A friend sold me an East German proof marked, Superior Quality 1 marked, 28 1/4" 70mm 12 gauge today that weights 6 pounds, 15 ounces. The importer stamped on the action flat SIMPSON LTD G'BURG ILL and following that M-8 GERMANY. Mike Orlen has opened the chokes to about .722 right and .705 left. The gun has has narrow swivel slings, and a cheek rest, and it's overall in very nice condition. Serial number is 461,xxx. The gun has side clips, greener cross bolt, dealey forend latch, cocking indicators, and line engraving. The sides are scalloped about like an L.C. Smith.

I'd like anybody's input on what I have. I understand after the war, the East Germans and a West German firm both made J.P. Sauer shotguns until about 1970. I've also read that Merkel, Sauer, Simpson, and perhaps other names were put on similar East German side by sides, and I know I'm fortunate to have my gun stamped with the superior quality stamp of a 1 inside of a 0, which means they spent a little more time and effort making the guns of higher quality for export.

But, I'd like to hear more about East German side by sides made in Suhl, and how to date them. My gun has 560 on the bottom of the barrel flats. 1956?

And I'd like to know if disconnecting the automatic safety is much trouble or not.

And my gun has a capped pistol grip with a black hard butt plate.

The cap and butt plate may be plastic, or they might be horn. How do I test to see?

Anything other information about these guns would be much appreciated.

My gun appears to me, to be a high quality piece, on the par with my V. Bernardelli also made in the 1950's.

It's so well balanced that when you pick it up, it seems to come alive, like a good Ithaca Model 37, and it's hard to guess how much it weighs.

I think I bought a bargain Merkel quality shotgun, but what say you?

I could be wrong but I would take that as 1960.
Good solid guns for the money.

Thanks.

I found by reading further, 560 stands for May 1960.

Hi, congrats on your Sauer, sounds like a very nice gun (need pics BTW)! I hope you have many happy and healthy years shooting her. Shotguns made in Suhl (DDR), were made in the Ernst Thalmann Peoples Works. Guns were stamped with some of the great names in pre war German Gunmaking, Merkel, Simson, Wolf, etc. All made on the same factory line, same guns, different names stamped on the guns. Of course as you correctly stated the Q1 mark is the highest quality.

Also, if an East German gun was to be imported into the US (but not West Germany or other european nations) it had to be stamped "Made in Soviet Occupied Germany". I've never seen a gun stamped like this however.

Dating them is exactly how you stated, month then year.

East German guns can be down right pretty, here's my 12ga Buhag Hubertius



Sorry about the pic, can't seem to rotate it.

Best,

Greg

Work horse all the way around.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here's a quick cell phone picture of my Model 8 Sauer

Indeed, typical Kerner-Anson work horse

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

have noticed that most post war east german field guns made prior to 1970 exhibit decent qualities...not quite as nice as pre ww2 guns and not near as nice as pre ww1 guns, but still ok...however, beginning around 1970 field gun quality really began to decline...could be that the commie workers paradise did not quite work out as expected...

I had Merkel 201e from ca. 1956. The engraving and metal work plus Bohler steel barrels were excellent in light 6.5lb gun. The stock finish as typical of entry level series produced stuff at the time was ok. One thing that struck me was the gun was easy to use and maintain right from the start (bought it in what appeared unused condition) unlike newer series produced offerings where the gun has to broken over the knee and disassembly/re-assembly being frustrating process. I do like the nicer wood on newer stuff but do not think sample should be broken in using thousands of rounds to make it pleasure to use and maintain. Rant over

I have to say that Buhag Hubert up there is work of art sort of like old high grade Victor Sarasqueta made at the foothills of Pyrenees.

It's likely my gun in 1960 passed through some graying German's hands in Suhl, that was a young apprentice when Imperial Germany's armies invaded Belgium, and got close enough to Paris, to hear the bells of the Cathedral of Notre Dame. He was paid by the billions of marks in 1923, to make the same shotgun, that he kept making after Hitler committed suicide and Germany was divided by the victorious allies. There's even a chance he lived to see Germany reunited again in 1992, when he was an ancient, old man.

His grandson could still be making the same shotgun in Suhl, today.

History is always so fascinating because of the "what ifs".

What if William II had not been a breech baby? Was it his withered arm that caused him to be so pompous, vain, and insecure, as to allow some damned fool thing in the Balkans to plunge the entire world into the horrors of the First World War?

Or what if his Cousin Nicky in Russia, had told the Serbs that they had allowed the Black Hand to murder the archduke, and they'd better submit unconditionally to the Austrian Ultimatum, or find themselves on their own, as the cost of regicide.

Had there been no World War One, Czar Nicholas might have died of old age and been replaced by another Czar. William II would have lived to 1942 and been replaced by his son. Hitler would have remained anonymous, and there would have been no myth of the Stab in the Back for him to have spread to try and restore Germany's greatness.

Or what if Francis Ferdinand, had simply went hunting stags with his Merkel, instead of taking that trip with Sophie to Sarajevo?

The Model 8 is silent, and says nothing about the history of the men who made it, or the adventures it's had since it's birth in 1960.

But it surely is a fine old shotgun, just as tight as new, and with most of the bluing still on the barrels, and it's walnut as fresh now, after a tiny bit of linseed oil, as it was the year before the Berlin Wall was put up.

Ah, a student of history, wonderful! Yep, alternate history can be lots of fun, so many different scenarios that could have played out and the results that would have effected our lives. I wouldn't be typing this if WWII didn't happen. Dad met Mom just before he went overseas. Who knows how the world would look today. Interesting to say the least.

Just a minor correction, Wilhelm II died in 1941. To me he is a most fascinating individual, there were so many different sides to his personality, as you said, vain, coincided, but also kind and could be very down to earth. Overall fairly popular with his people, unlike the Crown Prince who was not liked by almost everyone. I always liked the story when Wilhelm was on a shoot, someone said "For Gods sake, don't shoot the Kaiser, look what we'll get". True or not, it's a great story.

Best,

Greg

Kaiser Wilhelm II did die in 1941, and he was succeeded by his son the Crown Prince as head of the Hohenzollern family, who lived only until 1951. By a complicated series of events, the current head of the Hohenzollern dynasty is this man, George Friedric and his lovely wife, Princess Sophie. They have several sons, and are still young enough to have more.




They also sometimes reside in the family castle, still in possession of the Hohenzollern family. I wonder, if he shoots a Merkel?



It was often said of his great grandfather, Wilhelm II, that he was more fickle, than false. Whoever was the last to be with him, would influence him enough that he'd convince himself his next swaggering, narcissistic, pompous, boastful, speech sprang from his own mind.

And all this, a century before Twitter politics, became normalized.

Perhaps today, Wilhelm II would have spent himself on Twitter, and his armies would not have marched on Belgium.

The everlasting ifs accumulate, it's been well said.

For whatever it is worth, unless my memory fails me, the Ernst Thalmann works was the old Simson factory. I think the Simson family was able to recover their property after the German reunification.
Mike

In 1992, the reunited German government made a polite request from Poland for the return of East Prussia and German cities lost to the Treaty of Versailles, The last installment due for the war debt clauses of the Treaty of Versailles was made October 3, 2010. As an old friend of mine astutely observed, Germany regrets losing both World Wars, but isn't the slightest bit sorry about fighting them.

Yet Kaiser Bill still influences the fate of nations, beyond the grave. Imperial Germany did not tolerate draft dodgers, and had strict laws concerning treasonous activities, and unlawful emigration and immigration, and deported a returning Fredrich Drumpf for illegally emigrating to America, to avoid Prussian military service. His sons, Americanizing their surnames to Trump, would go on to become wealthy in New York real estate, and his grandson the President of the United States of America.




I doubt Fredric Drumpf would have stooped to have shot a Model 8.

He sounds more likely to have favored the products of Ansley Fox, who made the Finest Gun in the World, according to company literature.

Most interesting and amusing tid-bit of info. Most of the time there's a bar that when removed will be the disconnect for the aggravating automatic safety.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Too, look on the underside of the aft lug & the Modell designation may be stamped there.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

As to the gun, it appears to be a nice one. I do not however understand the reference to the scalloped rear of the action looking like an L C Smith. The L C Smith is a side lock & looks nothing at all like this.

A better comparison would have been the sculpted sides of an Ithaca NID.



The action of a Model 8 J.P. Sauer seems to be nearly identical to the same product branded as a Simpson or Merkel, except the sculpting of the sides of the action. The scalloped rear of the actions where they mate to the stock, can also vary.

I took my Model 8 apart and saw where there is a push bar to activate the automatic safety. It's made of forged steel, and all part of the safety mechanism itself, and to have ground or cut it off short seemed almost an act of vandalism. I might later modify the safety, but not for now.

These are fine guns, by any measurement or comparison.

Indeed, an atrocity as you say. Are there any stamps on the aft lug?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, a big stylish 1 coming out of a circle, denoting best export quality to Simpson in the United States, on the left side.

Yay!!!

And then, there is a triangle with a TW over a 1 on top of the aft lug.

Whaddat?

This afternoon I went to the club and shot some patterns with my Sauer at ten, twenty one, thirty, and forty yards.

Mike Orlen has the right barrel about to a skeet or improved cylinder, and the left barrel to a modified or improved modified.

Judge, for yourselves:











I'm leaving the chokes alone on this gun.

It will do it's part, if I can do mine.

Really nice looking patterns! Should be great in the uplands.
Karl

The patterns do look nice, but Michael McIntosh was right that the best choke for an upland game gun, for the right barrel is no choke, and for the left barrel, no more than 15 thousands.

The left barrel on my beautiful Sauer would turn any well centered quail into a red mist with two wings fluttering down, out to about twenty five or thirty yards, which is where quail are shot over pointing dogs.

I'll use it for doves, or casual clay target shooting.

I have one of these GDR guns in 16 gauge. It is marked as a "Simson", but I guess it really does not make much difference what name is on it. I had the chokes opened to sk1/sk2 and it carries and shoots well. I enjoy it and don't worry too much about pushing through the brush or getting a little rain on it. It also has the Q1 stamp - though I'm not certain how much weight that actually carries as far as quality.

I've never owned a German shotgun other than this J.P. Sauer, but I've owned a whole bunch of old American, Spanish, and Japanese shotguns and this Italian Charles Daly Bernardelli import from 1959.



The build quality of my Superior Export Quality Sauer is second to none of a field grade gun, from A.H. Fox, L.C. Smith, Ithaca, Lefever, Parker, AyA, Browning Miroku, or that Bernardelli made about the same period in Italy. In some ways the East German gun is better, in the bolting and hand fitting of wood to metal. The engraving on the German gun isn't up with some, but it's not bad, just simple and sparse. The checkering on the wood is good, but not something like you'd see on an A.H. Fox or Lefever from the glory days.

The Germans who made the communist era guns didn't quit being Germans, just because they lost the war. They continued making the same excellent quality Anson and Deeley boxlock with a Greener type crossbolt as they had for over forty years before the Russians took over Suhl.

And if they stamped the 1 coming out of a circle on the lug, it had to pass a German quality inspection by some old gray haired master of the craft.

I have a J.P. Sauer with a scalloped box lock, serial #406300. I am told that the serial number places it around 1952. My seller believed it was likely work-in-process before WW II and then sold post-War. I do not know. It is a nice clean gun, but after I started to shoot it, a crack developed behind the scallops. My gunsmith, Abe Chaber in CT, repaired the stock. Abe told me that the quality of the inletting was very bad and that the recoil put metal parts in the lock in contact with the wood, resulting in the split. The metal work and mechanics on the gun are beautiful. It is surprising that the inletting was not what it should have been on an otherwise very nicely made gun. It occurred to me that, if it was work in process pre-War, it is possible that the shoddy stock work was done after the War and not up to pre-War standards. Anybody else have a similar experience with a J.P. Sauer from the immediate post-War era?

My gun has cracks on both sides behind the scallops, but it's been glued and seems sound as a dollar now.

The wood is plain, straight grained European walnut, and it's my guess the Germans weren't able to get well cured and seasoned walnut after the war, like they did before.


It's all cured and seasoned now, and there seems no chance the spits will go any further back.

Mike,
I've seem SKB's with the same scalloped shape behind the receiver that had cracks in the stock as well. My current Merkels have a more rounded shape to them, perhaps a design change to prevent that from happening.
Regarding choking, my Churchill is chocked .003/.011 and I think it's going to preform well this fall based on the pattern sheets I've shot.
Karl

Twelve gauge gun like that with 70mm chambers is very practical choice. Both lead and steel 1oz loads can be found for <$6 at Walmart 24/7 unless one lives near economically-challenged hood there ammo sales stop at 10:00pm. The light steel shot 6 and 7 loads should be ok in barrel choked 1/2 or less. One must remember that in the future ammo delivered to door may not be allowed.
Sadly anything is possible. After 227 years of liberal gun ownership policies (good stuff like CC w/o a permit) it now appears the State of Vermont will have magazine capacity limit, universal background checks, waiting period and minimum age to purchase firearms. All it took was a Democratically-controlled legislature and a Republican governor afraid of student activists.

never mind . . . thought better of it.

Come now, you can speak your mind on here.

On my Sauer, when Abe Chaber repaired the cracking, he found that the inletting was not correctly done for the gun, regardless of whether minor cracks tend to occur in the wood behind scalloped boxlocks. The wood behind the scallops on my gun was unusually stressed by the recoil and metal slammed into the wood at a point where it should not have happened. Abe says would not have occurred if the inletting had been properly done. Abe is a very longtime stockmaker, so I take his comment seriously. After the War, good wood may have been in short supply. Good stockers may have also been in short supply. Getting a stock on the gun and getting the gun out of the factory door and sold may have been more important at that time after the War than maintaining pre-War stockmaking quality. The scalloped action is beautiful and the lock-up is silky smooth. Maybe the wonderful action was pre-War work-in-process. In any case, it is a very nice gun. Now that the stock has been repaired, the Sauer should have a long and useful life of shooting.

Well, if you insist . . .

I thought it was rather ridiculous that you told the class that we could buy shells on sale at Walmart, especially after 992B volunteered that he had owned numerous other side by sides and posted photos of his patterning work. Do you really think he or anybody else needs to be told where to buy shells or what time of night they should go to Walmart? Seriously? Don't you think that's a bit presumptuous?

I realize Walmart isn't popular because of what happened to small downtowns after they moved in. Now Amazon is helping us with Walmart. Once on the wagon once under a wagon.....that is how life rolls. Anyhow, I only get Pomi tomato juice and few pieces of fresh farmed Salmon when I go there. I'm not suggesting one should buy ammo at Walmart on regular basis, but it being present in many small towns it can serve as emergency supplier. One must think of the future no matter how it looks. Buying guns able to digest what is at Walmart isn't a bad plan for the future. We can change name to "ChinaMart" if it makes you feel better.

Let me try to spell it out for you . . .

You have a reputation here as a poseur. My impression is that you are a person who likes to read about shotguns and offer your opinions but those opinions are not really grounded in actual experience. You come across as an internet expert and not an actual expert.

I happen to know the fella who started this thread. He's one of the best shotgun shooters I know. He owns dozens of shotguns and reloads for all gauges. He doesn't need to be told where to buy shells -- whether he's directed to Walmart or the factory itself.

Sometimes people would be better served by holding their peace and just learn by reading and listening. This seemed like one of those times.

Whoever did the repair, it was expertly done, and it's been glued so well that only a faint line remains were the cracks came in the middle and top pointed lines of the scallops. The heads of the stocks on these are thick, sturdy, and stout, anyway.

As overbuilt as these guns were, they ought to weight just over nine pounds, instead of just under seven.

I took a candle and smoked all the bolts and side clips, and all six make lockup. The head of the stock now contacts all the metal on the action, if it didn't before it was repaired.

In modern America, we have so many guns it takes a while for each of us to count them all.

These old shotguns were made to be the customer's only shotgun, for their entire lives, and it shows.

My first sxs was a relatively plain pre-WWII Sauer 16. The only serious issue it ever developed, over the 20 or so years I owned it, was that the link between the top lever and the Greener crossbolt broke. When my gunsmith friend took it apart to make the repair, he remarked that the inside looked as if those who made it paid very careful attention to their work.

My first sxs is a 12 ga Q1 Simson, born 10/79, which I bought new in 1983 from the Rod & Gun Club while stationed in Germany. For many years, it was my only shotgun and it is still my go-to gun for heavier loads and targets. Except for a couple boxes of shells put through it by gunsmiths (I once had a broken hammer spring, and the floorplate screw loosens up every now and again), I've shot every round it's fired. I've taken a lot of game with it and broke a lot of targets. I couldn't be happier with it - a solid, well-made gun.

You did good buying your Sauer.

Anyone else notice the similarity between the Sauers pictured above and a Husqvarna Model 310?...Geo

My GDR Simson 16...



My Husky 310...

Ooooh, what looks to be upper & lower scears. Not the typical workhorse Kerner-Anson.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

That's one BIG rabbit. Hopefully, you got him after the chocolate/candy/colored egg deliveries were done?

What impresses me the most about my East German side by side is what a bargain it was. These were truly "fine guns", and they are still being made in Suhl, and sell for about ten times more as new guns than my old version sells for.

In that regard, it joins my J.C. Higgins Model 10 AyA shotguns imported by Sears, and my beautiful old round knob, long tang Superposed shotguns, and Miroku side by sides, as being champagne on a beer budget, lots of gun for the money, honest bargains.

For about a hundred dollars more than a new, cheap pump shotgun at the big box, a lucky bottom feeder can bring one of these home to add to the stash.

These shotguns could be bought by a young man, and serve him all his life until he was too old to shoot it, and then be handed down to his kids, and they'd go right on shooting it.

The cheap pumps at the big box would do the same trick, but nobody would be all that proud of them, although it would be hard to wear one out.

I got an East German JP Sauer gun from Simpson a few years ago, 12ga, ejectors, sideclips. Some minor rust on the barrel and a plain stock but for $300...why not?