I can't figure out how the extractor on my Lefever H is supposed to stay secured in place on the barrels. If I'm not careful when I pull out the empty shells I lift the extractor rod completely free of the barrels. Wondering if something has been removed in the past.

There should be a tiny machine screw in the back end of the slot in which the back end of the extractor rides. Its head acts like a bumper to keep the extractor moving too far back when barrels are off the gun. I doubt it could work itself out and I've even seen those that had to be drilled out. Some one must have removed it. Sorry, I don't know the thread size.

Nope. Picture No.1 clearly shows that slot and extractor retaining screw is not present on this apparently very early H grade. And it isn't missing either. Later guns had that feature, but not this one. I am surprised to see this feature on an H grade, and assumed it was gone by the time the H grade was introduced.

This is a new one on me. The "Slot" that NE mentioned is machined into the bottom of the rib extension, from the pictures it is not present on this gun. Likewise the top of the extractor is flat, it does not have the projection that fits in the slot. As the top projection riding in the slot prevents the extractor from Rocking none of mine have the guide pin above the extractor stem. I cannot recall having ever seen a Lefever extractor set up this way, but obviously this one was.

As NE said this type has either just a screw in the slot or in most cases a T shaped block set in. In this case a cross cut is milled across the bottom of the rib extension & the narrow end of the T fills the slot to the back of the extension & the wide part fills the cross cut. The extractor is thus stopped by the top projection bumping into either the screw head or the block.

Some earlier guns also had the slot in the rib extension for the projection on the extractor to ride in to keep it from rotating, but didn't have the stop screw. Obviously, that version didn't need the guide pin. Another example of Dan Lefever constantly tinkering with his designs.

Solution: Be careful you don't lose your extractor... especially when you remove the barrels from the gun!

Keith;
Yes, I have an early 10 gauge Lefever side pivot with rod cocking which does not have the stop screw or block. The extractor on that one will not however simply fall out. You have to actually spring the stem a bit to remove it, was made that way intentionally. This was though close to 10 years prior to the H grade being introduced.

Miller, it would be interesting to know the serial numbers on the barrels of this H grade, and whether they are original to the gun. I have several Lefevers with extractors that will just fall out, including at least one with the guide pin. But none of them require any flexing of the extractor to get it to come past any sort of stop.

I learned about this during some moments of panic when I didn't notice that the extractor fell out of an early pivot lever gun while cleaning it, and it bounced under my workbench.

Agreed on Keith's correction. After reading his reply I expanded pic #1 on my desktop and I don't see the guide slot or the hole for the bumper screw. This is a new one on me.

There are some extractors on two hook and early large hook guns that are not retained with a screw as in the later guns. If pulled hard enough, they can come right out. they are held in by tension from a small spring inside the barrel lug.
Now... there is even some variations of this design. I have observed guns as close as 50 numbers that had different extractor operations and retention designs.
A Pain... I know.

Couldn't a small screw be installed behind the barrel lump and cut a shallow notch in the extractor rod for the screw to ride in and act as a stop?

For those interested the serial number is 25925 and matches on the receiver, barrels and forearm. Perhaps not noticeable in the first pics, the end of the extractor rod is filed flat on the bottom and in front of the hook there is a crudely cut V that doesn't look factory done. You can notice rub marks on the bottom rib in front of the extractor rod suggesting it my have been cut down/or perhaps that is rub marks from the forearm extractor hook.

Lefevers. Everyone another special case. Lots of changes over the years. Some things added and somethings dropped. Only maker I know who increased the amount of engraving as time went by on each grade. My early E, F, G and H have much less engravingcthan the later ones. Adjustments screws went away also. His was a fertile mind which seemed to be ever trying to improve his gun. Maybe he had to just to keep up with the times and other makers. Having a cup of coffee to discuss how and why he changed his doubles would be a very interesting.

My pivot lever 10 gauge is an E grade SN 10,515. There is no spring in the hole in the barrel lug where its stem fits. It does take an intentional effort to remove the extractor which is done by Springing the stem itself. When re-installing there is obvious interference between the top of the extractor projection & the bottom of the slot in the rib extension. Again the Stem must be sprung to re-install.

My next Lefever up the laddder is a G grade two hook gun, SN 20,633. Guess what, it indeed has a flat top extractor with no slot in the rib extension & the extra guide pin for alignment. It does however have a short slot milled in to the upper forward end of the extractor stem with a closed end. This is engaged by a screw in the forend iron when the forend is snapped on. With the barrels off the gun the extractor can be simply slid out. This gun does not have that slot in the stem.

This is a quite low SN for an H, am guessing it is a small hook gun as all the Large hook guns I am familiar with do not have the extractor stem visible forward of the hinge joint.

On my lowest numbered Large hook gun, a G SN 29,471 they had gone back to the extractor projection & rib slot. This seems to be continued on through remaining production & these have the slot blocked as mentioned. I had simply forgotten I had this one gun with the different set up using the guide pin rather than extractor projection as that was used both earlier & later.

On this early large hook G though it appears after the extractor was installed the walls of the slot were given a slight staking to prevent it coming out. If the extractor had to be removed this staking would have to be removed & then be re-staked after re-assembly. I like the screw or block retention a lot better.

I would bet this gun had some system of preventing the extractor from coming out when removing shells or empties with the gun assembled. Will probably take some careful searching to figure out what & where it is.

Yes, you probably could make such an alteration. But then you'd be altering the originality of the gun and obliterating a piece of the Lefever puzzle. That's why I said the solution is to simply be careful to not lose the extractor. It has been just fine as it is for 120 years, so why mess with it now? This kind of variation is part of the charm and interest in collecting Lefevers. But it is also a reason why it can be very difficult to find a matching part sometimes when you are doing a repair or restoration.

Jon;
If you note catalog prices over the years that Lefevers were produced they stayed essentially the same price per grade. Other makers were reducing the prices of their grades. I have always figured this was the reason for the engraving up-grades. Lefever stayed with the same price for the grade but up-graded the engraving, then added a lower grade at the bottom for the lower prices. On very early Lefevers E was the lowest grade, F was then added. In the very early 1890's with introduction of the two hook guns the G was added. Late in the 1890's the H was added & then in the very early 1900's the DS/I grade would become the last addition to the lower end of the line.

2-Piper, I agree but I still note that every other maker made their guns cheaper an plainer as they went while LeFever went up as they went. Also LeFever marked his grades to prevent retailer claiming a lower graded gun was a higher priced grade.

I have always wondered the classics what if about LeFever? What if he was born 20 years, later would his guns been so diverse? What if he had not suffered a almost total loss of everything due to a fire, would he have so many partners? What if he had a marketing genius for a partner would he have lasted longer? I never get the feeling he was a bad business man but more that he was always under financed or moving onto the next great concept before the last one had worked out. Ansley Fox was much like that as well.

I own a 12 gauge F extractor gun #25179. The extractor will fall out the barrels with the gun disassembled but not with the barrels on the receiver. The breech face prevents the extractor from falling out when assembled. The extractor looks just like yours.

I have learned to take the extractor out when cleaning the gun and then simply replace it.

Buck Hamlin offered to put a retaining screw in for me but I decided not to bother. Just have to pay attention and wonder why Uncle Dan laid this extra chore on me!

Miller, I wonder if your large hook G grade that has the slot in the rib extension staked to keep the extractor in place might have been something done by either a gunsmith or a previous owner? Now I have to remember to look at my other guns to see which version they have.

I briefly thought about doing some kind of alteration on one of mine after I briefly lost it under my work bench. But I'm pretty much against doing anything to alter originality. Besides, as Dr. P points out, the guns I have that don't have anything to retain the extractor can only have it come completely out when the barrels are removed.

I still find it kind of cool to think that even the most advanced collector doesn't know everything there is to know about these guns.

Keith;
That is of course a distinct possibility that the extractor slot was staked after it left the factory. There is no screw hole present in the rib extension so without the stake the extractor would simply pull out.

On none of mine though will the extractor pull out in removing shells. They either have to have a block removed, forend removed or an intentional effort made to spring the extractor out. These all require the gun to be disassembled.

I do not have as many as some collectors but do have from a low number of the 10,515 up to 73,338/73342 with the rest scattered between. I only have the two mentioned which are pre large hook. I have the E grade & two G's mentioned, then an FE @ #38,025. The rest are H grades & all of my H's number in the 40K range & up. Have these with & without the 1907 patent date so a fair assortment from different eras.