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Posted By: BrentD, Prof Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 04:45 PM
I have a friend that was given a 20 gauge shotgun with 2.75 chambers that he believes is Turkish but looks to be German to me. I haven't seen much other than these pictures however. Can anyone tell me anything about it?

He says one barrel is marked O and the other OO, and he wonders if this refers to chokes somehow. They are also stamped 15.6 and 15.8 mm, which I presume is probably bore diameters, but I don't see any markings that relate to chokes.

He said it seems well made and handles well. I'm just wondering what it is and whether it is worth very much in pretty close to new condition. I'm imagining it is somewhat the equivalent of an Ithaca/SKB 100.




Posted By: King Brown Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 05:49 PM
Just from the look of it, I have reservations of it being near SKB 100 quality.
Posted By: skeettx Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 06:12 PM
German proof
20 gauge 3 inch chambers

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=278896&p=2387606

Link says the German word "Vertriebsgesellschaft" translates to "Distributor".

Maybe this is an earl Huglu gun

Mike
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 06:32 PM
Mike is correct
https://www.gunwatch.co.uk/guns/12169-huglu-conquest-20-for-sale

Maybe it's a 16g; bore .662"?
16 mm = .630" = .032" = Light full
15.8 mm = .622" = .040 = XF

20g is .615"
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 06:51 PM
Thanks guys. It is stamped "20 70" in several places. From that I deduce it is 2.75" 20 gauge.

Posted By: Der Ami Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 07:45 PM
Brent,
It is stamped 20-76( 3") on the barrels. If he wants to be sure, he can measure the chambers.
Mike
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 07:51 PM
I think that 76 is actually a 70 that slipped and double struck. I've looked at that photo a lot and wondered about that. I don't think that is a "6"
Posted By: skeettx Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 08:54 PM
Good, OK yes 70 and not 76, hmmmmm
Mike
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 09:37 PM
Some of the cheap O/U's that have those cast receivers were made in Brazil.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/02/18 10:29 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
I'm imagining it is somewhat the equivalent of an Ithaca/SKB 100.



You have a wild imagination.

It's nothing close to an Ithaca/SKB 100...

I'm "imagining" $150 bucks tops.
Posted By: fallschirmjaeger Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 12:22 AM
That low level of quality was surely not produced in Germany...

Brent did you end up purchasing that Belgian?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 01:19 AM
jOey, your money is no good with me. Your $150 of play money wouldn't by a single worn out sock.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 01:48 AM
Originally Posted By: fallschirmjaeger
That low level of quality was surely not produced in Germany...


Apparently, it may not be quite so bad as you think. It needed some work but he has is actually quite pleased with it now. Keeping in mind that he has $0 invested in it.


Quote:
Brent did you end up purchasing that Belgian?

Ah, actually....... NO. And that is a very sore point for me. So, by way of trying to achieve some level of cathartic relief, I'll not spare you the long story as I continue to rue putting it back on the rack and walking away.

The gun was at the Omaha Cabelas. Cabelas is truly tanking as someone here noted. I was, in the course of my trip to Wyoming for a legendary mule deer buck, in both the Sydney and the Omaha stores, and it is grim. Very grim.

Anyway, I hunted with a friend who is a prof at UNL in Lincoln. On Wednesday of last week, we returned to his place where an undergrad had been baby sitting his dogs. We bought her dinner swapped stories. She turned out to be quite enthusiastic about hunting, having borrowed a double barrel from Mark the previous year to hunt pheasants. So, she wants her own to hunt pheasants in Nebraska and grouse in Minnesota with her boyfriend. I told her to head on up to Puglisi's although that would not solve her problem as I have seen nothing there that she could afford, but it is a somewhat enchanting place to visit nonetheless. I also decided that was enough of an excuse to stop at the Omaha Cabelas the next morning in hopes of finding a steal that I could report back to Mark and he could send her after.

Well, the only gun in the store, new or old, that was worth a damn was that Warnier. At first, it sort of looked like a clunker. I put it back on the rack. But finding nothing else, I picked it up again. It felt kind of good. It had at least 1/2" of cast off, and it was relatively light (6lb 7oz) and almost perfectly balanced). The more I played with it, the more I realized that it felt a lot better than kind of good.

The wood, at first, looked like crap, but that was a combination of abominable lighting and old finish and just being in need of a strong cleaning. The checkering I noticed was in really good shape and then I realized that boarder of the checkering was really quite special and unique, and the wood was actually spectacular under the sludge.

Someone had fitted a red rubber pad to it, and done a good job as far as they went, but they stopped at the fitting to the wood and had not rounded the edges or even ground down the screw plugs that were at least an 1/8" proud of the pad. So it looked pretty stupid at first glance, but anyone could fix that in a few minutes. Furthermore, there wasn't a single crack, chip, significant scratch, or dent anywhere in the wood. The wood could clearly be restored to perfect condition to really show off that stock.

As for the metal, there were some stains and smudging and maybe even a light has of corrosion on the right lock plate. Indeed, the side lock plates (which I suspect were really false sidelocks) could also be easily returned to perfect condition without risk to the engraving. And a look at the barrels showed the same thing - just well worn bluing but easily polished in hour or so and reblued to perfection.

In short, this gun could be restored to mint condition without any problem. Even I could do all of it, and I like doing that sort of thing. It was a no brainer, but my brain was, apparently, still back in the truck in the parking lot.

Well, I reported back to Mark although I knew the price was a little out of the gal's price range. Maybe she would do it anyway. She didn't, and she was also a bit leery of the double triggers, having never shot double triggers before. But Mark thought it sounded really good and maybe he needed it, so he drove out on early Saturday morning to Iowa for the pheasant opener, which was great, and then after hunting on Sunday morning he drove back to Nebraska stopping Omaha with the idea that HE would buy the gun for himself - he was smarter than me, but, it turns out, he was also too late. Someone with both a brain and a sense of timing figured it out and bought it between the Thursday morning that I saw it and noon on Sunday. Oh well. I'll regret that one for a long, long time to come.

Perhaps someone here bought it. I hope so. More power to ya.

Nope, that gruesome soliloquy didn't help. I'll try a beer next....
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 11:45 AM
A good place for her to start her search would be to look at Mark Beasland's inventory on Guns International. I expect he could come up with something for her that won't break the bank. And he stands behind the guns he sells.

Just based on what little you've told us about the potential buyer and what she wants to do with the gun (sxs, preferably SST, pheasants in NE and grouse in MN), I'd make the specific suggestion of an Ithaca SKB Model 100, 12ga with 26" barrels (chokes would be IC/M).
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 02:06 PM
I would likely steer a newb off of a SXS, and onto something more like this:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101123779

Been there a while. I’d expect it would go out the door for less. Always good to get new folk in the game, and they usually shoot well with an O/U.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 02:10 PM

After further deliberation I've reduced my evaluation.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 02:29 PM
I've been given a few guns in my life. This one was new in the box:



A fellow on a board commented they might be worth more money if they didn't say "Richland Arms" on them, and he might be right. Anyway, it was new, in the box, and the good friend who bought it new and saw to it that it ended up with me has passed on to greener fields.

He was a hell of a guy. The Japanese didn't get the chance to train their 18" guns on many ships, but, they got a bead on his, the USS Gambier Bay, and blew it out from under his ass. He survived without a scratch.

Nobody has offered me a free G. Granger as of yet.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Genelang Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 07:08 PM
I've got a Richland 20 ga. I like it.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
I would likely steer a newb off of a SXS, and onto something more like this:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101123779

Been there a while. I’d expect it would go out the door for less. Always good to get new folk in the game, and they usually shoot well with an O/U.

Best,
Ted


Ted, I can't imagine any reason to do that. I can imagine 5 or 6 good reasons not to.
Posted By: ed good Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 07:26 PM
it has been my experience that richland arms imported decent inexpensive spanish made hunting guns...keep in mind, that inexpensive hunting guns are made to be carried a lot and shot a little...like maybe a box or two of shells a year...

biggest complaint against spanish guns has been soft sears, which can be rehardened when needed...

spanish guns are good values for the money...however, like other hunting grade guns, demand is decreasing, as is value...
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
I would likely steer a newb off of a SXS, and onto something more like this:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101123779

Been there a while. I’d expect it would go out the door for less. Always good to get new folk in the game, and they usually shoot well with an O/U.

Best,
Ted


Ted, I can't imagine any reason to do that. I can imagine 5 or 6 good reasons not to.


A good reason being, like, what, all the competitors in clay games shooting SXS guns? All the new SXS guns being built? Let’s hear all these good reasons you have.

Most people who use a SXS are experts, or, close, not newbs. Nothing breeds success like success, and an O/U is easier to shoot well than a SXS.

If she comes around to a SXS, good for her, if she doesn’t, she has an O/U.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 09:02 PM


Originally Posted By: ed good
it has been my experience that richland arms imported decent inexpensive spanish made hunting guns...keep in mind, that inexpensive hunting guns are made to be carried a lot and shot a little...like maybe a box or two of shells a year...

biggest complaint against spanish guns has been soft sears, which can be rehardened when needed...

spanish guns are good values for the money...however, like other hunting grade guns, demand is decreasing, as is value...


Ed,
Congrats on your firm, unwavering grasp of the obvious. The Spanish make some decent guns. And the pictured Richland gun is, in fact, Italian.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
I would likely steer a newb off of a SXS, and onto something more like this:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101123779

Been there a while. I’d expect it would go out the door for less. Always good to get new folk in the game, and they usually shoot well with an O/U.

Best,
Ted


Ted, I can't imagine any reason to do that. I can imagine 5 or 6 good reasons not to.


A good reason being, like, what, all the competitors in clay games shooting SXS guns? All the new SXS guns being built? Let’s hear all these good reasons you have.

Most people who use a SXS are experts, or, close, not newbs. Nothing breeds success like success, and an O/U is easier to shoot well than a SXS.

If she comes around to a SXS, good for her, if she doesn’t she has an O/U.

Best,
Ted


Well, #1. She wants a side by side. You may be good at selling stationwagons to women that want sports cars, but you would do better selling them sports cars if that's what they want.
#2. She has hunted pheasants for a year with a borrowed side by side. She knows of what she speaks.
3. She doesn't give a rat's ass about what competitive shooters shoot. She isn't even competing.
4. What is being made today has little to do with what is available on the market.
5. What you suggest is over her price range by quite a bit more than they are going to take for that particular gun
6. I hardly know the person and will probably never see her again. I'm just passing info and opportunity to someone looking for them. I am not her personal shooting coach or anybody she should trust in that regard.
7. I don't know a single "expert" that shoots side-bys. Not even one. I'm not an expert. I don't think you are an expert on side-bys either, unless, perhaps they happen to be Darnes and she cannot afford to think about Darnes.

I could go on, but in a nutshell, the worst thing to do to someone with some interest is to tell them to not do what they want to do, rather than help them find ways to accomplish it.

Sell that stationwagon to someone else.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 09:16 PM
The gun in the original post appears to be a Huglu.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=278896

Oops... I overlooked Drew's link. Sorry...

I would opine that zero dollars invested is exactly the right price.


Posted By: ed good Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 09:17 PM
ted: low end italian is generally better than low end spanish...

never heard of an italian made gun having soft sears...
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/03/18 11:52 PM
I mail-ordered one of those Italian made Richland Arms guns back in 1968, just prior to the 68 ban on mail order. In fact last new post-1898 gun I bought which didn't have to have a form 4477 filled out. My Son has it now. It's not really ben shot all that much, but the only problem I ever had was a too soft recoil pad. Pad was so soft it was like holding it just off your shoulder to shoot, giving it Jumping room to pound you.

The first two or three shotguns I ever shot were singles with outside hammers. The first one I actually owned was a SxS hammerless. I was a "Newbie" & Yes that gun Spoiled me. I still, 64 years later, prefer a SxS over any other style of shotgun. If the girl Wants a SxS, by all means, Start Her Right.
Posted By: fallschirmjaeger Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/04/18 12:41 AM
"Nope, that gruesome soliloquy didn't help. I'll try a beer next...."


That's a bummer. When I lose out on a gun and I get a little heart broken, the old lady always tells me it's "gun fate". Never know what will fall in your lap next.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/04/18 02:31 AM
Originally Posted By: fallschirmjaeger
"Nope, that gruesome soliloquy didn't help. I'll try a beer next...."


That's a bummer. When I lose out on a gun and I get a little heart broken, the old lady always tells me it's "gun fate". Never know what will fall in your lap next.


Well I drowned my sorrows in a Steven's Model 35 instead.

I'll remember that gun-fate thing. She might be on to something.

What the hell.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/04/18 04:50 AM
Originally Posted By: 2-piper
I mail-ordered one of those Italian made Richland Arms guns back in 1968, just prior to the 68 ban on mail order. In fact last new post-1898 gun I bought which didn't have to have a form 4477 filled out. My Son has it now. It's not really ben shot all that much, but the only problem I ever had was a too soft recoil pad. Pad was so soft it was like holding it just off your shoulder to shoot, giving it Jumping room to pound you..


Miller,
I have noticed a few of the 707 Richland guns with red pads, and a few like mine with black pads. I can’t complain about recoil with miine, but, the pad is 50 years old, and may not be as pliable as when it was new. Mine still has luscious white line spacers, which, many of the used guns seem to have lost over the years. Mine is also just over 6 1/2 lbs.
It is not a light 20 in any case. I have not fired any 3” loads in my gun.
If the quality of your example is anything like mine, you got a hell of a buy in 1968. The checkering, engraving, and case colors are first rate on mine. There is very little out there to compare to it, today. Mine is cast neutral, and I find the gun well balanced, and excellent handling. If one can tolerate a beaver tail, and an open pistol grip, it is a superb game gun. I actually prefer a slim beaver tail on a 20, it gives my hand someplace to go.
I consider it a better than average machine made gun. The Spanish examples from the same era that I have seen are rough as hell, and nothing to aspire to. Still, a regular at my local Ruffed Grouse Society fun shoots has one that was sold new with two sets of barrels, the longer of the two sets was MIA when he bought it, and he has used the gun for thirty or so seasons, with no trouble at all. He shoots a mean round of skeet with it.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/04/18 02:45 PM
Is that gun good for steel shot ?
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/04/18 07:54 PM
Ted;
I ordered my 707 through Herter's just before the GCA put them out of business. If I recall correctly I paid $139.00 for it. I Got it with 28" barrels & it weighed in at 6¼ lbs. I got it bored M/F & opened the right barrel to an I/C, a combination I still like. I bought "One" box of 3" #4 shot just to try them out. I was 30 then & could handle them but they were unnecessarily Stout in recoil. Probably about 95% of the shooting I did with it I used a 2½-1 oz load of either #7½ or #6 depending on what I was after. I reloaded those 3" hulls with a 1 1/8oz load of #5 at a modest velocity. I had one place I occasionally went squirrel hunting which did not allow rifles, but had a good population of Fox Squirrels. That proved to be a great load for them.
I don't recall now if the original pad was red or black. I just know it had a mushy feel. Replaced it with a black neoprene pad which was much firmer & it made a world of difference. The only time I ever encountered that problem, perhaps it was just a fluke & not typical of these guns, can't say.
I was not particularly fond of the Beavertail, but shot it well anyway, just like the aesthetics of a splinter better & can shoot them just as well. I was not into competitive shooting & my hunting did not require shooting fast enough for barrel heat to be a problem.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/05/18 02:25 PM
Miller,
As you say, I also prefer a splinter, but, as you also noted, it makes no difference in my shooting which front wood a gun has.
I have the box mine came in, and it was mismarked as to the guns actual choke combination. I actually have two boxes from European guns that have incorrect choke configurations for the guns they contained. The Richland is actually MOD and IM MOD, a usable combination for me. My Italian guns all have the choke marked on the tubes. The box said it was MOD and FULL.
In that era, European gunmakers could probably assume every American wanted beaver tails, white lines, pistol grips, recoil pads, and MOD and FULL chokes. A lot of guns came that way.
We now live in different times. Then, you could get a gun that has true charcoal case colors, sparse, but, well executed hand engraving, well done checkering, also by hand, that didn’t cost a small fortune.
Nobody serves that market today. I find it lamentable.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 04:05 AM
Ted, unless my memory is fading, I believe some of those 20ga Richland imports from Italy (Prandelli & Gasparini?) had 30" barrels. That was pretty unusual back then.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 04:17 AM
When I got mine I could have got it with 30", 28" or 26" barrels. The 26" ones came IC/M & the 28" or 30" both came with M/F chokes. I opted for the 28" which is my all-time favorite barrel length. They were made to Francis Sell's specs which meant a slight overbore & 1½" forcing cones. I recall him writing about using one & his had the 30" tubes.

They had the usual double under bolts & a hidden cross bolt, which didn't protrude out the left side when open like a Greener. It had the "Purdey" type push rod forend release.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 12:29 PM
Sell was a big proponent of the 3" 20ga.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 12:36 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Sell was a big proponent of the 3" 20ga.


What the heck is that supposed to mean ?
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 01:08 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Sell was a big proponent of the 3" 20ga.


What the heck is that supposed to mean ?


Read 2-piper's post. Here..............I'll help.

Originally Posted By: 2-piper
When I got mine I could have got it with 30", 28" or 26" barrels. The 26" ones came IC/M & the 28" or 30" both came with M/F chokes. I opted for the 28" which is my all-time favorite barrel length. They were made to Francis Sell's specs which meant a slight overbore & 1½" forcing cones. I recall him writing about using one & his had the 30" tubes.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 01:45 PM
Larry,
Indeed, the 707 was available with 30” tubes, but, would have been factory bored full and full:



This is an image from the 1968 Richland catalog. The dividing line between quality, and, of course, price was very sharp between the Italian built guns, and the Spanish guns. I’m guessing they sold far more of the Spanish guns, which, would be just one reason why people like ed think Spanish when they hear the name Richland.
The 707 was also available as a two barrel set, per the catalog, as were the Spanish versions.
Miller has described the action nicely, along with the modifications from standard 20 bore to what F.E.Sell prescribed as ideal. The weight for a 28” 20 gauge in the catalog is 6 lbs, 8 ozs, almost exactly what my gun weighs, porky for an upland 20 gauge, maybe perfect for a 20 that would see a lot of 3” fodder.

In a few years of looking at the guns for sale on the internet that Al Gore invented, I have only seen 28” model 707s. I would love to stumble onto a multi barrel 707.

Stan, you suffer fools well. God bless you.
Best,
Ted
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 02:35 PM
This example has been lingering a long time:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101047002

The white line spacers have been exorcised, and a replacement pad has found it’s way onto the gun. The barrels appear to have some freckling. I think $1500 is pretty optimistic, but, Italian 20s seem to surprise me on occasion.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 06:17 PM
Ted;
I note that Guns International list that one as weighing 6lb 2oz. Mine weighed an even 6¼ lbs. I seem to recall, though strictly on memory here & has been a long time ago, Sell saying his with 30" barrels went at least 6 3/4 lb or maybe even 7. "IF" I were planning on using very many of the fully loaded 3" shells I would want a minimum of 6 3/4 lbs. Even at the time, I bought that one & still to this day for 1¼ oz of shot I prefer the 12 gauge.

I know a lot of folks disagree with me & that's fine, but the only reason I can see for going down in gauge is to obtain a lighter gun. I would much prefer to load a gauge down than up.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 06:37 PM
Miller,
I going to go out on a limb and guess Richland was gunning, no pun intended, for the guy who had a mortgage, a wife who didn’t work, 2.5 kids, a single car garage with one car in it, and just enough room in the budget for a new gun, built to do nothing superbly, but, a few different things well. Provided the gun came in at less that $150 Richard Nixon era dollars, something our hero had to think twice about spending.
It would have been fine in a duck blind, ditto tramping around in a stubble field behind a lab, looking for pheasants, an OK squirrel gun, as you noted, and a grouse gun, if the shooter did his part. A few of them might have had a slug loaded into them also, and a deer taken.
I knew guys with one gun as a kid. A good rule of thumb I noticed was the more kids a family in my neighborhood had, the fewer guns, tools, and hobbies were practiced in that house.
We, as in you and I, were not the intended market, from what I can see from this late juncture.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 08:10 PM
I can offer one other good reason, Miller. You were invited to hunt wild quail on a neighboring plantation with the owner, who specifies that no gauge larger than a 20 be used, and only in guns that hold two shells maximum. Doesn't matter that he doesn't consider a 12 with 7/8 oz. loads just as sporting..............it's his place, his birds, his dogs.............................



and you're his invitee..............................



It's either honor his stipulations, or tell him "No, thank you".



SRH
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/06/18 10:10 PM
Stan;
In that situation, I would carry a 20 & probably l,oad it with 7/8 oz of #8's. If I were to carry a 28 I would only load it with 3/4 oz of 8's. I have never shot less than an oz from the 12 but would not hesitate to drop to 7/8 oz if it were a requirement.

Ted;
Your description fit me like a glove back in 1968. I was just finished with my apprenticeship, had a Wife, 3 children, one car & had turned that one car garage into another room. This one did shoot one deer, a doe. A state-managed area near me (where I worked at the time was on the property) had a Ladies only either sex hunt & my Wife carried it & killed a doe. This was also the area where I would occasionally go for the Fox Squirrels, though anywhere it was legal I normally shot a .22 LR with standard velocity loads. I did not like a sonic crack in a squirrel rifle so stayed away from the HiVel loads. Tried some shorts once but the rifle I was using, which was a tack driver with LR's threw a pattern rather than a group with shorts.

A year or so prior I killed my first deer, a 6-pointer that field dressed 174 lbs up in the mountains outside of Crossville TN. Used a re-worked Spanish
1916 in 7x57. It had already been modified when I got it so no chance of it ever being a collector so I dressed it up a bit better than it was. It had a bit of excess headspace so I reformed brass to fit out of 06 brass & loaded 140 Sierra bullets. The only deer we had back then around home was on that managed area. Now we have more deer than rabbits.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/07/18 01:00 AM
Miller,
Sorry, never pictured you as a one gun guy. But, if that was what the Richland Company was after, it sounds like they got their man.

Mine was given to me by the previous owner. I’ll bet he had 50 new in the box shotguns when he died, minus the Richland he gave me on a cold Thanksgiving.

Why I got this one is something I will never know for sure. He was a good friend. I try to make it out hunting at some point every Thanksgiving holiday, and I make a special effort to bring this gun for that trip. If I can’t make it out, the gun gets taken out of the safe, shouldered a few times, wiped down and returned.

Someday, I intend to pass the gun along the same way it came to me.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/07/18 01:27 AM
Ted;
Even then I was not a "1 Gun" man, but I didn't have very many back then.
By a lot of folks standards II still don't have a lot but have a lot more than I did in the 60's. I just started a new thread Picture Test. Shows the right & left side plates of my FE Lefever. This was the next gun I bought after the Richland, first one I had to do paperwork on. At that point, I was still a bit uneasy about shooting Damascus. I had bought this one for $125.00 & then spent $150.00 to send it to Italy & have a set of Boehler Steel barrels fitted, so $275.00 in it total, a big expense for me at that point in my life. By the time I decided to send it & it hen got delayed due to changes in customs laws it was in late 1970 before I got it back. For about the next 45 years it was my #1 go to gun for just about everything. Has 26" barrels with .012/.024 chokes. I have used some others along the way, but none as much as this one.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/07/18 02:39 PM
Miller,
I have killed perhaps two or three 3/4 ton pickup trucks full of squirrels, 99% of them with .22 shorts. I used a Remington 552, a gun that will fire all the different lengths of .22 ammunition and interchangeably. I’d be willing to bet that at the bench, the standard velocity long rifle stuff would be more accurate, but, shorts are accurate enough. Put a short through a bushy tail on a high branch, and 99 times out of 100, it knocks his little ass out of the tree. They are quieter, also.
My Remington 581 also handles .22 shorts just fine.
I retired from squirrel hunting when Dad started goose hunting, and he began leaving my Mom’s Irish Setter, a show dog that would hunt, at home.
We had a lot of fun.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/07/18 03:02 PM
Ted;
For a number of years, I shot squirrel with a lowly Mossberg 42-MC bolt action rifle with a 7-shot detachable magazine (most incorrectly call a clip). From a good rest at about what I considered my normal squirrel shooting range I could put those .22 LR's about touching each other. Best it would do with shorts was 4-6 inches, which is simply not accurate enough to kill squirrels. I could never figure out why & I know that lots of rifles chambered for the LR will also shoot shorts with good accuracy, but this one wouldn't. The magazine had a screw ending with a rod you threaded in from the bottom as a spacer to adapt it for the shorter cartridge. I had foolishly taken it on trade for something. The value was so low the only way I could realize a return was to Shoot It. As long as I stuck to the LR's if a missed a squirrel it was purely My Fault. A co-worker of mine at the time was an instructor for a youth shooting club & he bought Canuck 22's in standard velocity to use at an indoor range. He would let me have them at his cost, as I recall they were about $6.00 a carton at that time. None of our local stores even stocked any standard velocity cartridges back then, many still don't.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 01:28 AM
Miller,
You inspired me to get one of the .22s out for a walk. However, when I pulled the Remington 581 out of it’s case, I discovered it’s scope had been removed, for reasons I can’t remember. It has been a while, sadly. A few gun shows ago, on a lark, I bought a Weaver 1” 4X Marksman, in excellent condition, for $10.
Bolted it down today, and will sight it in tomorrow. The 581 had it’s barrel shortened an inch, and a target crown cut into it, and needs a scope to be used.
If the opportunity ever presents itself to you, I can recommend the Remington 580 guns as accurate little shooters, without reservation.
They will handle any .22 , short, long, or long rifle.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 03:13 AM
Ted;
As long as I can get the standard or sub-sonic LR I have no desire at all for the shorts. The reason I tried them in the Mossberg was to get away from the sonic crack. Back in the depression days shorts were cheaper than LR's so many shot them for the economy. Today when you can even find a short they are more expensive than the LR's. For a squirrel rifle, I always preferred the "Clip" over a tubular magazine & also prefer the 40-grain bullet over the 29 grain. Now that I am not hunting much anymore at all I have inherited a Marlin 39A which will serve all my purposes for a .22. This one belonged to my late Brother-in-Law & I also got a matching 336 in .35 Rem along with the 39A.

Although it didn't belong to me a shot a single shot bolt action Remington quite a bit. It was very accurate for a low priced gun as were nearly all Remington .22's I ever had any dealings with. As I recall this one was maybe a 512.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 11:57 AM
The last few times I squirrel hunted with a .22, it was with a close friend who had a great little fice squirrel dog, who would tree them and raise a furor until we arrived. He used a Ruger 77/22 and I used a Smith and Wesson K22 w/ 6" barrel. It's got wonderful square notch rear and square blade front sights, and is highly accurate at treetop distances. After that I became fond of using a .36 cal. Appalachian style longrifle with 25 grs. FFFG, head shots only. I need to start back. I'm overrun with the tree rats around here.

SRH
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 05:45 PM
I imagine the K22 shook up the woods a bit.

It never took more than 10 minutes or so for the woods to settle down after a .22 short came out of any of my rifles. If it was during a gentle rain, it took no more than five minutes.
More than once I fired a long rifle round off, and the woods didn’t really settle down. I would get tired of waiting and move on.
I could and did make a killer Brunswick stew back in the day, You know it’s good if your girlfriend eats it and asks for seconds.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 09:49 PM
It didn't matter much about the noise, Ted. The little fice dog would have another treed in a matter of minutes. All she wanted to do was grab the squirrel when it hit the ground and shake it a few times. Then, she was off to find another. Good squirrel dogs are valuable things down here.

It's an entirely different type of hunting than the quiet slipping through the woods, but great fun with a good companero.

SRH
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 09:58 PM
Ted;
My experience in the squirrel woods somewhat mirrors yours. However, in my experience, the Dividing line is not so much total noise as it is the Sonic Crack.
I have many times been beneath a tree which the Squirrels were working with several under it, pick one off using those standard vel LR's & the rest not even quit cutting. I did a lot of my hunting early while the leaves were still on, so I would then just start trying to get enough view of another to line up on. If they did stop, as you say would be only a very few minutes until they were back at work, if you didn't otherwise disturb them. Have even had the same results when I was using a shotgun as long as it was one of the lower velocity loads.

Normally one shot from a Hi-Speed .22 LR with its Sonic Crack would Clear the Tree in short order. As long as I stayed with the lower velocity LR's I had no more concern over the noise level than with shorts. In this regard, a pistol would be louder, but slower so one would not have the Crack.

Stan;
I built a .32 cal long rifle particularly to squirrel hunt with. It was plenty accurate with round balls for the job but could not be loaded for the 2nd shot without cleaning when using light loads. There would be a spot where apparently the powder was all burned up that would leave a big amount of fouling. By incrementally increasing the load that spot moved accordingly toward the muzzle. It didn't move out of the muzzle until somewhere around 50 grains of 3F. Velocity was so high it simply devastated a squirrel.

I then put a .45 caliber barrel on it, still with a round ball twist, & amazingly I could load it down to 20 grains & shoot it all day. It was much less destructive on a squirrel than was the .32 with the Hot Loads. It was accurate enough you could simply behead a squirrel & waste not an iota of meat unless one is a brain & tongue eater. It was also subsonic & would not clear a tree either, even though much louder than a .22 of any sort. The heavy loaded .32 had a Sharp Crack to it.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 10:18 PM
Miller, I understand the fouling problem, but I didn't have it that bad. However, it has always been my practice to run a spit dampened patch down the bore and then a dry one before reloading. I used flannel patches cut out of my old wornout work shirts.

I may have told this before, but one Thanksgiving, about 1992, my youngest son and I were squirrel hunting that morning. It was a terrible day for squirrels, being very windy. We walked up on a pretty beaver pond and were standing there by it thinking of the possibility of killing some woodies in it later. Just then, on the opposite side, a buck jumped up out of his bed and began to run downstream to our right. My son said, "shoot him Daddy! " I had the set trigger already set, and as I brought the rifle up I brought it to full cock. As I swung the front sight ahead of the running buck I was thinking that only a head shot would kill him, with that light load and little ball. So I swung it out ahead of him and touched the front trigger. Smoke blotted out everything, and I naturally assumed I had missed because I couldn't see him after the smoke cleared. I reloaded, we crossed on a beaver dam, and there he lay, shot through the neck. It was nearly an eighty yard shot, and the low velocity ball had dropped so much that what I meant for a head shot turned into a neck shot.

I grew several feet in stature in my boy's eyes that day!

SRH
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Turkish shotgun - 11/08/18 10:24 PM
I got it all put back together:



This is a first year 581. The first 6 months production had walnut stocks, and no serial numbers. The second 6 months had serial numbers, and African striped mahogany stocks, like this one. 1968 and after got birch and sometimes cherry, if they ran out of birch. This gun has had the barrel shortened about an inch, a target crown cut into the barrel, and the sight removed. It has to have a scope, and it is outstandingly accurate.

I went to the range to sight it in, and about three cars loads of Border and Customs enforcement had descended on the place to qualify and practice. The range folk would have made room for me, but, I told them to keep shooting, what they were doing was far more important than what I was doing, and I just live down the street.
I’ll be back.

My current Setter would be an outstanding squirrel dog, but, I don’t encourage her, or shoot mammals over bird dogs.

Miller, I have killed few, or, maybe no squirrels with a shotgun, but, a shotgun going off would scatter squirrels from what I have seen. When I was in the game, I had a run of good luck finding .22 short ammunition at garage sales, or, having my Mother keep her eye open at same. I had a bunch of it, none was new, and I didn’t know anything about sub sonic loads until years later.
Best,
Ted
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