I am a dbl gun addict, a hunter, an engineer and a fully licensed ffl and a Californian

Typically I hate the vitriol toward CA. Recently one of my favorite wholesaler, Zanders Sporting goods sent out a letter suspending deliveries to CA because of some stupid Prop 65 (hazardous) warning labels. I know Zanders will work it out. I mad at the terrible comments on facebook from all of the people who hate me and other Californians and think no one in the industry should do business in CA. I have seen examples here too over the years. For all please read the following I posted in reply (after calling the morons, exactly what they are).... Think about this before you refuse to sell a gun to CA...We must all fight the battle together!

My Post:
Sorry for calling some of you guys morons… that does no good. You all need to understand….
The major geographical portion of CA is conservative and for a lot of us our business revolves around agriculture. We are people just like you guys. We vote conservative, we go to church, we love our God and Guns, we hunt, fish and enjoy the outdoors…..just like you! I personally spend about 40 days hunting each year and another 25+ days shooting Clays. There are a lot of people just like me (and you) here.

We are stuck with a population base in the Bay area that is tech based and liberal, yet the remainder of CA feeds the nation.

All of you who do not want to send guns or do business with CA are hurting the people that have the same values as you do…. Yet you all buy cell phones from apple, software and computers developed in CA and watch movies produced by the liberals in CA. I am not asking you to stop buying tech, just asking you to remember that we need support too.

I am a member of SCI, DU, and a NRA patron. I was the vice president of the CA Side by Side Society. For years I used my FFL for free to support these organizations at fundraisers. In addition, I once was a director of the California Waterfowl Association. Over the past 30 years I have been directly responsible or involved in raising over 2 million dollars for these organization. How many of you can say that?

So, please temper your comments about the other people in CA, think about it before you refuse to support people just like you…while your texting or checking facebook on your Liberal profit-making device.

Good Hunting and Shooting to all!


Jerry

Well stated Jerry.

Gorblimey!

Seeking Alpha is neither liberal or conservative. It’s American.


_______________________
California is one of my favorite places on Earth.

Well said.

There comes a time to make a stand or get the hell out of Dodge...and you missed your chances to do either years and years ago.

The San Andres fault is the only hope for California.

So stop whining Jerry.

I sell to CA. It takes a few extra minutes . Not worth losing a sell and a customer over.

Jerry,
I think we can find a place for you and will welcome you here in Alabama. How else will they know they are terribly wrong, unless we tell them? If you come, be sure to do it before the census.
Mike

Just for the record and the morons - I don't have a problem calling them that - there are more US Veterans living in CA than any other State in the Union. AND in the VN war nearly One in Ten!! - give that number some thot - KIA were kids from CA.

CA haters can GFY since they certainly don't know WTF they're talking about

Mr. Mele: Exceptional post, clear and concise. I fear that I too have lumped all Californians together at times in past conversations and humbly stand corrected here. California is what many states are now becoming, Colorado included, so I can't fairly cast aspersions any more. Our country is at a bit of a precipice these days, and all gun and freedom loving citizens need to treat each other with more than just a little common courtesy.

Dilly, dilly.

A person would have to be an absolute moron not to recognize the pro military stronghold of the nation. Great point, the state is run just like the military, Stars and Stripes in full display. Can you describe what it means to be a CA lover, in a self gratifying way?

Just go back and look at Dr Wanker's posts repeatedly bashing the pro-gun candidate Donald Trump before and after the election. Look at what guys like him and Replacement have to say about the NRA.

That is why gun owners in California are losing ground. There aren't enough San Francisco techies to do it alone. But with the help of Libtard gun owners who support anti-gunners, well, you see the result.

I don't think anyone hates California Gerald. But you sure have some whacked-out self destructive people that are screwing the place up. Sadly, some of them are gun owners too. I don't think you can fix that by embracing them while they stab us in the back.

The idea that all gun owners are working together in some ridiculous Big Tent is a lie. We have traitors in our midst, and refusing to call them out is like hiring a pedophile to babysit your children.

The divide in our country is not North/South or anything regarding the various states - it's urban/rural. Or in redneck terms, it's city folks vs country folks. And even that isn't entirely accurate; there are plenty who live in cities and support the 2nd amendment. I suspect most of them have some sort of history or connection to the rural areas.

There are folks living in Birmingham, AL who see the world much like the majority of those in San Francisco. And there are those who live in rural New York state who think much like those in Slap Out, AL.

I don't know a solution for this divide. I am afraid it doesn't end well.

Californians are not hated here. We just do not understand how you've let them take your state away from you. We hate what has become of California. Paradise lost.

Of course we're not burdened here in GA with San Francisco or Los Angeles. Atlanta may not be much better though...Geo

George, I’ll try to answer your question as simple as I can. The population density in California is located in the San Francisco Bay Area and the Los Angeles basin. When you give those people free shit,they are going to vote for you no matter how stupid you and your ideas are. Issue illegal aliens ID cards so they can vote and get free shit and they are going to vote for you. It has been a lost cause since The 1980’s. We conservatives are way outnumbered.

Jerry,

My advice to the Californians like you is to go to the Bay Area and knock some of those males off their tricycles.

I have a niece who "lives" in San Francisco. She rents a bedroom with bath and kitchen privileges for $1700 a month! She is a "veegan" and worships Yoga. We don't have a whole lot to say to each other.

I have clients in CA and it's not that difficult to ship to them.

Don't feel too badly, a lot of really good people get "represented" by crazies.

Somebody tell Wonko the Sane that Viet Nam War era California went to pot.
Mike

I always just chuckle when I see so many guns for sale with sellers that will not ship to CA.
It is just out of ignorance and the pubish no one but themselves by not getting a sale.

Being able to ship to CA and be within the law is not all that big of a deal. Just an extra step. Not an act of God.

People should be free to conduct their business how and with whom they choose.

You don’t like it, do business with someone else. Or, start your own.


Best,
Ted

I'm never anymore amazed at the quantity of BS a brain apparently the size of perhaps a walnut can contain. Is there some deranged (that would be specially deranged since regular deranged is standard) right wing propaganda methodology that compresses the BS? Or is it that if it is repeated at high enough volume repeatedly it compresses itself? Over the years it seems that drone just fades to the background and the BS becomes a new truth. Just like Skinner said. And Goebbels. Some of you here would likely be worthy objects of study to determine how consumed by crap a presumably originally potential healthy mind can become. That would be if anyone would be able to tolerate soiling themselves to do it.
To those who feel the need to disrespect the members of the military that died in the service of their country merely because they were Californians, my fondest wish is that you bleed out slowly.
have a nice day, culos

Could be many reason someone would toss around the memory of fallen heros like a hundred dollar pump gun, but I think you hit the nail on the head.

coosa's observation of urban-rural divide interests me. First settlers to Nova Scotia from the Old Country made sure no more laws to keep people away, the land is for everyone. All land is open for hunting and fishing except cultivated, orchards, vineyards, active forest operations, property fenced to keep cattle in or people out.

It works well. Geo, a non-taxpayer in Nova Scotia, has the right to pass over my lands, put up a tent around our house, enjoy the flora and fauna as long as he does no damage---and I pay taxes to live where I am. Hunting regulations confer distances away from residences for public safety. Fishing, pass over any land on foot to water.

The urban-rural divide becomes apparent when mostly urban dwellers lobby government to regulate where and when and how private landowners, working to the world's most responsible sustainability standard, will cut their trees. They use our lands for recreation and want to regulate how we manage our business.

Hunter-landowner disputation is rare. Entry is often prohibited with no tresspass-no hunting signs in proscribed places above, and hunters are respectful not to get up our noses should they enter on private property, which is 75 per cent of our province's geographical area. The Golden Rule reigns.

It looks like King is off his meds again, and wandering aimlessly after attempting once again to dishonestly portray himself as a pro-gun activist in his "Fait Accompli" thread. That didn't go too well after he got tripped up by his own anti-gun rhetoric and his previous posts... again. Who was it that said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result?

Fait Accompli- An Anti-Gunner tries to fool us

Then there's Dr. Wanker, who obviously needs some meds and mental health treatment... lots of it! This babbling buffoon is now seeing disrespect for California military veterans where there obviously is nothing of the sort.



Now there's a good example of why some distributors don't wish to ship guns to California, and why normal California gun owners are losing ground to the antis. But it does cement California's claim to being a leading producer of nuts.

We have the exact same problem here in NY. I feel your pain. NYC does the same for us. They control Albany and are responsible for the stupid Safeact and every other liberal idea or law we have. I’ve been all around the country and wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. We have such a variety. The Adirondacks, Catskills, Lake Ontario, and my favorite the Fingers Lakes. We have awesome fishing, hunting and any other outdoor sports. I hate when I tell people I’m from NY and they automatically think the city. It’s a shithole and I’ve only been there once. Don’t care to go back. We need to separate!!!!

So I will always do business with California. I’ve had the same response. People see NY and don’t want to deal with us either.

I tried to find anything that was derogatory toward California veterans in the post, and, I have to agree with Keith, there simply wasn't anything.

Dr. Sane, why do you always insist you haven't made your political leanings clear here? They are there for anyone to clearly see, somewhat thinly veiled, here, but, wide open and public for anyone to see on your Facebook page. You are not invisible, and, rather easy to find, along with your views. yet, you deny that.
How come?

As to the actual laws that make it more difficult for dealers and laypersons selling firearms to those in California, who, exactly, has been saved by these laws? What heinous crimes have been prevented? I submit the laws are simply doing as intended, making people outside of the state wonder what law passed by Californians they are going to run afoul of, and to simply wash their hands of anything to do with the big left coast. The average gun seller has no intention of doing something of questionable legality, even if accidentally, and certainly wants no part of being tripped up in some other state's useless added paperwork or hoops. I don't see that as "hatred", simply a decision of whether it is worth it to that individual to comply with pointless law passed by others that he had no part in electing. Many, have simply chosen to punt when it comes to California sales. I don't blame them.
If you have a better explaination, I'd love to hear it. If anyone has a better explaination, I'd love to hear it.

Best,
Ted

Jerry, I empathize with the true sportsmen in CA who are "suffering" under such onerous laws, and I do appreciate your support of the NRA and other sportsmen's affiliated organizations. But, I think saying that, because residents of other states choose not to do business with Californians because of what they deem to be too much red tape, is a lack of support for you is a stretch. Support has nothing to do with it, IMO. I'll bet you that when you get a grassroots organization going to overturn your liberal government you will have the support of every right-minded sportsman in the nation.

Just choosing not to do the extra work necessary for other states' residents to sell guns there is not a "lack of support", it's just a reasonable response to unreasonable regulation that y'all allowed to happen.

SRH

It took more than pot to fry their Californicatin brainz...

If there ever was a modern Sodom and Gamora it resides in California.

I don't know if it applies to this topic, but this state seems hell bent on expanding liability risks even if all the I's are dotted and the T's crossed. It sure looks like a money making opportunity for an economy that shouldn't need it, and a nice little backdoor way to engineer behavior. I'm inclined to agree with Stan's thought. If reasonable residents take back the state, these problems will be forgotten in the blink of an eye. Until then, I'd rather pay more to not lay over in one of California's great airports. Not because of hate, but because of the warm and fuzzy pride the folks show in a job well done.

The world would be a better place if the Pacific ocean waves were crashing on the foot hills of the Sierra Nevada mountains.

What most of you seem to be missing is the unarguable effects of having massive urban areas making up a significant (majority) of a state's population. As Woody402 pointed out, those who live in upstate New York have the same issue.

And suggesting they just elect more like minded individuals who will fix the problem is so foolishly simplistic it borders on willful ignorance.

As long as the state's population base is dominated by those who live in LA, the Bay area and San Diego, this problem will exist. As it does for every other jurisdiction that is dominated, population wise, by very large urban areas.

Rather than shitting on other gun enthusiasts, you would do well to find a way to support them. You will be next. There is an ongoing and massive demographic shift from rural to urban, from small towns and small cities, to massive urban regions. It's only a matter of time before it comes to a state near you.

And before my advice is misconstrued, it applies equally to those who vote for anti gun politicians, no matter where you live. That constitutes shitting on other gun owners.

Yeah, that post caused me to go back and re-read the thread. I couldn't find anything about disrespecting vets either. Recoiling from ghosts who aren't there. Weird.

Stan and James, I don't get animosity between people because of where they live, how they vote or religious associations. (If I don't like the way they do business I don't do business with them.)

My friends on this forum are mostly conservatives because this is mostly a conservative board. My hunting and fishing friends here are almost exclusively conservatives. I respect American friends as much as my Canadian.

Character comes first. Take James, an unreconstructed Tory who batters here with me, and only a travel glitch prevented us from getting together last year.
American friends know the door is always open to them here.

Intolerance, hate of another's opinions, is discouraging. Who wants to live in a community, state or country where everyone thinks the same?

Hate, animosity? Just terble, King.

Same as what? Are we thinking we're all just socialist, but don't know it? cback touched on it. What's a national border or stuck on the wrong side of the tracks, when when a polar opposite ideological adversary might be sitting in the next seat or pecking out a tolerant euphemism the next minute? Another season is on us and again I wonder, where's that complimentary waterfowl license? Big sigh.

You’re confusing Scotland and New Scotland. Boy, craigd, you want it all. He’ll let you camp for free in his yard. I’m just wondering if he’ll let me run an extension cord out to my pup tent so I can watch Hockey Night in Canada.


_______________________
I love these hockey threads.

Craig, I'm not sure what I touched on... ....but I don't hate people for what they think. To hate someone, and there are very few of them....I try not to have much hate in my life...brings me down more than it does anything else....they have to actually do things. Not think them.

To me that's kinda like free speech. People should be able to say what they want, no matter how vile I may find it. It's when it swings into actions that it's a problem.

Having been raised Anglican (Episcopalian to you guys) I am now an atheist. And from where I sit, there are a lot of people on this board who profess to be Christian who do a piss poor job of being Christian, if their comments here are any indication. (Stan, I am specifically excluding you from that generalization)

Most of us have full lives, with competing interests of family, job, accident of birth etc that have influenced where we live. To suggest it's a conscious and specific choice that should have been made only for the sake of our gun and hunting rights and privileges is to deny the reality of most of our lives. It has nothing to do with being socialist.

It's kind of crazy, isn't it? We're all of one blood with endless strains of believing in any one social, political and economic community. I get a kick out of liberals rated below atheists in the US. I don't think people can be easily labelled. Why the appeal of Sanders in old Vermont and across the country? Why the Washington scene for a man who called it as he saw the public interest---and called him a maverick? There's a lot more goodness than it seems. Call it what you want.

CB, Your last post is a breath of fresh air - clear,brief, and to the point. I second everything you said there.

I just hate it when you make sense. Well, either that, or it's a package deal? Now there you go, I just bummed myself out a little. Maybe, King could cheer me up a bit if he makes sure his camp grounds has wifi and pizza delivery out at the blind? cback, I'm gonna ask King to type really nice things about you so that you feel like you want to bring the beer. After the shooting's done, okay?

Fans of Les Kwee-beckers are rated below both. At least in Detroit.


_________________________

I call it quits.
https://youtu.be/g35TH9GNkFA

Craig, always after the shooting!

And no problem....I'm happy to bring the beer. It'll be Canadian (I don't mean the brand).

After following this tread for a while I will put my 2 cents worth in. I am 84 and havelived here for most of my life, I seen this state change from a conservative state to the monster it is now. It really all started in the 60s when the courts decided that our 2 house legislature should be based on population; originally the assembly was population based and the senate was 1 senator from each county, this worked as a counter balance to keep things equal. Then it seems like every one was moving here and living mainly in the large cities, so we became more liberal. When the liberal politicians had control they gerrymandered the legislature districts to maintain their control. Then came the influx of legal and illegal people and more liberalization. Now it seems that anytime we have a problem a new law is passed to solve it (usually it just makes it worse) as a result it becomes more difficult to do business in this state and many are beginning to move to other states. Agriculture is also having its problems, An appointed water board is trying to take 40% of the water used for irrigation in the San Joaquin Valley and send it to the ocean, supposedly to help the salmon population. It dose'nt matter that this valley is one of the most productive agricultural areas in the world. Many think that it is really to replace the northern water that governor moombeam wants to send to Los Angeles. The lesson is don't think this cannot happen to you, a good example is Arizona, all you need to do is look at the Pheonix area to realize that it is beginning to happen there, soon their population will be a majority if it is not already and the influx of people that want something for nothing will drive politics. There is a proposal to divide California into 3 states but that will never happen, the central and northern part of the state has most of the food and water, the southern and San Francisco areas have mostly people and very little water or food. I am sure many would like to leave but are like me, trapped with what I have worked all my live for and in reality no place to go. What really bothers me most is what this country will be like in 50 or 100 years. It's sad that the great experiment will have failed but I am glad I won't be here when it does.

Maybe the San Andreas and jOes earthquake will make that happen.

I’d like to be up on Keys View when it does, smoking a big, fat bowl (of tobacco!)... fine blonde, cold Pabst in my lap,
I’ll adapt, to any and all situations...

California...a beautiful mess.

__________________________
https://youtu.be/voaGM4CMQ9c
I heart Detroit

Well, let's break this down point by point King. Liberals are probably rated below atheists because atheists aren't generally trying to raise our taxes, redistribute our hard earned income, sell out our country to illegal immigrants to buy their votes, or relentlessly work to take away our Gun Rights.

Of course, you're both Liberal and atheist, so you've got all the bases covered. As for the attraction to Bernie Sanders, go back and re-read all the things Liberals like, and put special emphasis on the Freebies that come by picking the pockets of your fellow citizens.

Then there's McCain, the so-called maverick. You Liberals would never honor him with that maverick tag if he was not far Left of most Conservatives. No... then you'd be calling him the same thing you call Conservatives... greedy, selfish, hater, racist, misogynist, and all those other nasty adjectives you use when you aren't hypocritically trying to convince folks that you're better than all that. What a joke.

But what does your rambling have to do with the reasons some firearms distributors don't wish to do business with California? Do you ever get tired of bringing your anti-gun Liberal Left politics to this forum? Where are the Thread Police when we need them???

I just finished the Reno show, and I have never seen so many people who wanted nothing to do with the insane liberal/progressive/Marxist/heathenistic politics of a state. People drive for hours to simply buy ammunition where they do not have to register to buy it. They often try every conceivable ploy to buy guns the same way... some of the guns they can buy in any state EXCEPT California. In our shop, we can sell a long gun to buyers in any state of the union and they can go home with it EXCEPT California. Some manufacturers won't sell their guns in California as the one-time somewhat reasonalbly priced required safety test of dropping a gun on its hammer has changed to a once a year test at an exhorbitant price. Frankly, screw California and its prolific drug needles and defication in the streets. I have nothing but disgust for the liberals/socialists/Marxists/heathens who live there. I have pity and empathy for the REAL human beings who live there. I gave up a huge amount of money when I moved from there 34 years ago, but it was worth it when I could breathe again as soon as I crossed the border. I hate crossing the small patch of it when I go to Reno.

As far as associating with liberals/socialists/Marxists/Godless heathens, I simply Do Not! With all the good people in the world, why associate with scum and reprobates?

I’m guessing Pete doesn’t get into Portland often for coffee at Starbucks.

We can only hope the earthquake takes Eugene and Portland with it.


_________________________
Welcome to Nevada! The Wholesome State!*

*When compared to California

Is there still that wonderful SF plain-as-pudding restaurant, starchy white table cloths changed after each meal by fast waiters wearing aprons, serving best sea bass and crab I've tasted anywhere? Shame if anything happened to it.

It’s now a “shelter” where the homeless shoot up and poop.

I’m assuming you can still get “crabs” there.


_________________________
https://youtu.be/SC73kdOL5hk

Sitting on a roll of carpet outside the Oval Office, Teddy shared a Hershey bar with me. WH still there? Shame to let it go.

I was sitting in a Tim Hortons in Ottawa and Justin(e) walked in and a woman went nuts and threw poop at him. Shame she missed.


_______________________
Teddy? Roosevelt?

Shame Kingy doesn't move to Frisco. It's his kind of people.

As far as Portland goes, it doesn't even have a decent gun show unless you like beanie babies and beef jerky.

Portland is now 12% Republican. lr's comment is well taken. Rock & Roll.

The way King likes to throw pOOp in his own face he'd fit right in.

These chaps gave me an idea.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/04/11/san-...liberal-utopia/

King

Need your address. See box 4 of halk’s thread.


_________________________
This is my yard!

Where in Hell did this come from? And what on Earth does it have to do with the topic?

First we have Dr. Wanker imagining disrespect for veterans, and now King is playing with his imaginary friends again.

Jag just booked a flight to Portland.

keith

King’s either dropping acid or got some bad shellfish.
Eating chocolate with Teddy Roosevelt in the WH. Heavy, man.


___________________________
Need that address, King.

You never disappoint me, lonesome. If you're not having fun, you're not living!

And thanks for the Federalist story. Real reporting.

Yeah, I enjoyed that story as well. As King says, real reporting.

Also, Detroit sucks except for Motown and Kid Rock.

That's some secret San Francisco fAg code

You make me laugh, too, Joe. Thanks.

I am a native Californian. When I was growing up there the population of the entire state was about 8 million people. There are now about 40 million. That's a 500% increase and you can be sure that most of them came from the states where YOU live. WHY?

They wanted warm weather and a chance to make a decent living. And it is THOSE people who were instrumental in bringing about the political changes that have alienated so many people. It's the state you love to hate. And it's coming to your state next.

Me? I'm in southern Arizona as I type this. I'm done with California - paradise lost.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool that to speak up and dispel all doubt.

Why???...

Uh, how about Freebies and the Liberal Weenie Welfare state which acted like a magnet? How about natives like Dr. Wanker who kept voting for the same Liberal Left assholes even after they saw that their state was swirling down the toilet in spite of an enviable agricultural climate, deep water ports, and abundant natural resources? Governor Moonbeam, Dianne Feinstein, and Nancy Pelosi didn't come to you folks from my state.

Tent cities and interactive online poop maps citizens can use to avoid the places where the highest numbers of homeless people are crapping in the streets aren't enough. Now they're actively recruiting an ever larger influx of illegal aliens.

If it comes to our states next, it will be because we allowed ourselves to be fooled by people like King Brown, Dr. Wanker, and the disseminators of the Fake News that is aimed at reversing the real progress we made in 2016 to repudiate the Mental Illness we call Liberalism. The wackos will be out in force this November, and it is up to us to show up at the polls to counter them.

Sure folks moved to Cal. for opportunity. I myself have an aunt that moved there in the seventies. Her husband is long gone and my cousins are out of the house. Her very modest quiet neighborhood now looks like Beirut.

Among many other highlights, that formerly great state is the number one importer of illegal aliens, and the number one exporter of progressivism to the western US. Here's hoping Arizona can withstand the attack. Where's RM Bill, he knows how to demonize an R, while reluctantly admitting his neck of the woods have become the summer playgrounds of bored and rich kaliforn'ans. Heck, for defense of ideology, he'll tip toe around criticism of kali policy.

It's not lost on me that there are many good folks out there, but that state generates policy, congr. reps. and electoral votes that extend far beyond simply leaving that state line in the rear view mirror.

Craig, I don't know where you live but let's take Keith's home state as an example.

Pittsburgh and Philly are pretty blue. And have been for a while. Does that make all Pennsylvanians Libtards? Is Keith a Libtard?

If those two urban areas dominated the state population the way the Bay area and LA do California, then I'm pretty sure there would be a host of idiotic leftist laws in Pennsylvania.

The problem isn't Californians. It's the urban areas of the coast.

And those Canadians pouring in those areas at 33,000 a year, attracted by opportunities in tech and comedy industries.

Should have moved a couple of states further. Unless you don’t plan on moving soon. There’s always Mexico I guess.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbe...-unsustainable/

Hank Williams Jr in Laughlin Sept 22


_____________________________
If Heaven ain’t a lot like DEE-troit, I don’t want to go.

Bite your tongue! What did I ever do to deserve this!!!

Seriously, and in craigd's defense, he did say that there are many good people in California. We all realize that. I spent several months working in California when I was in college, and have a number of relatives who live there.

But I was able to see, even as a young man with a college educated ideology, that California was being taken over by snowflakes. And I therefore never had ANY desire to live there.

Despite the fact that most of California's Liberal problem is centered in the L.A. and San Francisco urban centers, one of my relatives told me a couple weeks ago that she and her husband are retiring early and getting out of Dodge before things get any worse. They are moving to Utah. She told me that their lovely city has been over-run with homeless and illegals who have been driven away from the San Fran area. Also, an influx of middle class working people have fled those areas because people making less than $250,000 to $300,000 per year simply cannot afford the astronomical housing and rental costs. Those costs are driven by wealthy Liberal techies who... guess what... aren't willing to share to help their homeless bretheren. That has increased demand and real estate prices in her area to the point that landlords are evicting tenants to take advantage of skyrocketing property prices, and creating a new class of homeless. She never dreamed that thousands of people would be living in tents and cardboard shelters in parks and under bridges in her town, and frankly, neither did I. Budget deficits in her town have prompted lawsuits by public works employees because even employee restroom facilities have been closed in spite of large tax increases. Yet the city still wishes to extend even more taxpayer funded benefits to illegal aliens and drug abusers.

Welcome to Libtardville. Coming soon to your area... unless you are intelligent enough to learn from the failures of Liberalism and Socialism provided by places like Venezuela and California.

I'd be glad that people like King Brown lived long enough to see their Liberal left Utopian vision crash and burn, but he is too entrenched to acknowledge the reality of veterans and working class people living in boxes and defecating in parks, and he's still imagining some quaint Seafood Restaurant by the Bay from 40-50 years ago. And people like he and rocky mtn bill are too busy hoping they can find some loophole to impeach Trump and get back in power to finish the job... a job which includes destruction of our 2nd Amendment.

California was going broke when Arnold was in charge. That the enormous wealth generated by the tech industry which leads to ordinary people being priced out of a decent living is somehow the fault of Democrats would be funny if it weren't so stupid. The basis of this crisis is that the economy is booming along, but ordinary people derive no benefit. Wages have been stagnant for decades. All the gains accrue to those already wealthy. Republicans won't touch this issue for fear of offending their donor-handlers. Democrats may not have all the answers, but they acknowlege the problem. It won't ever be solved without a bipartisan effort.

Hahaha, that's really hilarious. Now the Libtard rocky mtn bill is attempting to convince us that California is really a secret Red State, controlled by greedy wealthy Republicans.

Even the Fake News boys at CNN and MSLSD wouldn't be so brash as to try to get away with bullshit like that. But Billy is terribly entrenched in defending his precious anti-gun Liberal left Democrats... even the incredibly wealthy ones who spent over 1.2 billion dollars attempting to elect Hillary Clinton (breaking the record previously held by Obama). It's good that they have millions of brainless dupes like Billy to make excuses for them.

Billy is once again whining about stagnant wages, but frequently bashes Trump, who is attempting to fix the rampant influx of illegals and the insane trade deals that cause stagnant wages. Engaging in so-called bipartisan efforts with the very people who are stabbing you in the back and undermining the Constitution by attempting to stifle free speech and infringe upon the rights of law abiding gun owners is simply stupid. Voting for anti-gunners is about as intelligent as hiring a convicted pedophile to babysit your kids, unless your goal is to ban guns. But that's what rocky mtn bill and King think we should do. That's the kind of stand-up guys we deal with here.

There's plenty of evidence that employers have conspired to keep wages down. Look it up for yourself.And, the excuse for cutting taxes for the super-rich was that they'd use that money to pay workers more. Now there's a joke. Corporations used their windfalls to buy back their own stock. The corporate world, with some rare exceptions, has no sense of obligation to anyone but themselves. The Koch brothers are out to own and run the world. Their propaganda industry has brought them lots of support from the very people they're out to starve. C'est la vie.

Those who enjoy and hope to perpetuate hunting, have to be in favor of controlling climate change which is the looming threat to all life on this planet, including ourselves. Habitat is a base line requirement for all life forms. To me, the choice is clear. One party says party on. The other party says we need to change our ways. I'm planning to continue to own firearms, but I also want to go living in a world where the game I enjoy hunting can thrive. We can't have it both ways. Either we continue as we always have and take the consequences, or we do whatever is required to keep the planet habitable.

Well, someone sure has drunk the Kool-Aid.

But wages and employment levels are rising thanks in large part to those tax cuts Billy. Greedy corporations are indeed moving capital and investment back here to the U.S. after decades of flight. I'm getting invitations for job interviews every week, and that sort of demand means employers are offering better pay and benefits to attract workers. We have a dirty evil Republican named Trump to thank for that. But you want to see him go to jail. Now why don't you show us the evidence of corporate wage fixing collusion you cite Billy. Or is this just another of your many Liberal propaganda lies, like the one you told about Bush reducing training teacher money when he signed No Child Left Behind?

You've always been very jealous and envious of the greedy Capitalists who provided your taxpayer funded teacher salary and benefits, haven't you Billy? You act like Corporations are a living breathing blood-sucking monster when all they are is a piece of legal paper in a filing cabinet that answers to shareholders and employs tens of millions of the taxpayers you sucked from. But we certainly couldn't expect intelligence or rationality from a gun owner who supports extreme anti-gunners, can we?

Interesting you crap all over the Koch brother's but nary a word about the new world order envisioned by Soros, Gates, Buffet, Bezos, Zuckerberg, et al.

The vast majority of activist billionires are Democrats. Good God man, where have you been? Out in the mountains?? Is this news to you?

What is the evidence wages are rising? And if they are, is it enough to make any difference?

Remember when George Wallace called Republicans and Democrats "Teedle Dee and Tweedle Dum"? Ceratinly ain't the case anymore. Now it's lovers of America and Marxists.

Of course corporations only hire people out of the goodness of their hearts. We can all be thankful that their workers have some income even if it isn't enough to allow entry to the middle class. Corporate profits are at an all time high, but wages remain unchanged for two decades. What's wrong with this picture? PS: Jealous and envious is redundant diction and neither one applies to me. My only interest is a level playing field.

My paycheck and my W-2 form, and those of millions of workers. And it isn't just the extra money we have from the tax cut.

Here's more from the Liberal USA Today Billy. But it won't make a difference to you:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/eco...o-far/36579285/

Now how about that proof of the corporate collusion to fix wages at low levels you told us about Billy. Was that just another of your Liberal lies? I'm going to keep asking you to prove what you said, and if I have to, I'll ask you in the Classic and Custom Rifle Forum where you hide your political views and support for anti-gunners. Of course, you can always hide under SDH-MT's apron again.

Oh yes, here's the difference between jealousy and envy Billy. If you were a good English teacher, you'd know the difference. But we know you weren't ever good at anything except spreading Liberal lies and supporting anti-gun politicians.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/jealous-vs-envious

I can offer two examples of rising wages myself, teachers in Ok and WV. They went out on strike and shamed their state governments into boosting their pay. Check out their exorbitant gains.

You wanted evidence of rising wages, and you even had some yourself. I gave you more, and there is plenty available. Were those teachers in OK and WV employed by greedy corporations?

Now where's your proof of corporate collusion to keep wages low Billy? And show us your proof that wages are unchanged for two decades. And please tell us why your precious Democrats didn't do anything to fix that situation when the anti-gunner Obama was in office?

Were you just telling us more lies? You seem to do that a lot.

I’ve been to LA about a dozen times this year. I think I figured out the cause of the homeless epidemic; the homeless are generally a bunch of foul smelling heroin junkies.

Downtown LA is a very special place. It is one of the very few places in the Western world where one will witness junkies openly buying and shooting heroin, in public, in the middle of the day. Nobody even pays attention (tolerance). Pershing Square is essentially an open air drug market. Used needles are everywhere one looks. After 8 pm the area transforms into an open air sewer/refugee encampment. In the morning the police and private security guards run them off so normal business operations are not overly disrupted. The cycle continues. This is the end game of capitalism: Security gates to keep the junkies out.

I’ve also been to Montana about a dozen time this year. It’s different. Wonder why?

So, some wages in some jobs are up. It's high time, and it's not for everyone. My sympathies are not for the highly educated. They can fend for themselves. I worry about those on the bottom. And they are not on the radar of the ruling class. For all his bluster, Trump is not bringing coal back. It's a dead end, but people who've spent their working lives at mining coal need some real help.

When Bill takes a leak it's pure kOOl aid...

Hj, I forgot that Tennesee was granted an exception from climate change. I'm glad you don't have to worry about it. Please share the secret so that the rest of us can rest easy.

I'm sure Al Gore the idiot that invented the internet and climate change got us that exemption...

A close relative has been on hard times making max a buck above minimum wage for the last 8 years. Two months ago he got a job for almost $16/ hour. He is a Trump Voter now.

So, now Billy says that coal miners need a hand after his Liberal Left anti-gunner Obama screwed them into the ground.

And wages are not going up for every profession. So when did that ever happen? Ex-teacher Billy apparently never heard of supply and demand. And Billy still won't produce his evidence that Corporations are engaged in collusion to keep wages low, nor his proof that wages are unchanged for decades.

C'mon Billy. Put up or shut up. All you have shown us is that you are an agenda driven liar. Prove that you're not.

The secret? It's easy. Man made climate change is bullshit.

And imagining that we can "fix" it. Well if that ain't a recipe for disaster I don't know what is. The hubris astounds.

The world's climate has been changing for 4.5 billion years. Better get used to it.

I'll tell you why....because for 5 months of the year, the junkies freeze. Self correcting problem. The smart ones head to the coast.

Canvasback, if the truth about climate change were easy, you'd think that would be clear to 95% of climate scientists. But then perhaps you have access to better sources of information. Perhaps you just happen to be the world's foremost climate scientist yourself. More likely. you don't know jack shit about the subject except that it feels inconvenient to you.

Hey Bill, what about the Socialist billionaires. You skipped right over that. Talk about inconvenient.

Maybe it’s you that doesn’t know jack shit about business. Never had to make a payroll. Never invested your own money. Never took a risk. Just took the public’s money and messed with their children’s heads.

You’re making it hard for me to keep it light. If you want to get personal, I can do that too.

C B, the socialist billionaires concern me a great deal less than the other kind. I apologize for the personal comments. We ought to be civil here, and I'll try to be so. What I know about business is not from personal experience except that my investments have done quite well. I do note that corporate profits are record high ,and that makes me understand those companies could pay better wages without hurting themselves. As for taking the public's money, I must have misunderstood; all those years I showed up for work every day and saw my students improve their skills I somehow thought I earned that money. Could you tell how I didn't?

Bill, if you want to rant and rave, why not explain what a 'climate scientist' is?

Why don't you substitute in democrat? If not for grants and the cover of 'higher education', is climate scientologist a real job, other than being expert at submitting paperwork to renew the grants?

You said you don't care about the educated. Why can't this massive welfare industry just be redistributed to plain old, regular poor folks? I'm a bit concerned, why doesn't Montana make all those fire breathing dually oil burners pass annual emissions inspections. Why aren't your creosote fired wood stoves and retail store plastic bags regulated for climate change? They're settling down a bit, but why doesn't your state move heaven and earth to put out those wildfires that spewed millions(more?) of tons of pollutants into the air that the poor breath and change their climate?

cback, I dunno about that urban/rural division. I'd think by now, especially reading around these parts, you'd know that good ole boy that you chatted with back at the pickup after a satisfying bird hunt, could very well be a lock step party line dem. voter.

I'm positive all your students have become productive, outstanding members of society. Who taught the ones that make Montana the highest suicide rate state? How did they learn to turn to alcohol and victimless recreational drugs?

Craig, yes there are climate scientists. They study climate across a span of disciplines. One in my town at the university here shared a Nobel prize with other members of his professional team a couple years ago. His name is Steven Running if you'd like to check out his work. As for putting out wildfires, it turns out it doesn't help. What doesn't burn today grows to more fuel tomorrow. You and CB would do us a big favor if you'd explain how human activity does not effect climate. C oal production from the Powder River Basin exceeds 450 million tons over the last decade. Burning coal releases not just CO2 but other choice chemicals like mercury. Perhaps you have conclusive evidence that mercury is good for us.

That statement is illogical. Corporations pay market rates to acquire and retain the talent they need to make the business successful. If they are not paying competitive rates, they don't get the best talent and profits suffer. If you want them to pay better rates "just because," that is socialism. California is moving that way, but that does not make it right, and there will be backlash. Note that Disneyland in Anaheim recently announced that they will stop accepting tax incentives from the city, so that the city cannot impose wage rates on the park. Other companies just pack up and leave the state.

Is a climate scientologist one who studies climate with a goofy religious fervor?

Facts are always inconvenient to Billy. No way will he discuss those Socialist billionaires. And we have seen that he isn't about to address those outright lies he told us earlier. He said that Corporations are conspiring to keep wages low. And he said that wages haven't risen in 20 years. But he refuses to admit that he lied to us, and can't possibly prove those statements.

Billy has been caught telling lies and spreading dishonest DNC PROPAGANDA many times in the past. He'll engage you until you call him out on his lies, and then he thinks no one will notice it when he pretends to IGNORE your questions about his lies.

And by the way... Billy certainly never earned his teacher's pay and benefits. Why, until I shamed him into getting someone to help him with a spell-checker on his computer, this English teacher's posts were laced with grammatical and spelling errors. An English teacher who can't spell certainly makes me happy that the U.S. spends more on education per pupil than any nation on Earth. Every breath he takes is a waste of good air.

I think theyre the ones that give socialist demo'rats their annual finger wave to check for brain activity

Craig, our suicide rate and problems with drugs and alcohol are in part the result of the difficulty of earning a living here. Montana is a poor state. There are few job opportunities and low pay. Winters are long and dark. We don't have much in the way of mental health services. Our Indian reservations are where the problems are most acute. Developing economies there is a daunting task. I don't have any answers.

That's because the democrats brain is up their arsez...

A democrats only solution is to cry inequality or racism.

Well, you're pretty good at chewing out conservatives, could it be in part because of a mouth full of mercury laced fillings? Good thing your long, dark Montana winters are lit up with mercury filled fluorescent bulbs. Too bad they burn out in a tiny fraction of the time that the last admin. regulated them to last, eh? Next stop, recycling centers, or Montana landfills?

I'd prefer not to discuss 'nobel' club membership, paid for by grants and snowflaker's student loans. Besides, who was that reckless war monger of color that won the noble peace pipe prize for legalized dope?

Surely your not talking about the greatest sham ever pulled on the world ?


Rocky Bills president Obama.

How can you say, for a fact, that it doesn't do any good to put out a wildfire?

Your 'poor' state is liberally sprinkled with public health clinics. Look it up Bill, most only a few years old or heavily renovated. Look it up, one of their cornerstone mandates is mental health. You are willing to admit you don't know where the answers are, when all of this failure is courtesy the aca?

Maybe, for our grandkids sake, there might be a day when you can admit that pissing away billions doesn't do much good, other than a temporary talking point or two. Just because Montana is the playground of the ultra rich, you don't have to lower the bar for the regular folks.

Obama reminds me of Eddie Murphy in Trading Places.

https://youtu.be/v9JcJgXATU8

And don’t call craigd Shirley.

https://youtu.be/HMnVs287AJ4

Montana sounds worse than Nova Scotia.


______________________
Figured Bill lived in either Bozeman or Missoula.

The way a lot of these liberals are acting it might be time to open back up the old state mental hospitals.

Wow did I start a _issing match

Some of you get my post and some don’t but still emphasize with me. Some are just wackos

My post was I commented about all of the negative comments I got from Zander’s wholesalers Facebook site. Many of the idiots think that it is a good thing Zander’s stop shipping to California. This teaches me (and the 40% of Californians who do not vote for the liberals) a lesson. These are the same dealers who will not ship a gun to California mostly because they don’t understand the minor step they have to take to do it. They believe everyone here is at fault . The money in California for the liberals has 3 sources...the unions, the tech giants and Hollywood

My point also is we need to fight the fight on the front, We challenge every stupid gun law and hopefully we will get them to the US Supreme Court now the Trump is appointing judges.

Not supporting people like me is ironic, because these same people support 2 of the 3 source of funding for the dem’s..these misguided hate wishers sling their words toward people like me with the cell phones, the software, the computers and the iPads they bought from these firms. They do it on Facebook while they are shopping on Amazon instead of supporting local stores. After they watch the movie produced in Hollywood staring there favorite liberal actor. All I am asking is support the conservatives left in the state too. Hate does no one good.

The real irony is Zander’s stop shipping, not because of gun laws, but because the prop 65 “safe harbors” signs and labeling has changed and no one really is sure how to comply. (Prop 65 has to do with chemicals that cause health problems) We have crooked lawyers here suing businesses for having wrong signage just like the ADA crooks do (mostly did, because even our courts started throwing those cases out and punishing the lawyers). Hopefully this will go away soon. I am sure Zander’s will find a way to comply....Davidson’s and Bill Hicks are shipping to California.

So please support the 40% of Californians who have the same values as the flyover part of the USA

PS in the major geographic portion of the state it is easy to get a concealed wepons permit and many do. Gun sales in California have been good until Trump got elected. I’ll bet it will resurge again when that wacko Gavin Newsom becomes our governor.
So remember us in your prayers, support the red part of California too and don’t give up the fight

Respectfully submitted to all my friends (and my liberal foes)
Jerry

Jerry California is gone....

Jerry, your topic did evolve in several directions, but your point comes through very well. The diversions are interesting and contain some amazing information that can't be found anywhere else. Craig informs us that Montana's long- standing health problems are caused by the ACA. I'd never have guessed. Maybe he'll elaborate on that. For a fact, the ACA provides health insurance for more than 20000 people here who previously had no coverage at all. The Republican objection to ACA comes down to a denial of what it takes to make insurance insurance-- the mandate.No program can afford to insure only the sick and elderly. Losing a house to flood or fire is not a likely event, but we all insure our houses. A catastrophic health condition is much more likely, but somehow we object to making health coverage possible. If both parties could cooperate and work to bring treatment costs down ( didn't Trump promise that? ) the ACA would work better. At present though no better alternative is possible.

Bill you think it was wrong to close most of the old state mental hospitals ?



I'm betting a little research will show they were closed by liberal democrats out of fear of being put away.

I think it was a huge mistake to close State mental hospitals. The ACLU and a strong patients right movement had been pushing for deinstitutionalization for some time but it was Reagan's Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981 that removed most funding and forced States to release the mentally challenged.

I think Jerry is short AAPL and AMZN.

Cover, Jerry. Cover.


_______________________
Posted with my iPhone X.

Bill, when I said "invest your own money" I didn't mean the extra one might have being put away for retirement. I mean every last dime you can scrape together to fund your entrepreneurial start up. I mean taking money from your own accounts to make sure your end of the bargain got lived up to.....your employees got their paycheck on Friday.

It's a different kind of thing, embarking on that risk. The risk of starting something. Where your monthly pay is solely dependent on your ideas and what you do each month to make those ideas a reality. Where there is no back stop of the government or union to make sure you can pay your bills and buy food no matter how badly you screw up. Something you will never really understand unless you have lived it.

And if you think the people who do that....who drive the economy and actually create the wealth through their ideas and hard work.....if you don't think they deserve the rewards.....if you don't think they aren't already paying their fair share.....then I would suggest you don't know how it works in the real world.

Yes, there are a small number of people (billionaire types, many who are Democrats....we call them Limousine Liberals up here) who find ways to avoid taxation but there are millions of "millionaires" (probably in the range of 10 million of them in the US right now) whose vision, creativity, hard work and risk taking enables the country to be as rich as it is. They make the jobs. Even yours.

Yup....the homeless epidemic can be traced directly to this. Doesn't really matter who enacted the laws that did it. It was advocated for and pushed by the Progressive Left.

As for "pissing away billions" I nominate Trump's tax cuts and the boost in defense spending. Both these disasters are simply rewards to big donors. The rich hate government because they don't need it. They resent paying taxes for services they don't use. You and I need schools, roads, bridges, fire and police services because we can't pay for them privately. What's lacking here is a desire to create and sustain a cohesive society in which all members have the opportunity to enjoy healthy, productive lives. Trump's motto is Every Man for Himself.

It's a daunting task developing economies on reservations up here as well. But the liberal solution of treating them as incompetents, providing them with specialized benefits based on race and encouraging them to continue to live in isolated, rural backwaters while stoking their sense of victimhood has only exacerbated the problem. Hmmmm, reminds me of how the Democrats treat blacks.

While I understand the Liberal empathy for those less fortunate, it is staggering to me that your solutions, so often and with incredible regularity, are tried again and again always with the same failing result. At the same time, conservative notions of personal responsibility are, again with such regularity, at the hearty of successful outcomes. It speaks to the idea that it's not really about solving the problem but more about making the Liberal feel better himself because he can look at the effort and console himself that "we are at least trying".

The ONLY successful reservations I see in Canada are ones that encourage getting off the government teat, shouldering personal responsibility for one's situation in life and working hard to change it. You know....the recipe for success that most of the rest of us try to follow.

Bill the politicians you support have purposefully and with malice aforethought developed and encouraged identity politics to further their own nefarious ambitions. There's where your "cohesive society" is breaking down. It's not the rich's abhorrence of school taxes.....mostly the rich don't give a shit about school taxes...it doesn't add up to much for them.

I would dis-agree that it does not matter who passed the law. The liberal left certainly had an agenda, but so did Reagan and the Right. Same result but different motivating factors. Reagan did not want to pay for housing and services related to the mentally ill. The left felt that the "rights" of these folks were being abused. A bit of shared blame in my eyes. Reagan does not get a pass from me on this one. Reagan's desire was to balance the Federal budget, a Nobel goal, but he created a whole bunch of issues for the States which they were ill prepared for.

Bill, I was responding to the comments that you offered. I believe you mentioned that your state has inadequate mental health services and you had no answer for it. I never thought for a moment that you would believe me, but I still encourage you to look it up. There was a big infusion of money 'during the last eight years' doled out by out of sight out of mind programs with designated purposes. Interesting eh, you, meaning progressives, will throw millions at fighting substance abuse, and throw millions at lobbying for legalizing abuse prone, life wrecking opioids.

I've seen a hospital form at one of your facilities. Literally, the first lines, in bold type, had to do with penalties and consequences for not showing up for a medical appointment. Come to find out, medicaid participants, at least at some facilities, just don't bother to show up for somewhere around forty percent of their medical appointments, according to a friend that I trust. From my point of view, you get more mileage out of talking about the aca than your 20K that have no skin in the game.

Anyway, if you believe Montanans are much more likely to benefit from a catastrophic health condition safety net, what prevents you from focusing on your most likely scenario? I think you object to health coverage simply because you have the ability to flip on your rant mode and justify never being satisfied.

A very complicated situation James. Tribal bonds are strong. Indians do not like to move away from family. Reservations were placed in rural areas for a reason. White folks did not want Indians near white population bases. What does one do? I have very good Native American friends which I spend as much time as I can with each fall. Life is tough on the Rez. Not all of it is the fault of the Natives. Read up on the mismanagement of the Native American Trust Fund. Over 2 Billion in funds missing and when the suite was settled the Government had to restore less than 1/4 of it. Same story with Sales Tax revenues. When the Indians ended up with less than 50% of the land in Mellete County the State sued to claim sales taxes revenue and move the official Rez boundary. The Indians aggressively purchased more land and now own over 50% and tried to have the boundary moved back to the original position. No luck, the State will not budge and still claims all sales tax for itself. Much, much more to it than wanting to be on the Government teat.

Steve, to be clear I think very little of it is the fault of the Native Americans. I try not to be too specific because each of our countries have a different history and relationship with Native Americans.

What I do know is it is an unmitigated disaster in Canada, with leadership on both sides refusing to make the hard decisions that might move it forward to a better place. The status quo is encouraged because there are too many vested interests at this point. And the average Native pays the price while the rest of us funnel $12 billion a year down the rabbit hole to fund it getting worse.

As predictable as the sun rise, the Liberal left gunsmith SKB is once again denigrating Republicans by name. He claims to be an Independent Moderate, but he is always very quick to criticize Reagan, Bush 43 or Bush 46, or Trump by name. Yet for some strange reason, you just never see him calling out the Liberal Left anti-gun Democrats he obviously supports. His Democrat partisanship is as evident as King Brown's.

But he's dumb enough to think nobody notices.

IMHO Reagan was starting from the premise that there is a limited amount of money and choices have to be made. Just as each of us must in our personal lives. I have no problem with the idea that not all of his choices were great. But what the left misses with such astounding regularity is that somehow this stuff needs to get paid for. And if you fund enough "Pissing Jesus" artworks, you aren't going to have enough left over for the things that really need to be done.

It's the lack of discrimination on what to spend money on that gets me.

LOL, speaking of predictable....

Keith, it's possible for a politician (or individual) to disagree with the 2cd and still have a myriad of views and positions on other subjects that are good for the country. I'm not saying I'd vote for him but most of us are not that one dimensional.

It's also possible they support the second and they are idiots on everything else. I would not vote for that guy.

I completely agree about the need for balanced budgets but handing the problem off to the States did not save money or solve the problem. It may have helped balance the books for the Feds but in the end it is really more of a shell game than a solution. We now deal with those people in the criminal justice system. Those folks are not going away nor are the costs associated with them. They are members of society and they need to be looked after because they are not able to do so themselves. Closing the mental health institutions was a terrible idea no matter the agenda driving the decision.

Not much a team player are you James? Next thing you know you will be thinking for yourself.

Well, we are in agreement they need to be looked after.

As far as who pays for it, that's a bit of a shell game because ultimately the money only comes from one place. The taxpayer.

Now I don't know the intricacies of the division of responsibilities between the Feds and state governments but I do know the Feds have a habit of overstepping their bounds. It happens up here all the time. They do it with the lure of money.

Was this a case where the Feds had overstepped their bounds, taking on and paying for something that isn't in their mandate and Reagan reeled it back or was this a case where the Feds with clear responsibility for the issue, just bailed?

My point being that balancing the books....which all governments at every level should be doing, has to start somewhere. And to do so, difficult choices must be made, becasue there are a whole lot of idiots in our past who refused to do so, both Republican and Democrat.....Liberal and Conservative. No party in either country has a lock on behaving well, fiscally.

James, I wasn't talking about any anti-gun politician. How did you miss that?

I was talking about our Liberal left gunsmith SKB, and his failed attempts at hiding his disdain for pro-gun Republicans and his support for anti-gun Democrats.

My post had nothing to do with me being one-dimensional. It was simply to point out the silly and ineffective charade Lefty Stevie plays. He knows that many people likely wouldn't patronize a gunsmith who supported anti-gun Democrats. But he can't suppress his highly predictable knee-jerk response that compels him to denigrate pro-gun Republicans. If they would re-open some mental health facilities, he and rocky mtn bill would do well to use them since Liberalism is a mental illness.

I try to help him by pointing it out. He thanks me by shooting the messenger. Go figure.

Steve...I'm playing for the team that includes all of us.

Group hug

Knee jerk? I haven't looked it up but perhaps he's right about who passed the law. Maybe it was Reagan. I think most of us can agree that regardless of who passed it, a pro gun Republican or an anti gun Democrat, it had disastrous repercussions we live with today. What's wrong with making the point and refuting one more idiotic statement from jOe, that it was the Democrats?

What's wrong with real facts Keith, instead of jOe's fake news.

Can we get back to slagging California now?


_________________________
Come and get your love.
https://youtu.be/GooLNyuKqt8

If dim bulb Billy was attempting to demonstrate his ignorance here, then mission accomplished.

The ACA (ObamaCare) did not provide medical insurance. It provided nothing. It forced people to either buy very expensive insurance with huge co-pays and deductibles, or pay a penalty. It forced working people to subsidize the medial insurance costs of non-working people, i.e., more Welfare. The comparison to homeowners insurance was simply stupid because no one is forced to buy homeowners insurance. And no insurance company is compelled to insure an already burning or flooded building.

Billy won't tell you that medical and health insurance costs increased greatly after ObamaCare was enacted. And it still left almost 30 million citizens without any insurance. That was the opposite of what was promised by dishonest Democrats.

Of course, we shouldn't just vote for a politician on the basis of their support for the 2nd Amendment. That would be one-dimensional. We should vote for those that Billy and SKB the Liberal Gunsmith support... the ones that increase taxes and health care costs, support job killing regulations and insane trade deals that compel manufacturers to move jobs overseas, increase the number of Americans on Welfare and Food Stamps, kill the jobs of thousands of coal miners, waste billions spent liberating Iraq, give billions to Iran in exchange for not being able to inspect their nuke sites, give aid to a dictator who shoots missiles over Japan, promises to be more flexible with Putin after the election, etc., etc.,

And Billy is still trying to run away from his previous lies where he claimed that Corporations are colluding to keep wages low, and that wages have not increased in 20 years. Why does he refuse to offer any proof? Why does he lie to us?

Such a great song.

Another thought occurred to me.

Let's imagine for a minute that Steve is a died in the wool Democrat, happily voting for anti gun politicians despite his apparent interest in the shooting sports himself. Why wouldn't he show his disdain for Republican pro gun politicians? As a Democrat, he would likely feel they support any number of ideas he just can't get behind.

Now, given that he makes a living fixing and selling guns, you and I might think that a bit dumb. But we are all free to be dumb if we want.

So, under that scenario, should he be hiding what he thinks here? You crap on others for their deceptive and calculated efforts to subvert our thinking. Steve comes right out and says what he thinks. We don't actually need you to decipher his comments for us to show us what a closet commie he is, unlike some of the sneakier members here. Steve tells us in his own words.

You (and I) have no problem showing our disdain for Democrats. Should Steve be held to a different standard?

We seem to be making progress.

You (and I) have no problem showing our disdain for Democrats. They are anathema to what we profess on so many things besides gun rights. On that we certainly can agree. And Stevie certainly tells us, in his own words, about his disdain for Republicans... in no uncertain terms... by name... as he sometimes makes a tepid remark also blaming the other party... without naming names. Can you even think of a time when he chimed in to bash Obama, or Bill or Hillary Clinton by name as he frequently does with Trump, Reagan, Bush 41 or 43. etc.?

The difference is this... you and I don't pretend to be Liberals (or Independent Moderates) as we bash Democrats by name. I don't think either of us is stupid enough to think people wouldn't see right through such a charade.

Stevie should just come out of his Liberal Democrat closet already. He isn't fooling anyone. The one and only thing I admire about King is that he doesn't hide his Liberal Socialist beliefs. He is hardly alone in his insane assertion that you can consider yourself pro-gun even if you knowingly support anti-gunners. And the last time I checked, this was supposed to be a forum catering to gun enthusiasts. So I don't apologize for placing a certain emphasis on gun rights.

That’s a very good point.

Lots of California is nice. Most people in California are pleasant decent people. The regulatory environment is almost unbearable. If I had my way I would not to do work in CA. Everything is just an extra level of pain in the azz and it's tempting to just say "[censored] it".

Prop 65: I just ordered a new fishing raft from NRS. It's know to cause cancer in California. For some reason I'm not that worried.

Keith, you know it's possible for someone to actually be kind of in the middle, right? To agree with some positions Republicans take and some positions that Democrats take.

While in our countries the vote is typically between either two or three parties and their positions, most us have far more nuanced beliefs, not all of which line up exactly with whatever the party line is.

IMHO your us or them attitude is no better than the Antifa us or them attitude. The only difference is your positions are likely more effective in building a better society and country. But your polarization works against that objective. I'm surprised a smart guy like you doesn't see that.

Gotta go do some work now. We'll see what this evening brings.

LR, Cue the appropriate song/video now!

That's where the first liberal thinking started...

Reservations should've never been started. It was stupid to think an Indian way of life could go on with modern man encroaching on their door step.

We came and we conquered nothing to be ashamed of or apologetic about....and I'm part indian and just proud to be here.

We've had this discussion before James. After many years of thinking like you and many others that we gun owners are all in this together, I finally came to the conclusion that we do ourselves no favors by coddling and embracing back-stabbers. We spend a great deal of time, effort, and money attempting to preserve our rights and freedoms, only to have a minority of gun owners undermining us by supporting the politicians that work relentlessly to take away our guns.

If I agreed with 95% of what some Republican politicians were for, but they wanted to ban my guns, I would withhold my support for them and relentlessly pressure them to respect my Constitutional Rights. Or I would find another politician who actually respected the Constitution to vote for. I did not vote for my Republican Senator Pat Toomey in the last election, and I e-mailed him to tell him why he didn't get my vote or my support. His support for Obama's gun restrictions had gone way beyond simply choosing the lesser of two evils. I urge other gun owners to reject him too, unless he changes. I don't see many Liberal Left Democrat gun owners doing a thing to change their politician's negative prevailing attitude toward gun rights. Do you? That's why I say they are as dumb as someone who would hire a pedophile to babysit their kids, or who would bring termites into a wood framed house. And alienating them does no harm, because they are already stabbing you in the back. Who needs them?

I'm very surprised that a smart guy like you doesn't see that.

Here is the music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Mn6V1IzHw

Who needs them, you ask? You do? And every other gun owner and supporter of the 2cd.

They are, odds are, the easiest to convert to our way of thinking. But not when we shit all over them. And we need converts because demographics alone will destroy the 2cd and hunting both. Maybe not in our lifetimes Keith but a good chance in our childrens' lives.

But besides that, to what end, what benefit is gained by this polarization and hatred? It doesn't move your agenda forward. It's not Christian and hatred diminishes each of us who engage in it, even when we have good reason.

But all this is a little off my original point. Why shouldn't Steve say what he thinks. We do. Isn't that what your 1st is all about?

Awe, group hug cback. Sorry, I had to get that out of the way. Why would you characterize it as 'polarization and hatred'? Wouldn't it just be called progress, 'cept for the part about liking guns?

Here's an anecdotal tidbit that RM Bill can confirm. Within Montana, sen. tester sure as the sun rises sounds like a pro gunner, but in dc he's a hundred percent lock step antigun policy voter and supporter. No, it isn't tester's sort coming to be all he can be as a progressive lefty, but what in this world makes you think Bill 'would be the easiest to convert to our way of thinking'?

Who says anyone has to hate anyone? The more important question would be, why would one willfully allow a person that happens to shoot, blow smoke up their a..? Can you believe how much mileage Bill thinks he gets out of his corporate greed/Trump wrecked o's economy mantra? Good luck, eh, winning him over to vote in a multi issue pro liberty way?

I grinned a bit at your native North American reservation characterization. Ever drive down through Bill's MT, no eye contact, don't slow down in Browning, eh? Sure there's drug abuse on the reservations, but we probably shouldn't ignore the cover that they can provide for drug traffickers. In fairness there are some councils that're starting to kick the riffraff off of their reservations. Ask Bill, I'm sure he's aware of MT roads that're notorious illegal drug trafficking routes up to your country. There're stretches that you don't stop to help a damsel in distress, unless you want to get your head split open by three of her meth addicted 'boyfriends'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on the great state of Montana, one of my absolutely favorite places to be. I'm picking on hypocrisy.

Craig, lots in there but I’ll just respond to this one item. EVERY reservation I have been on in the northern plains states is better than EVERY reservation I’ve been on in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and northern Ontario.

Okay, I’ll add a bit more.

I’m right about demographics and our changing society. You can deny it, stick your head in the sand or hold your breath and plug your ears. Won’t make a bit of difference. Change is coming and alienating those closest to us wont help keep up the numbers. That’s just the way it is.

The reason you are losing the society game is because you aren’t playing the long game and the Left is. And you are losing for sure.

The thread was started due to the “hate” exhibited towards Californians who a simply trying to follow the laws they are saddled with. There is hate and polarization exhibited here every day.

If we are losing, it is because the Democrats have figured out that they can bribe the public with the public’s own money. Something de Tocqueville warned of 200 years ago. It seems many people do not believe in the things that have made the US exceptional: personal responsibility, individual rights, capitalism and free markets and equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. The Dems buy votes with promises of free healthcare, free college, above market wages, etc. Buy enough votes and you can ram through any policy you want. But a system based on buying votes will implode because eventually you will run out of other people’s money.

Hypocrisy, hatred, polarization: does it matter now? There's all of that for sure but you're mowing the lawn while the roof is on fire, craig. Leader of western world, cringing at a dictator's bidding in Helsinki, a country in political chaos, rule of law out the window, institutions binding a country condemned, adversaries favoured over allies, and we're going on about patriotism in Montana and California? Great nations go down when they no longer believe in themselves. Cutting out the petty nonsense here would be an improvement.

I think it's a country in media chaos.

Sorry James, but no, we don't need them... the supporters of anti-gunners in our midst. They are no good for us or the preservation of 2nd Amendment Rights. And you cannot show me even one here that you have converted to our way of thinking. They will not help to thwart the destruction of the 2nd Amendment... they are willing participants in it.

So what benefit is gained by my thought that we should reject and marginalize them? That's easy too. By accepting and embracing them, we are teaching them that there are no repercussions to stabbing the majority of gun owners in the backs. You are telling them that their back-stabbing is somehow acceptable because they own, or claim to own and shoot a few guns. We should not be permitting them to get away with electing and supporting those anti-gunners who threaten your rights, and those of your children and grandchildren. Let them go... reject them. They can't do any more damage than they already are by undermining us.

And I never said that Lefty Stevie SKB shouldn't say what he thinks. In fact, I think he should say it all like King instead of pretending that he is Conservative or Independent Moderate. After all, it should be obvious to you that he spends an inordinate amount of time denigrating and criticizing Republicans, while tossing a few soft balls toward his favored Liberal Democrats in order to try to hide his true attitudes. I think he should just come out of his closet already.

Keith, see ya in 60 years and you can tell me then how well it’s worked out for gun owners.

You attack Steve with some pretence like he’s being disengeneous and you give a pass to an ignoramus like jOe.

I guess the problem is I’m not a fanatic. There is no one single issue that, if you’re on my side, means I’ll support you no matter how big a dick you are. And if you are on the other side, no matter how many other aspects of life we have in common, I’ll hate you.

We shall continue to disagree on what’s best for our cause.

jOe isn't stabbing you in the back like SKB is James. jOe isn't frequently popping up to bash pro-gun republicans like Steve does. I believe Steve is indeed being disingenuous, and he has given us abundant proof of that. I'd just like to see him be honest with us and come out of his closet. And like it or not, jOe really is one of those gun owners who you say we need to have on our side and not be polarized against them.

It sure doesn't sound as though you are a not fanatic when it comes to hating jOe. I'd say that calling him an ignoramus rises to the level of shitting on a fellow hunter, shooter, and gun owner in a fanatical manner... something you keep lecturing me about.

With the changing demographics you are concerned about, how can you justify rejecting jOe and embracing guys like King and SKB who obviously support Liberal left anti-gunners? Why is it OK for you to shit on jOe, and bad for me to dump on Liberal Left back-stabbers?

I don't need to call you in 60 years to tell you that embracing the Liberal left Democrat gun owners who undermine our efforts to preserve gun rights is not working. The anti-gun politicians and organizations themselves are as proud as peacocks about that, and they are happy to report and exaggerate the number of gun owners who they claim support more gun restrictions on law abiding citizens.

But maybe you'll prove me wrong in the end. Who knows...maybe you'll change King. And maybe pigs will fly too.

That's what canooks do...they think they are smarter than everyone else.

Truth iz I never ran into a canook that wasn't so full of himself that he couldn't realize how really stupid he was.

Truth is we should've whipped their azzes years ago and put them on Artic reservations.

Boy somebody sure got their panties in a wad when I correctly pointed out it was Reagan's Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981 that removed most funding and forced States to release the mentally challenged. Any care to dispute the fact? Nah...

Hey I did learn something yesterday. The new propaganda term for the disaster that was the Iraq War is now "the liberation of Iraq". I am still laughing over that one.


Go team, Go.....

No you are right....jOe doesn’t pop up frequently just to bash pro gun Republicans.....he pops up frequently to bash everyone, including most on this site.

Good try Keith but jOe has 12,000 or so posts here and the vast majority are evidence of what kind of man he is.

IMHO, I dislike jOe for good reason.....he’s a dislikeable fellow. He’s a busy body on the for sale section and he reeks of negativity with every comment over here.

I don’t dislike him for his politics.

The difference, I suppose, is that I don’t, on a regular basis, respond to every post jOe makes by calling him out for being a dick. I usually let his inanities slide. So I can have my opinion, be prepared to defend or confirm it on occasion, jOe knows what I think, but I’m not getting triggered by him every time he posts. And I’m not subjecting everyone else to a recitation of a bunch of bullshit between jOe and I that they already know about.

Eh O'sckolerly cAnooker...

I sit back and sometimes read your crap

You really think you are e'jew'makatin the world wit yer Canadian hOrse hockey.

No body pays any attention to the Canadian crap you type about American politics.

You in yer bud Kangfisher need to worry about that F'd up country of yours...that no one gives a shAt bout.

Including yOu.

Hey cback, tell King if my roof is on fire, well we're just gonna have to put it out and get back to the rest of life.

I'm at a loss here. When did I ever say that demographics are not changing? Don't we all know that dems of the past would have little use for most of today's Republicans, because they're too far left?

Just to be clear, are we thinking that the long game for conservative leaning folks involves occasionally voting for a dem? If not, this is meaningless chit chat, right? For me, I'm not thinking about approaching political differences from a position of hate, but boy oh boy, if we repeat it often enough, it must be true.

I see interesting 'media' pieces in recent days. President Trump was visiting, go figure, Billings Montana last night. The large venue was packed, but the crowd was well versed on and responsive to the issues. Contrast with that with the 'protesters' outside of the Judge Kavanaugh hearings, the knuckleheads have no idea why they're there, what their signs say, let alone who is leading them to believe in a handful of talking point catch phrases. And, your long game involves reaching out to these folks? Of course not, maybe, but RM Bill mentioned he's not concerned in the least bit about the progressive billionaire bank rollers of these 'spontaneous protests'. Try working with them, eh, are they gonna fund a spontaneous pro 2nd rally with dupes that actually have their brain hooked up?

Yup, the media's broken. Most of King's colleagues this morning are raving about dem booker invoking race and risking his entire career to shed light on his so called secret documents. Of course, he failed to mention that he made an impossible request to declassify the papers just the night before, and his forgettable ploy was accommodated at the speed of bureaucratic light. Here's the future of the dems, part of our long game, eh? Wouldn't you think it's a great thing that the good citizens at the Billings rally have half the sense to see past all the 'hate and polarization'?

Back to kali, I'll repeat like a broken record. It takes about 270 electoral votes to elect a US President. Without counting a single popular vote, as soon as the polls close, most media spots the dem to a 55 vote lead, 20% of the way without breaking a sweat. Is part of our long game to pat them on the back, and convince them to drop their all or none electoral vote allocation? If you can do it, I'll show the love for that state again, eh?

No, but it may mean changing either or both of our strategies and tactics and taking a long term view.

Are you suggesting there isn't polarization now between the Dems and the Republicans? Are you suggesting many people don't judge others simply by their expectation of who they are voting for?

Good for Trump and good for the people in Billings. Trump's a start. Trump is a disruptor. We need disruptors.

My long term game involves things like working towards evolving the culture of the teachers colleges so they aren't turning out Marxist foot soldiers who brainwash millions of kids every day that the Left view is the only view. My long term game involves blowing up the culture of journalism schools so they are turning out something other than died in the wool socialists.

And your last paragraph simply reinforces my contention that demographics and liberals have mostly been winning throughout my 60 years.

Hating doesn't get us anywhere. Existing in an echo chamber, as Keith would have us do here, doesn't get us anywhere. This thread was started because someone was objecting to being categorized with the corrupt socialists who run California from their strongholds in the LA and SF areas. I think he's right to object. He, and others like him, deserve our support, not our disdain.

Now I'm off to the gunsmith to pick up a couple guns. Yippee!!

Yes, craig, together the US will put the fire out and a lot of Republican firemen now are on the scene with bigger hoses than Democrats.

Joe, US invaded Canada and burned Toronto. With help of your and our fierce Iroquois, we pushed US back and burned Washington.

King, those events took place over 200 years ago. They are no longer germane and haven't been in your lifetime.

So yer saying....we owe them cAnookers one.

Interesting that's your take jOe, seeing as the last couple pages of this particular thread have been largely taken up by a conversation between Craig, Keith and me. At the very least, those two intelligent members have some interest in what I have to say. They seem to be paying attention. Did you miss those posts?

You must be one of them a Fwench cAnookers because eye always see a lot of wee weez in your posts.

Next time you try and ea'jew'makat us on American politics remember just because you're on the same planet as wee...you ain't a wee.

Wee wee Miss'sure.

jOe, before we were Canadians, we were Americans....for 140 years. And we have been in Canada for over 200 years. Can you do the math?

I am completely at ease commenting on American politics. It's something I have a vested interest in and I actually pay attention to it and American society. You should try learning, jOe, you might be surprised at what you find out. And BTW, your attempts at posting zingers typically fail miserably.

A lot of them cAnookers were draft dodgers that jumped the border during the Vietnam war....

Your fervent posts about American politics makes one wonder is this cAnooker feeling home sick for his country.

Hmmm, aren't we a hundred and ten percent sure there IS polarization? And, I don't understand this. What is in any way wrong with making a judgement about someone who either states who they vote for or implies who they vote for? Isn't how we use that judgement? I believe a long term ground game will be simpler if we don't have to pretend that we're above the fray. Why else would we be harping on hate, if the perceived mob didn't rule? In my previous comment, I gave examples of tactics. Can you come up with reasons not to selectively apply the tactics of the left? Selective meaning, half a booker or warren or hill or barry or pelosi or ocasio or harris, geez there a post length limit.

You may have gathered from the past that education is one of my pet watches on the national scene. I think if you wait for college, you're waaay too late. We'll see. I haven't noticed the dept. of ed. move the needle in a meaningful way to me, but a conservative long game will have absolutely zero chance of influencing formative years under an ideological dem progressive dept. of ed. Hey, what about alternatives? How we gonna get King to stop trashing the thousands upon thousands of kids, of all stripes, who have gotten a wonderful introduction to firearms through the various NRA youth programs, by distilling their body of work down to a couple of misleading sound bites?

If you want to grab today's kids attention, it probably should be a very short message and pop up on their phone. Thank goodness we have someone with the cajones to raise awareness of how info is controlled.

jOe, I both like and admire America immensely. And if it ever made sense for my life, I'd move in an instant. I could happily live in either Canada or the USA.

Yup! Total agreement.

Maybe but that is not my approach. A young man 16 years old joined me and his father on his first Grouse hunt last weekend. The two of them will be staying at my house this weekend and hunting our public lands with muzzleloaders for big game, his first big game hunt. When I showed this young man my Lancaster built percussion rifle built in the 1860's he was amazed by the condition of gun and asked intelligent questions about the rifle. Last week his father asked me if the boy could shadow me for day in the gun shop. He does very well in school and has an interest in both engineering and gunsmithing. This whole view that the youth of today is lost cause is both sad and mistaken. I will also be introducing my 14 year old nephew to hunting big game this year.

Craig, It sounds as if you've wasted far too much time with Alex Jones. Every policy or position you oppose is a hoax or a scam. Evil forces are relentlessly at work in every dark corner. No idea from another perspective should ever be considered. CB, I appreciate your patience and willingness to take a broader view. However, I have to question your devotion to the business ethos. Of course we all benefit from those who found and run enterprises, but as Obama pointed out, they didn't make that all by themselves. Everybody's work contributes to what each of us is capable of making. Thomas Jefferson made amazing achievements, but it was partly because he owned a lot of slaves who made it possible for him to focus on issues other than those of day-to-day. PS: A frequent comment here says Democrats buy votes by programs that reward their voters. Isn't that what politicians do? What is Trump's disastrous tax cut but a reward to his wealthy handlers? There's lots of blather here about honesty, and CB and SKB are among the few who demonstrate it in their willingness to acknowledge that issues can have more than one side.

Bill were you at the Trump rally yesterday ?

Yes, I stood in the street and yelled,"Lock him up." Just kidding.

An observation: A lot of the nostalgia and the animosity it feeds that gets paraded here is badly misplaced. When the world changes in ways we don't like, it's easy but dishonest to scapegoat those who don't look like or vote like we do. There's a great longing here to be able to live as if we were on the frontier. If you're the only one in a hundred square miles, it really makes no difference how fast you drive, where you shoot or what you shoot at, how much game you harvest. The frontier is over. When I was a kid, I bought a 22 rifle on the playground of the elementary school. I could walk from my house in town to a good place to hunt. No more. It's not impossible now because some liberal Democrats have passed laws. It's impossible because we all have a great many more neighbors now. Now we have to have speed limits and stop signs. By appropriating so much of the planet to our exclusive benefit, we've painted ourselves into a corner. We could be more free to do whatever we pleased it there just weren't so many of us. We need to become conservatives and start conserving a sustainable world instead of consuming it as fast and completely as possible. The refusal to recognize and accept limits is folly and inevitably leads, as the Greeks told us, to tragedy.

Euthanasia Billy... assisted suicide... extremely late term abortion... Don't just talk about it...do it! Snuff yourself as a shining example, and proof that you take what you say seriously!

Make the world a better place for all of us!

As Mark Twain reminds us, "There's nothing to be learned from the second kick of a mule." The mule will keep kicking us until we learn or die.

Bill, while I certainly appreciated Mark Twain's take, Will Roger's was not far off either.




Seems some of us have such tender feelings. Kind of ironic on gun board composed of men. Must be that whole metro-sexual thing is catching on.

Would someone please tell us from your personal experience which is worse: to be kicked by a mule or to pee on an electric fence? There must be several here who have suffered both.

James, it looks to me as if you and jOe are engaged in a feud, and as a result of your personal dislike for him, you are going to suspend the ground rules that you seem to think I should follow.

You and jOe don't like or respect each other, but I wouldn't wish to see either of you leave this forum.

Same goes for Ted and jOe. I could easily think of several more clashing personalities here. And I'm here to tell you that I don't intend to get in the middle of your feuds or play peace-maker or referee. You're all big boys who are capable of handling your own battles. I tried to get some combatants to make peace in the past here, and it never went well. In my opinion, based upon my observations here, you are all bonafide gun guys. Bonafide... sincere... genuine... the real deal.

None of you are surreptitiously undermining the 2nd Amendment and deceptively stabbing us in the back as you pretend to be something else. That's my litmus test. I don't like anti-gunners. And I really don't like anti-gunners who pretend to be on our side. I read, with deep interest, SKB's post above about possibly mentoring a 16 year old in his gun shop, and his intention to introduce his 14 year old nephew to big game hunting.

I couldn't help thinking that he will probably also be brain-washing them about the evils of various pro-gun Republicans, and sharing his obvious support for those Liberal Democrats who wish to infringe upon our rights to own guns and hunt. Here's another example of the honesty and integrity of your boy Lefty Stevie. Here's another shining example of why I don't trust what he says, but instead advise people to pay attention to what he does. Here's how he IGNORES my posts:



That's why I respond to him. I know you can't trust his word. He only pretends to IGNORE me out of an inability to refute what I say about him. When Lefty Stevie tells those kids about the "liberation of Iraq" and all the mistakes that were made, do you think he'll even mention that the biggest mistake was when his hero Obama snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by handing all the gains and sacrifices made by our military over to ISIS and Al Qaeda, even leaving behind billions of dollars worth of equipment and military hardware?

Or do you think he'll mention how many Liberal Democrats had the power since 1981 to restore funding to take care of mentally ill folks like him and rocky mtn bill?

EDIT: Hell, I just checked, and Lefty Stevie SKB... the guy who repeatedly says he IGNORES my posts... is busy reading this one right now! Libtards like him are truly the gift that keeps on giving.

Some might think it’s important to look at it from a frontiersman’s point of view. I’m not kidding when I say that from my point of view, I’d want to know if the mule is invoking some minority status, and that fence will get peed on if it’s accused of being straight. Where’s my buckskins, I should be heading back up in the mountains, eh?

Sorry, I’m not CB here, but give him a little courtesy of some context. You guy lil’o said the gov. created all.

Bill, or should I say Mr. open minded, there’re always more than one side to any issue, eh? Why do I feel like I just warmed the world twenty something degrees by pecking out this note on my King’s ranch diesel phone.

Nowadays the mule isn't kicking some frontiersman. He's kicking some leather-headed Babbit who hasn't figured out there is no frontier. Until we agree that the frontier has passed, he's really kicking all of us. We all obey nature's laws -- sooner or later. To be a survivor requires the sooner option. Despite its kookiness, California is trying to be on the sooner side. There is an objective reality. There are no alternative facts. As Wonko says, I can explain it for you, but.....

Well if you aren't going to follow your own advice and euthanize yourself to save the planet Billy, you should at least move to California with Dr. Wanker.

They appreciate snowflakes and Libtards like you there. Take King and Lefty Stevie with you. You can start a mutual admiration society and call yourselves the Circle Jerks. If you find an unsoiled public park to poop in, you can consider it a new frontier to conquer.

I simply dislike jOe because he is a fountain of negativity. No matter who posts on what subject, jOe makes an effort to put the knife in and twist it a bit. Who needs that every day? The fact that his comments are littered with racist, homophobic and other generally slanderous invective and epithets just makes it even more annoying. I don't spend time with people like that in regular life and I don't like them infecting this site.

But I'll make this point, it's not jOe's views that bother me, it's his own behavior.

It's the individual, not his philosophy.

Bill, like some others, I'll just make the point that on the subject of business Obama knew and knows less than nothing. Never created anything, never got paid for something that the funds didn't come, one way or another, from the government.

He is the LAST guy I would go to to learn a little about how industry works.

CB, jOe's behavior stems from his views. He is his philosophy. With jOe, if it's not one damned thing after another, it's the same damned thing over and over.

Me, I'm just happy to be here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfBwMLext8



Love you guys.

SKB, amen.

I was born in the San Joaquin Valley just over 62 years ago. My parents bought a house in San Jose for 15,000 in 1957, taking me and my two older siblings there from the Central Valley. There were whispers many decades later that living with my paternal grandfather was no longer possible, my mother insistent on getting my sister away from "that wicked old man." They would have two more boys there, and the four boys shared one bedroom, as the only girl had to have her own room. 5 kids shared one bathroom. The house payment was 144/month. Dad was an alcoholic and philanderer, working as a self-taught electrical engineer with Pacific Telephone, having started by climbing poles. It was a real struggle for him to afford the sturdy lineman boots he needed, that seemed to wear out all too quickly. We got new clothes once a year, at the start of school. We got a few at Christmas from my maternal grandmother, though of course we boys viewed it as a great letdown to get clothes for Christmas. I did get a shiny red bike that I asked for one year, and had to stand on the brick planter to get on. Dad always found a way for a regular family vacation when we were young, usually involving water skiing at one of the many reservoirs with camping facilities.

With all the bad, there was so much good. I loved where I grew up- the climate, topography, plentiful work, and the prettiest girls in the world. With three brothers we always had an instant sports team of some flavor. I walked to elementary school through the orchards that became Silicon Valley. I went to a great church that was located within walking distance of where Netflix is now located.

I hadn't been home in a few years (it will always be home, and I will always be a native Californian. I still correct people who call me a Texan, though I love this state and its independent streak), but last summer I flew back on my birthday to spend time with my younger brother. We drove around to all the old haunts, and stepping outside on to the hotel balcony, catching a whiff of Gilroy garlic in the air brought on a torrent of memories that caught me off guard, and shook me to my soul. It was the smell of, home. Many of you know what smells can mean and do to memory.

It was so good to be home, and the land/air/ sea and golden light are the same. I was shocked at the shanty towns and tents- encampments on the side of the highway and the sidewalks of businesses that sported tall chain link fences topped with razor wire.

We went to the small reservoir in the foothills of the Santa Cruz mountains at my request, as I wanted my brother to check the actual distance from the house to the dam, a ride I took many weekends with an old Rawlings baseball glove resting securely at the base of butterfly handlebars, a pump action Daisy bb gun lying in my lap. A small creek runs hand in glove with the narrow blacktop that leads to the dam, and at the beginning of the climb I noticed some children walking in the creek. They were not playing. Without saying a word I turned my gaze from them to my brother. "Homeless family. Been there a couple years."

I thoroughly enjoyed the time with my brother, and viewing through older eyes many of the places that shaped my life. I left in 1985 for good, and have no desire to leave my adopted state. But to the point of the OP, there are many there who choose to stay and fight, and if we are inclined to support them, so be it. They may be polishing the brass on the Titanic, but perhaps the nobility lies not in the futility of the effort, but in the ship of state itself they see worth trying to save, even as she appears to be slipping beneath the waves.

Mike

What a great board, I learn something every day. Thanks Bill.

The whole thread has been worth the effort to get this. Thank you Mike. Beautifully written. I grew up in southern Manitoba and you could hardly find a more different place. But your writing brought me back.

Mike, beautifully written and perfectly encapsulated the conflict between Dorothy's and Thomas Wolfe's thoughts of home. Gil