I have been looking for a Hunter Arms Co. .410 double to shoot at our events and finally came across a Fulton Hunter Special .410 Gun is in very nice condition, with 26" barrels (all 295 Hunter Specials had 26' barrels). I measured choke constriction with a small hole gage and then miked it, the right was .397 or .013 constriction. The left was .380 or .030 constriction. I made a plug gage from aluminium .4086 to check diameter of bore. It went in with a little drag so I'm guessing bore is .410. Everything I tried to find on choke constriction for .410 listed .022 as full.
I know I am going to have to pattern this and what is a good distance, I've read 30 yards. I know it is usually 40 yards at a 30" circle but for a .410 everything seems different.

I know that all L.C. Smiths were patterned at the factory and on the hang tag gave the choke constriction, but I do not know if the Fultons were patterned, I would think they would be but can't say for sure.

I use .002 for skeet, super pattern at 22 yards.

bill

I had a late uncle who shot .410 at thousands of quail. Left barrel was choked at .030. He used a 3” shell in that barrel and used it on only long range birds. Funny thing is that I clearly remember him a asking a pair with his second barrels several times. I patterned it and found any shell over 1100 FPS had poor patterns but s 3” shell moving at 1100 FPS had decent patterns at 25 yards.

This gun is chambered for 3" but for right now I am reloading 2 1/2" at 1200 fps and another at 1220 fps. I will try both 30 yards and 25 yards to see what it does.

I have a new FAIR Iside Tartaruga Gold .410 that came with five screw in choke tubes. Both bores measure .409". I have not had the chance to pattern them yet, but the constrictions measure:

C - -.006"
IC - +.003"
M - +.012"
IM - +.023"
F - +.034"

It will be very interesting to see what they show on the plate.

My Dickinson has tight bores at .399" and .398" with fixed chokes that are ..008" and .008". They have worked very well for me on doves and quail for three years running.

My Yildiz has fixed chokes and bores that measure .400" and .399", and chokes are .011" R and .015" L. It works great on dove and quail, too.

The Verona O/U is bored .410" and .410" and is choked .004" bottom and .011" top. It has worked fine on doves, but never used it on quail.

All pattern well, so the jury is still out for me on what suits me best. Sorry I cannot be much help at this point, but I'm having fun figuring it all out, and killing lots of birds in the process.

SRH

My tightest skeet choke .410-bore is my pre-war Model 42 with .006". Other skeet .410-bore barrels I have are .002" (2), .004" (2) and .005". My .410-bore spade for my bore mic won't go in the full choke barrel of my Winchester Model 23 Classic, but I finally ran into one that would and that choke is .028". The Ithaca Gun Co. Standard Bore, Chamber & Choke for Shotguns drawing and tables gives .020" for a .410-bore full choke, but my NID has .024".

Traditional .410 pattern distance was 25 yds per O'Connor, anyway. Somewhere in his writings he said that's what the folks at WW-Olin told him. That was before shotcups.

Your 0.013" bbl is about like my repro's 0.014" ("IM") Briley tube. Kinda strong for a skeet field. I use it for SC. A centered 30 yd midi or battue kinda dissolves with #9s or #8.5s. Most any 2.5" best quality domestic shell in #9 or #8.5 can make a case for 30 yd patterning, in accord with what you've read. IME, Win 3" #7.5s would merit 25 yd testing. I'd wager the 3" RP equivalent will be a 30 yd shell through your 0.013.

Dunno what to make of the the 0.030". My Win .410 "full" bbls run from 0.016" to 0.020". But I can't call them legit 35+ yd barrels. One exception is the RP 3" #6. Through a "full" 42 I get a % in the high 60s at 40 yds. In fact all the pellets fall within about 20-22". There is no "outer ring". Not quite sure what to do with it, though. Don't figure on taking 40 yd pokes at ditch parrots with it. Probably great for road-wrenching grouse.

While you're patterning it check the barrels for regulation, David. It's just something you cannot assume is right. Most vintage guns are, but not all. The .410's regulation is affected more by how tightly/loosely you hold the gun, than are bigger and heavier bores.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I do mine!

SRH

Thanks to all, I just didn't know what to expect with those readings after seeing what some one had posted that .005 was considered modified from the same article that Samuel posted about what O'Conner wrote.

Full Choke, .410, .396, .014, 70 percent of shot in a 25” circle at 30 yards.
Modified, .410, .405, .005, 60
Imp. Cyl., .410, .408, .002, 50
Cylinder, .410, .410, None, 40

This is what I copied that someone had posted on another site.

I will have to see how they pattern myself. Have plenty of choices for 2 1/2".

The "Old" 12 gauge standard for full choke was a 10% to 11% reduction in bore area for the choke. This gave a constriction of from .038" to .041".
This same % of reduction in the .410 would give constrictions of from .021" to .023".

Miller, very interesting. Do you have the % for the other chokes, IC, MOD, IMP MOD.? Also how long ago did someone figure this percentage, was it patterned like we would do it now?

I understand the percentage thing for different bores, but where was this "Old 12 gauge standard" devised, or originally decided/deduced? It's interesting, and I don't dispute it, but I've never seen it written before, that I can recall.

SRH

I have never heard it expressed as a percentage of bore diameter but I certainly have heard of .040" being the old standard for full choke in a 12 bore. The Brits often expressed choke as 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 with each 1/4 being .010" of constriction.

I had a sxs Ugartechea that had .021 chokes. It was pretty tight patterning. One gun I have has been altered to cylinder bore on the right barrel, so I relieved the forcing cones to about 3" cones and polished them. The gun shoots more evenly dispersed patterns than any other 410 I own. This bore actually holds together for some decently long shots. It's my favorite quail gun. One gun I have with standard cones and full chokes has excessively hot cores in the patterns. My recollection is that Briley calls .020" a full choke in 410. I have one 410 gun that has a .035 choke. It patterns ok.

Thanks Chuck, the more you ask about choke constriction for .410's the more answers you get. Now with yours I have seen .022 to .035. The pattern board will tell. I think I will start at 30 yards at a 30" circle with a 25" circle and a 16" circle inside of that, and then go to 25 yards with the same configuration and see.

Sport with Gun and Rod in American Woods and Waters by Alfred Marshall Mayer, 1883
https://books.google.com/books?id=IJcCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA781&vq
The choke-bore now almost universally adopted by gunmakers is as follows: Taking a twelve-gauge gun as an example, the construction of the bore from the front of the breech-chamber to within one and a half inch of the muzzle amounts to about 1/100 of an inch. At one and a half inch from the muzzle begins a sharp contraction which, in the length of one inch, equals 25/1000 of an inch. The last half inch of the bore is a true cylinder.

.010 + .025 = .035" constriction = 5% for "choke bore"

.410" X .05 = .0205"


The Gun and Its Development by W.W. Greener, 1907
http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA416
The various degrees of choking may be classified as:
Full-choke, which, with a 12-gauge gun, standard load, distance and conditions will make an average pattern of 215 pellets
The half-choke (same conditions) ... 185
The quarter-choke... 160
The improved cylinder... 140
The old cylinder…115
Any better average shooting than 215 may be termed an extra full-choke; the improved cylinder is a barrel very slightly choked.

Unfortunately, Greener doesn't define his "standard load". If it was 1 1/8 oz. No. 7 Tatham chilled shot (291 per oz.), then 1 1/8 oz. = 215/327 = 66% for Full-choke
On p. 354 he states 1 1/8 oz. No. 6 is 305 pellets. 215/305 = 70%
https://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA354

Thanks Brother Drew.

I don't really know where I got the percentage thing, I think I just devised it working from stated as well as measured diameters of chokes in various gauges.

It could be a bit easier to say % of choke area in relation to bore area. Let B = bore diameter, C = choke diameter & R = % of reduction. The formula then is
C = √(B² x R) Thus for the 12 gauge √ of (.729² x 90%) = .692 or .37" of choke constriction.
For the .410 bore √ (.410² x 90%) = .389" or .21" of choke constriction.
These would be essentially full chokes.

David,
In my opinion, 30" is way too large a k8lling pattern to expect. An 18-20" killing pattern is realistic.

I fully agree. You have to keep remembering density. Density is what kills. Density is what gives multiple hits, contributing to the all important factor of pellets hitting vitals. Density with a .410 pattern means a smaller overall diameter.

SRH

A .410 payload is limited. Even a 3" shell packs 11/16 or in some cases 3/4 ounce of pellets. I think 25 yards is a much more particle distance to pattern a .410 if you are looking at hunting patterns. I have shot a lot of small birds at greater distance but restrict myself to 20-25 yards max on medium size released chukar and pheasant. None wild where I live so they are all pen raised.

30", 24" or 16" patterns are all relative to distance and payload. As to size of pattern it comes down to how big is the density of the pattern, which will humanly kill a bird. A clay target may or may not break with a single hit but live birds almost never die from a single pellet strike. There is always the chance of a golden bb but to rely on such a slime chance is not a sound practice. And risking wounding a bird is not what any of us want.

So I look at 16" patterns as the main point of interest with the extra 3-4" all around as a limited bonus area. So call it 16-24" pattern but much great weight placed on the 16" portion. And don't get wrapped up into percentage like many do. It is evenness of pattern and size of the killing zone which matters. I don't care if the numbers are 50%, 60% or 70%. I want to know if I have a 12", 16", 18" or a 20" effective pattern. To get a real feel for what you have you need to shoot a lot of patterns. But since you are not going to count every little pellet hole that is not that big of a deal. Again it is size not numbers which I care about.

Good points. Shooting lots of patterns is where many folks have a hang up. You can do it on paper, but it's very tedious, at least to me. Invest $150 bucks, much less if you can scrounge the steel, build yourself a 4' X 4' steel pattern plate, and take pics with the cell phone of any patterns you want to save. Probably the most useful shotgunning project I've done since I began reloading.

SRH

Agree on use of a smaller circle. Regardless of choke or distance I've never seen more than 22" of effective pattern diameter using any 3" shell in #7.5 or larger. Actual effective pattern diameter also depends on species. Always used coffee can (the old metal ones!) diam circles for phez, soda cans for grouse, dixie cups for WC. I think a 20" paper would do it. As stated, effective pattern is far more important than pattern percentage/nominal choke.

Also agree 25 yds makes most sense for 2.5" or 3", in the field shot sizes. Best quality 2.5" target loads in #9 and #8.5 can make use of 30 yds through some constrictions.

Some really good advice, and thanks to all.
I have paper that is 30" wide so that is why I stated 30". I will make some targets with 16" and 24" circles and pattern them at 25 yards. If the rain ever stops I will try them and post back here. Thanks again to all.

Shouldn't complain about the rain as the people in the Carolina's and parts of Virginia are still experiencing flooding. God Bless them and my prayers are with them.

You are better off just putting an aim spot on the paper. Then take a price of cardboard and cut out a circle of the size say 16 or 24” and hold it over the pattern. You never center you pattern, in the perfect middle of the paper. This way you get the information you need more precisely by adjusting your cutout over the real pattern. Use a couple pieces of duct tape to hold the cutout in place and step back a few feet to gain perspective. A phone photo gives you a lasting record for later review. Write down shell information along with gun, barrel and date for your records. Patterns loose their information value if you can’t tell one from another later.

I’ve used paper, cardboard and a pattern plate like Stan was referring to earlier. Each works well but wind does not bother the plate at all where it does make changing paper a challenge sometimes. And you can shoot a lot of patterns quickly if all you have to do is reapply your paint surface. But use what you’ve got. Just patterning you gun puts you ahead of 90% of shooters who never do it at all. Just like people who check powder drops with scales are a small percentage of reloaders in shotshells.

Thanks Jon for the information. I will do that instead of drawing circles. Your way makes more sense. I remember reading a long time ago that shooting at any patterning device, circle the area with the most pellets at a given range so long as the pattern was not too far from POI.

When I photograph patterns I prop a small card above the plate with a reference number on it. I record the number on a master sheet with all the pertinent information. Then I transfer the photos to my computer for future reference, and to be able to look at a pattern much enlarged on my monitor.

For example, this is a 3/4 oz. load out the right barrel of my .410 Dickinson at 25 yds.



SRH

I love shooting .410s. Two things to never do with a .410, never open a shell and see how few pellets of 7 1/2 or larger shot are in a 1/2 ounce load. Looking at them you get the feeling so few pellets can never kill a bird. Second is to not freak out about the pattern. Either size, or lack of size, or the holes you see. Every shell will have some flaw in the pattern and if you worry about them you will become hyper perfect in aiming you shot which never works with a .410.

I killed two Dove this year at ridiculous ranges with my .410, without any extreme effort. Smooth swing and shot. Both birds had been slightly hit by other shooters and would have almost certainly flown off to die. We’ve all seen it happen too often. A wasted death. If I had thought about it I either would have concluded the chances were very low or worse I would have tried to be exacting in my shot which with a .410 is a sure miss for me. A .410 can kill a bird at distance, just like a 12 but everything has to come together perfectly. After all shot does not care what size the bore was. 1150-1200 FPS is just as good from a 12 down to a .410. You just don’t get much room for error.

I kill squirrels fairly reliably out to 30-35yd with a Chiappa .22/.410 combination.

I load Winchester HS 3" hulls with #6 plated shot and H-110 for this purpose. I think the plated shot is extremely important to help keep the shot round and prevent fliers, which IMO are an even bigger problem with the 3" "magnums".

I really like #4 for squirrels in the larger gauges, but with the .410 I think it makes the patterns too sparse at longer ranges, hence the #6. (Again, I've just shot printer paper with a scale picture of a squirrel on it, not proper patterning boards. :P )

The gun shoots very tightly, which I appreciate (and is surprisingly well regulated for a cheap gun). I don't have a proper bore gauge to measure the bore and choke with, but it puts most all the shot into about 10" at 25yd (this just shooting at an 8.5x11 sheet of paper to check the regulation when I bought it). Shoots like a turkey choke.

Anyway, that load out of that gun really smacks the snot out of the squirrels, even at the tops of the tallest trees. I am rather fond of that little gun, even though it's pretty crappy.

I don't try to shoot flying animals with it, though. I'm not good enough to want to shoot a .410 at anything airborne other than clays.

I have to ask.

How perfect can a half ounce .410 pattern be?
If the pellets are evenly spread 2” apart, how big can it be expanded to as a max area pattern?

Stan that is some pattern, nothing but a housefly might get through it.

Say there are 410 number 8s in an ounce, so there would be 205 in a 1/2 ounce load. If you "placed" one into every 2 square inches you would need 410 square inches to accommodate the load. That is a 22.85" diameter circle, if I understood the question correctly.

SRH

It's pretty decent, David, especially for .008" choke. It's the WW 3/4 oz. factory load of 8 1/2s. I'm working on a load that I hope will be even better, or, put another way, be at least that good at longer range. It contains very, very close to 3/4 oz. of true nickel plated 8s. There won't be quite as many 8s in the load as 8 1/2s in the other one, but if there are less fliers it might equal it in density, and the 8s will give a bit more energy at longer range.

Ain't it all fun? SRH