci device in about a week and I'll be able to read and smith again...I will read carefully and respond then...
O.T. I have unpublished manuscript that was written by an agriculture historian that happens to be a biography of sorts of Fred Adolph...I have't read it in 35 years (can't read it now...yet)...the authors name was Ward O'Hara...I didn't write it so I can't defend it from website bullies who will roast someones entire postings on a misspelled French proper noun...what I'm asking is, is it safe to post controversial information here? I remember a member accusing you of being on LSD for your damascus to Arabic writing observation...I mean who needs it?...I would like to post the raw information for all the great members but for the playground bullies...like the ones who chased Johan Fanzoi away

To post or not to post? what's your opinion please ?
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Interesting Leige fact - 05/27/20 03:19 PM
Interesting Robert! This Ward O'Hara?
http://wardwoharaagriculturalmuseum.org/

Possibly The Double Gun Journal would be interested in publishing the manuscript, if not under copyright, with your additional comments? There will need to be some good images to accompany the article.
Posted By: Robert Chambers Re: Interesting Leige fact - 05/27/20 06:20 PM
Good idea Drew,
I was trying to do something good for all the good/great members without getting into a hastle with the well known trolls...even some of the well respected members play thier cards close to the vest...in other words, the more they know and the less everyone else knows, the better off they are...go back and read the Joy
e Loy engraving thread to see what size sharks are here...they know Joe Loy's secret signature, but they will not share with the other members...

I don't want to be one of those, I want to be like you and ellnbr who freely share knowledge...I guess I'll have to look for something else to contribute here...thanks
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Interesting Leige fact - 05/27/20 07:31 PM
More good reading

L'Armurerie Liegeoise, Institut D'Etude Economique Et Sociale Des Classes Moyennes, 1949
http://www.leonmignon.be/web_documents/armurerie_liegeoise-ieescm_1949.pdf
“La Technique Du Metier” (The Craft Technique) starts on p. 14
Images of workmen from Archive du Musée de Vie Wallonne

Thomas and Léonard Dombret, "Fabrication Des Canons Damas"; Enroulement d'un ruban sur le mandarin. Nessonvaux, 1925.





Google translate is OK but misses some of the technical terms
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.leonmignon.be/web_documents/armurerie_liegeoise-ieescm_1949.pdf&prev=search
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