According to the writings I have of V M Starr, the grand old man of m/l shotgunning, he choked his old original English m/l shotguns, though I cannot find where he actually said he jug choked them. I always assumed that's what he did, because I cannot think of another way he would have choked them himself. He commented that he had an 11 bore Moore that would shoot 80% patterns with duck loads. I have always had a question about how he overcame the problem of swaging the wads as they passed through the choke, then having loose wads in the load.

Does anyone have any other writings of Starr's that would address the actual jug choking, and the wads he used and how he overcame the aforementioned problem?

Thanks much, SRH

Stan, my 60 year ago memory is that he said he jug choked them. I had his little booklet back then but long gone. Gee, where have the years gone!

Go over to American Longrifles and post the question. Surely one of those old toots will have a frayed copy of Starr's. http://www.americanlongrifles.com/

Thank you, Joe. I just went there and registered, and will post the query when I am allowed to do so.

Good idea. SRH

Stan, there are a lot of very fine and knowledgable folks over there. And some of the best gunmakers in the country. You might also check out the Contemporary Longrifle Association, https://www.longrifle.com

You can read V M Starr's book on line here;
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html

As I recall, Mr. Wm Brockway used to post on here occasionally, years ago. Sure wish he was still around to ask.

Maybe someone here or there will know.

SRH

Thanks, Miller. I have that already, but was hoping for some further things he may have written on jug choking and loads.

SRH

I had the honor of talking with Mr. Starr over the phone many years ago, most of what I remember about the conversation was about hunting and the then new steel shot, I did call to ask about jug choking because he was the master, however that part of the conversation is rather misty.
He was very generous with his time, such a nice guy!

TM

He jug choked them. As I remember he went back 8" to start the choke and continued forward 6". The last 2" in front of the muzzle were left alone. I read his book explaining it and it's what I've always done when jug choking a gun. First it was muzzle loaders in the 70's and now SxS's that use shells. It was a book I got years ago from a county library.

Jug choking works well if you do it 5-6” long instead of the 2” I’ve seen tried which does very little to tighten a choke. Not enough bore for the shot to open up so you can squeeze it tight again.

I have had one gun jug choked and had several we could not do it because the barrel walls were too thin. If you have a set of barrels, which are .020’s 4-6” from the muzzle, you don’t have enough metal to work with. One set of barrels looked great from the muzzle end with .030-.035 metal to work with but six inches back they were .022-.026. The bores were straight but the exterior was struck thinner away from the muzzle. I wanted .020 choke added but taking .010 per side away would have left them .012 and .016. Time to measure wall thickness and let that be your guide.

I guess a card or wad will pass through the choke area, jump across the back bored area and fit snuggly down the rest of the bore. On the way out you might get a trivial amount of blow by in the back bored area but it should have little effect on the pattern. Those guns with termite holes along their muzzle, proported to clay target hunters, seem to suffer no ill effects with that gas loss. The Russians bored a lot of their Olympic Skeet guns that way but the fad never caught on here in the US. Tulia chokes was the name as I recall. Two versions, one with a Olympic-wide muzzle type and straight choke type with the intent to keep chokes tight and eliminate all fliers

In the late '60's,VM choked my lightweight Dewson 10 bore that the old RR engineer I got it from said belonged to a cook at Teddy Roosevelt's ranch and had been used in New York on passenger pigeons. VM's shop was an easy drive from my place. Anyway, I was very pleased with the results. I won a trapshoot with the gun and shot some sharp-tailed grouse with it, but mainly used it for pass shooting waterfowl.

4 1/2 dr. fG and 2 oz Lubaloy 4s would really reach up there.
I remember one shot in particular at the Salt Lake Pass when three redhead drakes fell belly up inside a 20 ft circle. I heard one guy on the pass yell "What the hell was that?" when he saw the big plume of smoke and the birds rained down!

I do not think having a short recess in a jug choke is detrimental to it's performance. In my experience, a little longer than the shot column will produce tight and even patterns right up to full choke. Having jug choked well over 100 barrels, I have not found it necessary to go longer than this.

Thanks for all the replies.

SRH

Mike how do you measure the shot column when it nears the end of the barrels? I looked at VM's reamers and they looked to be 4-5" long, but distance between the tapers may have been much less.

Brought this old thread back up as I found this old picture of V.M. and me at his shop in 1968.

[img][IMG]https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/60057_600x400.jpg[/img][/img]

Hal, the only way of doing it is with adjustable reamers, at least that's what I use, and they're all 4 to 5" long. They only get larger in one spot so it's necessary to move them back and forth the distance necessary to open up the barrel the correct length. Did I make any sense ?

Stan, e mailing you a copy of VM Starrs discussion.
Anyone else need it, send me a note to l.stallones@centurytel.net

Thanks, Leighton. Will read it now.

SRH

I am quoting from V.M. Starr "The Muzzle Loading Shotgun its care and use" from page 2 " I have choked the old gun to shoot 80 per cent patterns in either barrel to reach up after passing ducks, wide flushing pheasants and wise old crows that come to the call high up where they think they are safe but seldom are."
V.M. calls his 11 bore Wm. Moore Sue Betsy. A fun read.
Dave

Mike, I have never cut a jug choke or patterned one. Don't even own one. However, I have some fairly strong ideas of how choke works. I'll opine that a jug choke will work just like a normal choke if the constrictions are the same. I'd expect that failure of a 2" jug comes from failing to get sufficient constriction. It takes a thick wall to give up 0.030" diameter near the muzzle.

On the breach end of the jug, what sort of transition do you cut from bore diameter to jug diameter? Short taper, long taper, more or less a step?

DDA

Stan, not a jug choke really but the inverse would be a Beretta 390 Super Skeet barrel. Choke is 6-8 inches down in the barrel with about 3 inches of tapered expansion chamber in front of the choke to the muzzle. Like a Tula choke.

I've had some discussion with the guys at Charlie's shop. The think they can replicate it with a Comp N Choke tube.