I'm looking at a Charles Daly Lindner Diamond Quality (similar to model 275 but not sure they were called that in 1893) 10 gauge.

It was once a beautiful gun. However there are some key problems that won't be easily addressed. I am in discussions with the owner (not a shotgun guy but very familiar with vintage firearms) and both of us are having a hard time coming up with a sensible number given the current condition. The fact it's a 10 gauge is also complicating things.

Please note, I am not asking whether this is a restoration project that is worth undertaking. I'm simply trying to figure out a fair market price for a gun of this kind of original quality in this kind of current condition. Photos below.

The gun was made in 1893 and sported "Finest Quality Damascus Barrels". No idea what length or chokes because they have been cut to 22". This was done quite a while ago and the new muzzles have been somewhat damaged in the meantime. Not bothering with photos as you can all imagine that crime scene. The gun currently weighs 7 pounds 8 ounces, so my guess with complete barrels is that it would have been close to 8 pounds even.

There is a large chip (missing) from the left cheek. Clearly it had been repaired once before but is now long gone. A little damage to the chequering on the cheeks. Rest of the wood is restorable. Original butt plate is on the gun.

Action is tight and on face. Second trigger is not working. Gun hasn't been apart in years and neither the owner nor I are making a guess as to why not. Ejectors seem fine. Few gouges in the metal work. Engraving is still sharp. Here are some pics. I have more if there is something specific you want to look at. Although none of the cut end of the barrels. Just the markings and top rib.

Easy to think about price if the barrels were whole. There was an interesting thread on the 16 gauge forum about how barrels cut to 24" would affect the value of a M21. your thoughts about pricing would be valued.

My question to you would be why would you want to buy this anyway?

JOhn Boyd

Thanks for responding John, but I tried to be clear. Not looking for a discussion of the wisdom of buying it, simply a price.

I suspect we could all agree we might buy it as a curio for 25 cents and we wouldn't buy it for $10,000. So it has a value somewhere between those two extremes. I'm simply trying to find out if there is a consensus as to what that value is.

CB,

You are describing a gun with a bad stock (someone may repair the missing piece), barrels that are bad (cut poorly to 22"), and an action with some issues (2nd trigger doesn't work--may just need a cleaning or something got lost with stock piece). It's a 10 gauge with 22" barrels. Other than home defense, maybe slug deer hunting or a turkey with open chokes--what other uses would it have?

The action engraving is nice. What is a suspect Linder 10 gauge action worth?

Ken

Well, you could repair the wood for a reasonable amount, but sleeving the barrels is a $3-4K job plus the price of having new ribs made and fitted, and when you're done, you have a sleeved Lindner Diamond Quality Daly, which probably doesn't have half the value of what you've put into it. I wouldn't pay more than about $1500 for it, and then only if I really wanted to restore it to some of its past glory and didn't mind losing money on the deal.

That it's a 10 gauge wouldn't bother me (I own a Hollis hammer gun and a Darne in that gauge), and it could be a wonderful waterfowl gun with sleeved barrels, which would also let you use modern shot.

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Spot on: what is the intrinsic value of a Lindner - Daly frame, along w/ ejectors, being a piece of high art by Fritz Heimbeck, student of Hugo Kolb, H.A. Lindner's Uncle I believe?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I'm closer to 25 cents than $10K. Rem40x has a good number, but maybe $500 unless you can fix the wood and action as your own project.

Ken

Yup.....maybe a grand or so.

I passed up a stunning Pape project gun this weekend. I may regret it but at the same time I am not low on projects.

The gun is worth precisely whatever someone will pay for it.
Mike

Lot of tears and not many dollars

Sorry, repost delete

500 if you can shoot 10ga at cowboy action shoots.....

I have carried many a 12 gauge for field use that weighed 7½ lbs. Shortest one had 26" barrels. None of them were near that pretty though. Loaded with 1 1/8 oz of shot I could see me taking it out for upland game.

With a 10 gauge that light there's likely not enough wall thickness to put in a bit of jug choke or tubes. It might be possible to have someone install a light fixed choke tube in the left barrel to make it a bit more versatile.

I'll leave the price evaluation to others though. Won't want to pay a whole lot for it, but don't really see that you would ever come out ahead spending a lot on "Fixing" it back up, too much to do.

I agree, $500 maximum. And that's just to have a sample of his fabulous engraving.

I can see the attraction, but I can't see any value.
So I tend to go even lower than 500.
My preference would be to never have seen it because that engraving & original quality make it hard to forget.
I feel it may be useless other than to look at or as parts.
Really low ball him & be prepared to walk away is what I would do.
O.M

Mike99 has a 10 ga., 32" gun like this one for 6500 on gunbroker. Metal and wood are very nice. It tops 8 pound 8 ounces which I expect was about your guns original weight. Asking 6500 but it has been for sale for a long time. So maybe 80% of that as the real value.

7 pounds 8 ounces might be a decent feeling gun to shoot even with those 22" barrels if it balances half way decently. Chokes might be added by either a screw in choke tube or a permanently soldered tube. Load down to 1 1/4 or 1 1/8 ounces should be a decent load to use in it. Sleeving it would be a great option if money was not object. I'd sleeve it down to 12 ga. with a set of 32" barrels or sleeve it to a 10 if you must.

As to price I have to agree 500-1,000 at the max. Higher if you can shoot it as is and less if you know you are going to spend a lot of money on it. The wood problems are very easily taken care of, but those barrels are not going to be cheap and there are just about zero chances of finding a set of orphaned barrels out there.

$200 considering that I have no idea who would take on the sleeving the reribbing and at what price. The hole in the stock is a much simpler situation. The market price of a sleeved Daly is very low, especially in ten gauge. The realistic price would be in negative figures, but I'm willing to go the $200 because I am a sucker for an orphan.

Yeah, I too think at the top end the components may be worth 5 Texas Tens. And being akin to 8bore, I'd give it a home & become the custodian for between $200 & $500.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

You know Canvas-Back, it may better suit you to barter, trade or the like?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey, that was my thought as well. Tried it. Looked through the safe and grabbed a couple that I could honestly say I would be happy to trade. A problem with that is he's focused on rifles, not shotguns and I don't have rifles. He's gone away for a month or two. Cabin on an island off the grid. So it's not going anywhere in a hurry. I believe his interest in it for himself is as a curio. But if he sells it, I suspect he wants to maximize his return to direct the funds to where his real interest lies. I'd be doing the same.

Thanks for all who chimed in with a price. So far ranged from a low of $200 to a high of $1500 with an average from the nine who posted a number of $720.

As someone said many times, it's worth what someone will pay on any given day. With 10 of us coming up with a number, I can see a consensus from what I would describe as knowledgeable SxS enthusiasts. Thank you.

As something is worth what someone will pay, it is a parallel axiom that it is the decision of the traveller whether to go down a certain path- in this case one of restoration. Since your opening comments preclude a discussion of those merits, and you seek to limit input to value of the particular firearm, I have little to offer. I know little of these guns, having handled just one in my lifetime. That said, I take a slightly different approach: if the seller can respect it for what it once was, and is "noble" enough for that sake to see it restored, perhaps he would give it to you for what he paid and let you start on that journey. Hopefully he didn't pay much, maybe a couple hundred.

There is the anecdote out there, perhaps only myth, of the wealthy collector who added an exquisite Strad to his inventory of art and antiques. A gifted violinist visited one day, and the collector graciously took it out for the musician to see. "May I play it, sir?" He answered, "Of course," and the master violinist proceeded to make it sing as its maker intended. Turning it over and around with a last glance and forlorn farewell, he handed it back to its owner. "Oh no," the rich man said- "it belongs not on display or confined to a case, but in hands capable of realizing its potential. It's yours."


My .02, and hopefully the owner didn't pay much more than that.


Mike

You are buying the engraving, waiting for a set of 10ga barrels to show up somewhere.
I'd go a grand, just to have it around for the wait.

CZ, that’s exactly where I am.

Sort of how I see it as well.

I have unpure thoughts for what is left of the current barrel set, 12 bore round ball gun anyone?

My thoughts, also, I have some rifled 12ga blanks that would go well there.

I'm in the >$500 camp..

I have seen a few 10/12 sets. Perhaps you could find a donor gun in 10 or 12 to liberate a set of barrels from. I know it’s almost a sin to do this but using a lower grade gun barrel to return this gun to service might be a option. At one time I had several dozen orphan barrel sets hoping to find a use for them all. I did use about a third of them to either return a gun to service with bad barrels or make a composite two barrel set. Gave up on most of the rest except for a couple very early Lefevers and Fox. For every set which I could fit I had many, many which were not even close. Same make doesn’t not mean a good match and Lindners seem to have changed slightly over the years such that getting a easy match is going to be luck of the draw. But you never know.

Could you get a cheap Spanish 10 gauge side by side and use the barrels as donor tubes for sleeving?

When I first saw this post pop up, I immediately thought $500.00. It's a very handsome action.

I appreciate all your suggestions about what to do with it if I am able to acquire it. Trust me when I say I have thought of all these options and then some.

If I was able to acquire it then there is the balancing act of restoration to some level vs unlimited funds spent. At this point I’m really just trying to get the gun. If I’m able to do that, then the next steps would have to be decided. I am likely to, somehow, get proper length barrels back onto the gun. Whether that is by sleeving, donor barrels or brand new tubes I don’t know and the decision is a long way off.

I would first get the action working properly. Then I would address the missing wood from the stock. What happens after that, only time will tell.

Because everything on this project hinges on the barrels, I'd get them figured out first before spending time and money on the action and wood. You sound up for the project, despite its challenges, and I hope it works out for you.

Vikingmy, some guys who collect love the thrill of the chase. For me, my favourite part is transforming something that’s been abandoned, neglected and abused. Staying “above water” is a little meaningless to me.

I’ve managed to get to a place where it’s not the possession, it’s the process.

What an absolute shame that a gun like that was absolutely ruined. Fixing the mechanical issue, significant stock work and new barrels is quite the momentous undertaking. Hopefully the seller appreciates your efforts and cuts you a break if you are up for the challenge. No more than $500 to $700 with all the work (cost) that is needed. Good luck.

Anyone that knows me will tell you that I love Lindner Dalys, so here's my take on the price - $500 with an extra $200 if I can meet the complete MORON that cut the 8 -10 inches of off the barrels. They deserve to have the said 8 - 10 inches put in a place where they can't loose them!

Is there any chance it could be used to shoot round balls?
Thought a 10 bore ball would probably recoil horribly in such a light gun.
But It sure is pretty...worth something just as a lovely piece of art....how much do fancy Tiffany paper weights go for,or a nice oil painting?
Its a tough question...
good luck
franc

With regard to the criticism of shortening the barrels. Given the condition of the rest of the gun, how is it possible for any of us to know how badly, or if, they were damaged.
Mike

Assuming the trigger can be fixed, I can see this as a great turkey gun. Have Dennis Earl repair the stock, get Briley to re-face the muzzles and put in permanent full and full choke tubes, and maybe even have some nice simple open sights made to suit. Regulation of barrels critical here. Sling studs not a bad idea either.

Bought right, you wouldn't have a fortune in it and would own a very beautuful and unique gobbler-getter and short range hog gun with buckshot.
JR

I bought a pretty high condition BH 10 gauge Parker with 17" Damascus barrels and a bad restock for a decent price. I figured I could afford to have it sleeved and a new rib would come from an old useless Parker. The stock could wait. I had the gun for a few weeks when I went on a rooting trip to the gun room. Somehow there appeared a set of Titanic Steel #3 frame ten gauge barrels with forearm that I had completely forgotten that I owned. The cut off original barrels fit almost as well as the Titanic barrels.

Mike,
you are perhaps right about there being some good reason for someone to lop off the bbls,no sane bloke would do that without one ( I hope) but what a bummer !
It seems such a lovely piece, that for the right price, whatever that is, it could/should be made into a some kinda something.
Could you sleeve it with big thick rifled 12 bore bbls, to bring the weight up?
It sure was/is a beautiful gun
cheers
franc

I'll say this again....I'm only interested in figuring out a consensus price for the piece as it is currently.

If I'm able to acquire it, then there is only one path....restoration to a proper 10 bore shotgun, as Herr Lindner intended. No other path will be considered. If you want to have a discussion about the wisdom of that kind of approach, please start your own thread.

I personally think it's nuts that people spend years and many $1000's on high condition low grade American guns. They were hastily made in large factories to hit a price point. But today people spend more on those than they do finely made mid quality English guns. But I don't get involved in those discussions and I don't tell people they are nuts to do so. To each their own.

I believe I can see Bernard pattern Damascus beneath the patina. You might be able to find an old set of Parker Bros. Bernard (CH) tubes that could be sleeved
into the original tubes. You might be able to cobble together a full length rib by splicing the Daly stamped section onto a nonoriginal rib. You might be able to find a set of diamond grade 10 gauge barrels( I sold a 32” Bernard set ~ 15 years ago)
A lot of “ might be’s“ here.......
If you have the time to spend on researching and acquiring the needed parts, the resources to engage the necessary gunmakers/ craftsmen, and the desire & patience to see through your project to fruition, I say “ damn the torpedoes”!
The key decision is whether you want to do a true restoration, or just “ salvage” what used to be a very special piece of Prussian craftsmanship.
If you choose restoration, be prepared for a long journey that you may tire of before you reach your goal.
Best of luck with whichever direction you choose.
Best Regards,
JBP

I'll remember to keep my off-topic thoughts to myself next time. So, staying on topic, ask him what he has to get for it. If it's too much, offer less. You already know what you will give him. Deal with it and let us know what you did...
JR

John, I will. I wasn't trying to be rude....I just didn't start the thread to talk about directions I won't be going in nor did I want to justify what I will be doing. I've read enough on here about "not getting your money out" to know where it was going to go. That's all.

JBP, I've done this before, although I haven't had to replace barrels before. A sympathetic restoration of the highest quality is the only thing that interests me. If I acquire the gun and if a full restoration proves too much for me, I'll send it down the road. I have no interest in trying to "salvage" something.

In a perfect world, when CJO hands me back the Lindner Diamond 12 gauge he is working on for me, I'll hand him this and the appropriately sourced additional components.

I'd be a lot more concerned about the second trigger not working if there was evidence that Bubba was in there. But the screwheads all look pretty good. You already know that the barrels are the heart of the gun, and whether sleeved or saved with orphan barrels, the work will result in a gun with much lower value than one with good original tubes. But I think it's a gun worth fixing if you can.

You may remember Terry Buffum's "Clunker Optimus" Lefever restoration project that saved a work of art, but was still not a shooter after several thousand dollars of work, plus the initial expense. This isn't as rare as a Lefever Optimus, but it certainly transcends into the realm of gun artistry. And CJO is certainly a guy who could make this Lindner Daly pretty again. Let's put this in perspective. If you could nail it for $500.00 or so, you wouldn't be one-millionth as crazy as gun guys who vote for anti-gun Democrats. Or you could be like Jagermeister and save all of your money for an extra nice casket with solid brass handles.

There are lots of other guys who like the challenge of a restoration project even knowing they will end up under water. So if you can buy it right, you can always re-sell it and get your money back if finding the right barrels and parts proves too difficult. I can't wait to see it when it's done.

I have a set of 30" 12 ga Lindner Daly damascus barrels in excellent condition, #7xx from the second number sequence. They would be legitimate candidates for sleeving with the correct DNA but as Eightbore points out, "Who would do it?" If you could find someone, I would guess the labor would be at least $3000-4000. The wood I would be $600-800 minimum, fix the buggered screws and other metal $300-500 plus the gunsmithing repairs and I would have a very heavy 12 ga Lindner made Daly with beautiful engraving with $4-6000 invested not including the price of the gun...or barrels.

The rib would not be correct for a 275 Diamond so it could never be sold as a real Diamond Quality. I just sold a 275 Diamond at the Southern (9xx) that had been rebarreled with proper Krupp steel but did not have the Diamond Quality marked rib and it didn't have the crossed pistols under HAL on the new barrels but the barrel knitter was "RS"....Lindner's guy. The gun was otherwise excellent with killer wood. I sold it for $2k less than I would a pure example.

Bottom line, if I got the gun for free I'm under water before I start.

Life is full of illogical actions, and at the end of the day, we do things we want, not always according to what we need. I buy a vehicle, knowing it depreciates right away. I spend a little more on this or that- because I can, and want to, and enjoy it. I decorate my house according to my taste, not worrying about how it will affect resale value 20 years from now.

I have a composed, three barrel set for my Ideal. I have no chance of getting anywhere near half back of what I have into it. Guess what? I couldn't give a bass' rat. I love the gun, and what I've done. It is so versatile as to be the equivalent of more than three guns, and it handles the same with any of the three on it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

As stated in the OP, justification for the project is not the purpose of the post- just the value of the gun to make a fair offer to the seller. I agree with CZ- you would basically be buying the engraving, with the prospect of a long term project as parts or options became available. Looking at the pics, I'd give 500.00 for it to put that engraving on display- it deserves to be seen.

Mike

Huge money pit. I would pass on that one.

From the sounds of things JM, you pass on all guns.

All, but one.

So, what qualifies you to hold forth on all the others........................what you can "glean" from others' writings? Can't be experience.

SRH

Jagermeister, all you need for an appropriate finish to this fantasy is to tell us that your new, recent, and imaginary SLE double gun was a gift from an equally imaginary friend named John F. Kennedy.

It's not fantasy. This year I'm going hunting which I have not done for several years.

For whatever my opinion is worth, if I live long enough I've several guns that I hope to bring "back from the dead" and not a single one of those guns would ever be worth the investment doing so would require. I seriously doubt I'll have finances to get them all done, but I'll do what I can; and I'll do so because I know they're rare and deserve to be preserved. That was a beautiful Daly when it was new and what a pity that it has been so abused; so if not you, then I hope that at some point someone will restore it to some measure of its former glory.

Any effort from just a simple display to delving into the money pit to bring it to a state that would allow one to press it into service is a tribute to the mechanics & their talent for the period. Considering total production, I don't think we'll ever see such talent again.....


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I think there have been enought comments on the price. $500-1000

So if you want it just buy it.

Then set aside $5000 for restoring it.

Years wait or more?

John

I had a gunsmith friend who died many years ago. He was in the trade for 60 years and was very well know. He was a outspoken, and a little gruff. He would tell of the times that someone wanted a gun restored and it was a real tird. He would tell them that it was not worth the effort, time and expense. That is would not be rational to restore it. He said after the customer kept pushing the issue, he would say leave the gun here and $500. I will call you when I use up the $500 and you can send more!

JOhn

John, I'd like to buy it. I would tomorrow if the owner would part with it. He's on the fence AND he's away for an extended period of time. If and when I'm able to acquire it, I'll let the board know.

In the meantime, I'm glad, and I'm sure the rest of the board is, that you have decided there have been enough comments. Everyone stop now.

You are right....the consensus seems to be between $500 and $1000. That's what I was trying to find out, so thanks all.

Well Jagermeister, if you are fantasizing about going hunting with an imaginary gun, you might as well go for imaginary big game. I would not trust bismuth loads for Tyrannosaurus Rex, and I certainly would not try using a gun that was actually being held on Layaway like many of the guns you have told us you bought... but never actually purchased:

Thought I would bring this thread back from the dead, but for a specific reason. As many of you know, CJO did hand me back my 12 gauge Lindner Daly a few months ago and it's damn near perfect. And while I won't be turning over to Claudio the 10 gauge that was the subject of this thread, I will be handing him a recently acquired Lindner made Charles Daly Diamond model 275 in 20 gauge, a somewhat rarer and more desirable configuration.

As usual with me it will need a little work but this time it's just wood and finishes....relatively easily done stuff. LOL Relatively is the operative word. Barrels are next to perfect.

Might be a better investment of time and money than the 10 gauge.

James, please take pics of the 275 before and, if Claudio will do so, during his work on it, like he did the 12 ga. That is a great thread.

SRH

Stan, I will. And I’m glad you liked the other thread. When we get to this 20 gauge, it will show off a whole different set of Claudio’s skills. But it will be a while before we get started. Maybe this time next year.

CB... dang where you find all these Daly's.

battle, I think I've just been lucky. Now, I will say that I will take a chance on a gun many others will pass on. As Claudio mentioned with regard to the 12 gauge, we weren't sure the barrels could be salvaged. So the rest of the restoration had to wait to see what could be done with the barrels. And that's a gamble many won't take.

Lindner stuff is between Brand Value level BV2 and BV3, say BV2 1/2. This gun looks to be Original Quality grade OQ1. Current Condition would be CC9 (unshootable without major repairs or wall hanger).

BV2.5 - OQ1 - CC9 = $1145 for a 12 gauge gun. I don't have a "ding" discount for 12 to 10 bore. My SWAG be 3/4X so $860.

Don, I appreciate your efforts but you’re looking at the original gun this thread was started for. A 10 gauge Diamond Quality model 275 with barrels cut to 22”

I resurrected the thread to note that I was not able to do anything on that 10 gauge but I will be proceeding with a recently acquired 20 gauge, same model and quality level.

Canvasback, I recall some time ago you were negative toward 20 gauge.
Thanks for renewing the thread, though. Brings back memories of countless irrelevant posts by Jagermeister followed by slams by Keith. I had Jager on ignore at that time, not because I disliked him, but more because his comments did not add to a useful discourse. Since Keith quoted him each time that JM posted that turned out to not be an effective strategy.

Can't wait to see your Daly's. Have fun on the road trip.

Thanks John. I stayed away from 20’s simply to cut down my options for buying. Finite funds and infinite appetite. Lol. Was just talking with Chris Dawe 15 min ago about that problem. Haha. But I have enough now that I feel okay expanding. So of course I also bought a 28 gauge.