Another thread got me thinking about this and I tho't I'd put down a couple things I've found out, by trial and error, about the way I grip a shotgun when shooting. There are two aspects I will address..............the shape of the grip, and how tightly I hold the gun in my hands. These are just things I have found to be true for me, and the personal experiences of anyone is welcomed, and appreciated.

As I mentioned many times before, in my experience, straight gripped guns and heavy loads are not compatible, as it relates to shooting my best. I found this out many years ago when I bought an A grade A H Fox, 12 gauge, 3" chambers, 32" barrels and a straight grip. It was fitted with a serviceable recoil pad. I found that when I shot it I got a lot of gun movement in my hands.............enough so to be disconcerting and causing me to be slower in getting the gun back on for the second shot, whether it be to kill a second duck with the second barrel, or try again after a miss. My 9 lb. 7 oz. HE Fox does not "jump around" like this when I shoot the same heavy loads in it, it being a pistol-grip gun. I shoot heavy guns well, my main target gun weighing 9 lbs. 3 oz., and I tend to hold a gun rather loosely and let it recoil as it will, not liking to try and manhandle the recoil by holding it tightly into my shoulder. This does not contribute positively to good shooting, IMO. Hand strength would likely be a factor in this, and being a farmer that has pulled wrenches most of my life, I think my hand strength is not lacking, but certainly there are some much stronger than I. Nash Buckingham comes to mind. He was a big man, strong and athletic, and liked straight gripped Super Foxes, so evidently this wasn't an issue for him.

The other issue with how we hold a shotgun is a bit more technical. I found out this personal tenet only after building a pattern plate on my farm. I am a perfectionist as far as regulation of patterns goes, with doubleguns, of course. And with a single or double barreled gun, the plate enables me to determine if the gun is shooting where I'm looking, or not. I found that with S x Ss, particularly the lightweight ones, how tightly I hold the gun affects regulation greatly. As many know, the gun begins to recoil at the instant the shot charge begins movement down bore, and enough of the recoil occurs while the shot charge is still in the barrel to affect where it hits after it's downrange. A S x S recoils horizontally in the direction of the barrel being fired............the right barrel being fired causes the gun to recoil right, and vice versa, because of it's distance off the centerline axis of the barrel set (imagine a line dead under the center of the top rib and midway from top to bottom of the barrels). Of course, the reason this is important is that if the barrels were joined truly parallel, neither would print it's pattern at point of aim. The barrels are joined in convergence, towards the muzzles, to counteract the lateral forces of recoil on the pattern placement. Now to the point. How tightly we hold the S x S determines to a degree how much it recoils away from that axis, and results in where it prints it's pattern laterally, and to a small degree, vertically. I have found that, in every instance, my holding a lightweight S x S too tightly causes it to crossfire it's patterns. "Manhandling" it doesn't allow it to recoil horizontally enough to place the patterns atop each other, which is the ideal scenario. I can shoot the plate and see this without question.

So, how do YOU hold a shotgun, and have you ever patterned it to see if holding it differently causes the pattern to shift? I have a shooting buddy that grips his Beretta so tightly that sometimes I expect it to holler "Ouch!" before he calls "pull". Consistency is key to top shooting, but finding out where the gun is shooting, beforehand, is ultra-important.

Just a bunch of rambling............feel free to ignore it if you'd like.

SRH

I don't shoot like you do.
I purposely pried myself away from a rifleman's style to a smooth and dynamic one. Left hand and right, working in concert. No aiming, no sustained lead, no measuring, limited time in the pocket.
I've read that you shoot everything premounted.

It is essential that the butt is tucked precisely into my shoulder pocket, with no movement upon firing. My left hand (not my right) is guiding the barrels to the target.

I get no movement in my right hand grip regardless of stock style. Unless I am moving between triggers front/back, back front, etc.

That said, due to an ancient wrist injury, vertical target gun pistol grips pound the wrist bones together and it swells up. So I avoid anything tighter than a POW.

I suspect shooting style plays a large role in what you are observing.

A couple of clarifications may need to be made. I do not shoot "everything" premounted. My comments on straight grip guns referred to heavy loads, and the guns they are used in are duck guns and pigeon guns. I wouldn't know how to begin to go about shooting a duck premounted. Doves, either. Quail either. I premount for sporting clays and flyers, but not for FITASC (obviously). So, you are laboring under a misconception ("I don't shoot like you do"), about how I shoot. Certainly, we may not shoot alike, probably don't, but it's not because I premount for everything.

However, I fail to see how premounting has anything to do with what takes place upon the shell firing. Everyone is premounted before slapping the trigger, unless they're shooting from the hip. A premounted gun, as well, is nicely "tucked into my shoulder pocket", as you say.

Interesting that you get no gun movement upon firing. Do you shoot many 1 1/4 to 1 5/8 oz. loads out of straight gripped guns? That was the point of the first part of my post.

Thanks for the comments..........SRH

Pure rookie comments, Stan. I believe I shoot with a relatively light hand grip on a gun, but I can sense a bit of tightening up. In truth, it's probably a slight flinch and I can pick it up depending on the shooting.

I close my eyes when I'm try mounting especially a different gun and feel for the shoulder, cheek and probably if my left elbow is at its normal bend and angle off to the left. Then, I see if I think I have the right sighting picture.

I think I like the touch of a pistol grip on my right palm area more for being repetitive, and maybe for managing some twisting component to recoil. I don't own, or have much experience shooting one, but I think a diamond cross section straight grip wrist, that's likely fitted close enough, gives much more tactile feedback than some others.

The thing I really try to do is have my feet, knees and hip sort of anchored as one unit and my shoulders, arms, cheek, head and gun kept aligned as another component. Then, at least the majority of the flexing and movement is in my midsection. It doesn't necessarily work, and it used to be easier. Fun topic to toss around.

I have never been able to grip a gun too tightly and shoot it well. I just seem to loose the ability to swing it smoothly. And don't get me going on flinching. Tight grip leads me to flinching. Found that out shooting too much .375 and .458 on year.

When I shoot a straight grip gun, the shape grip and fore end are important to me, more than LOP or drop. I shoot a larger beaver tail fore end better than a very skinny splinter. Big hands like big grips. But a big fat beaver tail fore end looks like crap on a gun to me so tend to not own them. If the butt has a grip that is shaped like a diamond or fat oval I can shoot it well, even with a fairly small splinter. If it is flat straight grip or a very small straight grip I just can not adjust well enough to shoot it consistently. And shooting consistently is what it is all about.

Using a pattern plate can give you a lot of information but you are shooting directly at the plate, not swinging or being active. So I'd take the results with a small grain of salt. I pay a lot of attention to how clay targets or live birds react when they are shot. All information helps. And whatever makes you a better shot is fine with me.

That is the same for me. I have big hands & even the Prince of Wales grip on one of my guns is really too skinny for my hand.
The hand needs to be not closing up too tightly on a small grip or be over extended trying to get a grip on something too fat.
There is a natural grip size for hand size in there somewhere.
A comfortable & naturally manageable handfull.
O.M

I grip a shotgun just tight enough that I have positive control. I grip the wrist tighter than the forearm holding a pretty light forearm. A death grip on a shotgun lends to poor shooting; it interrupts fluidity, I believe. I prefer a straight grip for double trigger guns.

As Buzz said, a tight grip leads to poor shooting. One can't move properly if your muscles are tight. The gun just lays in my hands. JMHO

I have owned very few straight grip guns, but the ones I have had I liked. Can't actually recall if I have shot any load heavier than the 3 3/4-1¼ while using a straight grip or not. I didn't notice any particular undue recoi with the ones I have used, though I was never particularly recoil sensitive.

I will note that Nash Buckingham's original #1 Bo-Whoop was an HE Fox with straight grip. While he did on occasion shoot it for other purposes with lighter loads it was primarily his waterfowl gun. His most favored load for this was the Winchester SuperX 3" load of 1 3/8 oz of luballoy #4's.

After this gun was lost & Nash's friends replaced it for him Bert Becker made a mistake & #2 had a pistol grip. From his writings Nash always regretted this mistake as he much preferred the straight grip. I don't recall him ever saying how tightly he gripped his guns, though he may have mentioned it.

I'm an avid bird hunter and not much of a target shooter. My shotgun preferences lean towards game guns with straight grips and splinter fore ends. Many years ago I shot PGs and full beaver tailed guns but have evolved to my current preference.
Your personal choice and what works best for you is what is important.

Just to be clear, I'm not recoil sensitive. I have put over 5000 rounds through a 6 1/2 lb. gun in four days with no recoil problem. But, as I said earlier, it is the disconcerting movement that I get with my straight grip guns and heavy loads that doesn't lend itself to my best shooting.

It seems I am the "oddball" with this, but I still want to stress that I am talking about heavy loads only. I shoot my Dickinson straight grip .410 pretty decent.

SRH

Straight grip stocks are an anatomical disaster and simply do not work for me. And for other than posers I can't imagine anyone actually handicapping themselves by wanting one on a gun that is to be used.
AFA gripping goes, in my experience a gun shooting pigeon loads that is lightly gripped by either hand will be worthless for the second barrel. For me in practice that extends to any load and any two shot game. If controlling the gun constitutes man-handling and I don't know how it could not, then not man-handling the gun constitutes an uncontrolled gun. Proper (the operative term) shooting techniques may vary but controlling the gun is at the core of every one of them. That is not to say that some techniques are not crap.
JMO of course shoot however and whatever you like

Stan, do you think it is a matter of fit?

I shot a splinter/straight grip, plastic buttplate, 12 yesterday and noticed no movement of the gun in my hands at firing. I don't shoot more than 1 1/8.
They were 1200+fps though.

I didn't notice any muzzle flip either. Managing to stay on line with some true pairs pretty well.

I control the line of the barrels with my left hand, my right just brings the stock up to my face, and back into my shoulder pocket. I don't like feeling the buttstock squirming back into my shoulder pocket, it ends up in barrel checking. Messes up my timing.

Stan it may just be that you notice things that others don’t. If you are an average shooter you are kind of happy with average results. Those are the shooters who shoot anything from 60-80 at Sporting Clays and seem happy. After you reach the point where 80 is a bad day you start to notice things more. You’ve shot so well for so long you are just aware what does not work well for you. Straight grip with heavy shells are not your thing. It might be the shape of the grip or just the way your wrist is bent when shooting a straight grip gun. A small palm swell could have made you gun much more under control with heavy loads. A oval or diamond shaped straight grip gives you a lot of the same effects of a palm swell.

Like me, you try to analyze why things happen. I call it reading the birds. I spend a lot of time trying different adjustments to see what outcomes they bring. On Sporting Clays I don’t need to smoke every bird but if I just chop a bird in half it makes me wonder why I was so close to a miss. Was it just a poor mount, a poor swing(effort), did I miss read the bird or lazy attempt. The problem I have with Sporting Clays is that repeating birds gets boring for me and some courses are all easy targets for newer shooters. Hard to get better when you are shooting station 7 birds all the time. So I shoot a lot of .410 at Sporting Clays if they are gimme courses. Also it pisses off the kids when that little .410 makes them work for a win.

Years ago I was shooting a .410 on high five. Wayne Mayse was talking me through several different adjustments to try. By changing my hold point I got different breaks with the same lead, different leads, different foot positions all were tried. Shot a full box, all hits, with vastly different breaks. By the last four shells I had tried so many different things I could walk the bird into different parts of the pattern such that I cut the first third off with the first shell, centered with the second, was on the back half with the third and just cut the tail off with the last shell. It was dialed in as we use to say. Never missed a high five for months after that. Just to humble me Wayne proceeded to shoot a box on high five and he started cutting just the very nose off the bird. Shell after shell he took more off until he started hitting the back half of the bird. Last shell he just knocked off the tail. That man was an artist with a .410 as his record of 100 .410 100 straights in competition showed.

Very interesting post and comments. I am tall and skinny and have never been able to shoot well with a straight grip; I just don't feel like I'm in control of the gun. My fingers are long and I have no problem with switching triggers on a DT gun with a pistol grip, so that is the setup I prefer. That makes it hard for me to find a modern sxs gun that I really like.

I was taught to shoot with normal grip pressure and have always avoided trying to hold on tightly to the gun. In fact, I don't think a really tight grip works well for any sort of athletic endeavor, whether it's golf, baseball, basketball, or shooting. I hold the forend when shooting a turkey, but I keep my left arm straight and grip the barrels when using a sxs in wing shooting.

But take my ideas with a grain of salt; Ky Jon is talking about a level of shooting with which I am not familiar.

Wayne was one amazing fellow to watch. Just like Dig is now. What they could/can do with a shotgun just about is beyond anyone’s ability. We are talking above top few shooters in the World in their games. And I don’t think anyone at that level could not transition to other shooting sports at a very high level.

Had a friend, All American Skeet shooter, who moved where there were just no skeet fields nearby. So he switched to Trap and was AA at 27 yard line in handicap in five months and on the top of the leader board every weekend. Won money every weekend and won several larger events. Point is that talent and ability transfer easily. The rest of us must work much harder just to be decent and then age will get you in the end. So enjoy the good times while they last.

Mistah Nash had no problem with heavy guns with straight grips --

No, CZ, it's not a matter of fit, as far as the usual measurements go...............DAC, LOP, stuff like that. I will admit that I don't care for the angle my wrist has to be bent at to "properly" grip a straight gip stock. Pistol grips were designed for a reason. They allow your wrist to remain straight when you are gripping the gun and your finger is on the trigger. So, if there's anything that doesn't fit, it's that my body just doesn't fit, or doesn't like, a straight grip. Now, with a tiny lightweight gun like the .410, I'm fine. But, at the same time I'd rather it be a pistol or semi-pistol grip. But, in all honesty CZ, there's a lot of difference in the recoil of 1 1/8 load at 1200, and a 1 5/8 load at 1250.

I'd never try to convince a shooter he shouldn't shoot what he likes, but the next time you grip a straight grip gun in your house, look in a mirror at the way your wrist is bent in a sharp angle to hold it. That just is not conducive to the best control of heavy recoiling loads. Nash was a much bigger and stronger man than I, and to read his books he could shoot mighty good, but that doesn't mean it's right for me. It isn't. Glad others like them so much.

What it boils down to for me is this. I like to kill doubles on doves and ducks...........and true pairs. I accomplish that much "handier" when I can get on the second bird very quickly after the first shot. A pistol grip allows me to do that faster, especially with heavy duck loads.

My MX8 weighs over 9 lbs. and has a GraCoil on the butt. It was on it when I bought it, so I gave it a fling, and loved it. Why? Because it tames what little recoil there is from a 1 1/8 oz. load at 1150, and gets me on the second bird of my true pair faster. And, most of all, the lack of gun movement in recoil doesn't take my mind off what it is supposed to be on..............where that second bird is. I averaged 93/100 on all the sporting clays targets I shot last year, registered tournaments,and unregistered,..............with O/Us and with S x Ss. Yes, Jon, I try to get one more target per hundred any honest way I can.

I'm enjoying the comments and banter. Many good thoughts.........SRH

Since falling off of my roof onto the driveway in 2011, my wrists (and other body parts) are a mess. While shooting, I need to keep them in the "anatomic position"; mostly straight with slight ulnar (toward the little finger) deviation. That means an open POW grip.

And even before I failed at flying I had to tell myself on calling for a target (I only shoot low gun because of my hopeless flinch) "Squeeze the grip...swing the gun". Anything but a tight right grip gives me no control. Forward/left hand of course has a loose grip.

But I'm off topic because I only shoot 3/4 oz. 16g and 7/8 oz. 12g loads...did I mention the hopeless flinch

I think the thumbhole and it’s ideal measurement is very important for a straight grip. Important for POW too, but even more so with English stock. When the thumbhole is right things are anatomically correct for the hand that holds the wrist of the shotgun. My opinion though.

For comparison

7/8 oz. at 1160 fps in my 8 pound Smith = 12.7 ft/lbs of free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1150 in Stan's 9# MX = 16.7 ft/lbs
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in a 10 pound trap gun = 16.2 ft/lbs
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. (1220 fps) in an 8# gun = 25 ft/lbs
1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1330 fps) in an 8# gun = 29 ft/lbs
1 5/8 oz. 4 Dr. Eq. (1280 fps) in a 9# gun = 40 ft/lbs

There is an interesting collection of live action Live Bird and Inanimate Target (mostly 2 shots allowed) shooting here. The Live Bird loads were likely 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. and the reaction of the shooter and gun to recoil is clearly shown; many had their heads well off of the stock for the second shot
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/vintage-live-action-trap-and-live-bird-shooting.514889/

Not trying to go OT, but the live action videos are a nice way to compare grips and the shooter's response to recoil for the second target

FLINCH......Drew, that should be a 4-letter word instead of 6! I flinched more before I started pulling a single trigger with the anterior DIP joint as opposed to mid aspect of the distal phalanx (fleshy part of finger) of the 2nd finger. Try that for a change, Drew ....really, it helped me a whole whole bunch. Sorry guys, but easier for me to explain to Dr Drew using this terminology. BTW, Fred Missildine from Sea Island, GA taught me that little bit of wisdom, many moons ago.

Thanks Buzz. Dan Lammers did magic tuning the locks on my Smith before he left Phoenix. A crisp let off is a thing of awe and wonder, helped my flinch enormously, and ruined any chance of using a gun with a mushy heavy trigger pull

Amen, brother.

SRH

Some interesting images

Monte Carlo, and no way could I rotate my hand like the fella in the foreground. Shooter in the background has a lower elbow and more anatomic grip



This is from the 1900 Olympic demonstration sport; Grand Prix de le Exposition au Tir aux Pigeons, Cercle du Bois de Boulogne.

Lunden won with his straight grip, Mackintosh of Australia on right with a POW



Lunder appears to have elevated his right elbow and rotated his grip somewhat like the guy at Monte Carlo



Mackintosh with a more anatomic position grip

Drew, I have at least two advanced degrees in flinching. It was so bad I was a walking shooting hazard. It was so bad that I quit for months only to find my flinch waiting for me when I returned. Tried using middle finger, shooting low gun, shooting a dozen different guns, shooting with a patch over my non shooting eye thinking my flinch had become a visual thing, then learning how to shoot left handed after 35 plus years as a right handed shooter.

Ended up shooting about 40-50k .410 shells left handed, over several years until my left handed shooting was competitive, 94-96 scores most days at Skeet with several 99's and one lucky 100 straight. Even learned how to shoot trap from the 16 yard line with a .410. Not as hard as most think it is. Then went back to shooting right handed over a full year by shooting some rounds left handed and some right handed. It really freaked out my squad, when I would shoot the first round left handed then shoot the next one right handed. Don't do that in registered targets if you do not know your squad mates. It will mess with their minds. Or do it if you want to mess with their minds. But thanks to a lot of .410 I out grew my flinch. It is still there from time to time but now days I can withhold fire and ride the flinch out well enough to break the bird at what are long range shots.

Anyone who has a decent flinch has my sympathy. They are such a bear to get rid of and you never know when they will happen.

The great J.A.R. Elliott with a straight grip Winchester 1893; similar hand position as the gentlemen at Monte Carlo



Capt. "Blue Rock" Money with his pistol grip Parker; lower elbow and more anatomic wrist

Flinches are bad, but there are more than one kind. I developed a flinch about 15 yers ago that would manifest itself as an inability to pull the trigger. I say should, but it still does from time to time. I would think "Shoot!" but my finger would not move, still does not move. I can recover in a split second and usually break the bird late.............sometimes very late............think, it's feet are about ready to alight on the ground. The better I am shooting, the less flinches I have. Average over the year..............maybe one flinch per 100 targets, but it used to be as bad as 5-7 per 100. I once asked Jon Kruger to help me with my flinches. His reply was "Who's going to help ME?

Back to the topic.............flinches have nothing to do with how tightly we grip our gun...........................or does it?

SRH

That's what it looks like when you look in the mirror, while holding a straight grip gun.

SRH

This hurts just to look at. Erminio Frasca, Italy, 2008 Bejing Olympic Trap. Comb is in his right nostril, thumb touching his nose, wrist contorted, and finger just touching the trigger