Guys that know 21’s will know even without Cody records. That’s an old one, extractor gun, I’m not surprised there’s no letter. No worries there. Anyway, it’s the graded guns that one really needs to worry about in terms of originality, such as the engraved guns. A Cody letter is important on those guns, not so much on the standard grades. Even then, there are supposedly some phony records even at Cody that have been ‘slipped in’ on a few high grade, later serial numbered guns (that are not true Winchester produced guns), or so rumor has it.
Guys that know Winchesters are dying off. There are a smaller number of younger guys who benefited from them.
Mostly, the auction houses do their best. More than ever, this is the substantive advantage they provide buyers. Chain of possession/provenance helps alot.
As mentioned, tough with non-graded stuff.
Extractor, Two Triggers & splinter forend. Not likely it has tampered with.
Not much of a 21 fan, but likely one of the few, who if I ever did acquire one would actually prefer that configuration, except for perhaps ejectors.
Nice gun. Nice wood, scarce forend, double triggers and Win Butt plate (I'm assuming) are all a plus.
I wouldn't worry too much about convincing a potential buyer that your gun is factory original.
I think the bigger challenge is going to be to convince a potential buyer that he wants an old 12 gauge SxS.
Nice gun. Nice wood, scarce forend, double triggers and Win Butt plate (I'm assuming) are all a plus.
I wouldn't worry too much about convincing a potential buyer that your gun is factory original.
I think the bigger challenge is going to be to convince a potential buyer that he wants an old 12 gauge SxS.
This.
Best,
Ted
Not much of a 21 fan, but likely one of the few, who if I ever did acquire one would actually prefer that configuration, except for perhaps ejectors.
You and me both, Miller ..................on all counts.
SRH
Just shoot it, be a good caretaker, custodian, for it and let your heirs worry about it. Guns a terrible investments in all but the rarest cases. Stocks and bonds are better investments but very poor tools to shoot. While your gun is one you could enjoy, a lot of buyers will want more features like ejectors or higher grade of finish. Worse now buyers seem to think guns should all come with screw in chokes, adjustable stock or worse camouflaged finish or black finish. If records don’t exist you have no certain options.
Not much of a 21 fan, but likely one of the few, who if I ever did acquire one would actually prefer that configuration, except for perhaps ejectors.
You and me both, Miller ..................on all counts.
SRH
Yup. Put me in the same category. The only 21's I've owned have been early ones. The only downside, if you buy one and then attempt to sell it, is that a dealer is likely to tell you it's worth less because of the DT's, extractors, etc. Then watch what he lists . . . and presto, he's now offering a "rare" early Model 21 for sale. Which, he tells buyers, is worth more because it's so rare.
I tend to agree with KY Jon. Shoot it, enjoy it, and be a good steward. If down the line you choose to sell it, you should have no problems based on how Model 21's move and sell. Younger folks are taking an interest in some vintage guns. The problem that I see however, is they expect them to be flawless.
As a museum curator, I see a lot of valuable items that get donated to the museum. Most family members do not want to sell them. They get them appraised by an outside source, donate the artifact(s) and take the tax write-off.
As a side note, I just bought my first Model 21. I studied Schwing and Stadt's books and looked at a number of them before settling on a 16 gauge Skeet model. I'm pretty sure it is all original. I didn't buy it as an investment or something to sell down the line. I bought it because I always wanted one and finally could. I have already used it for woodcock.
When my time comes, my wife or sons can decide on the next owner.
To all
I am enjoying the 21
Both to own and to shoot
Extra fun to think it in original condition-warts and all
Extra Extra fun to shoot a vintage gun!
OMW, of all the gauges of the M21, to my eye, the 16 appears to have the best looking proportions.
OMW, of all the gauges of the M21, to my eye, the 16 appears to have the best looking proportions.
That's true of all of'em GLS, even the Stevens 311 and Winchester 24...Geo
If you are in the "21 cult" then they all are beautiful....
If you are in the "21 cult" then they all are beautiful....
Christmas miracle,
Words of wisdom from jOe and me agreeing with him.
No doubt the model 21 Winchester is right up there with the Colt single action in cult following.
GLS, yes I agree. I nearly purchased a 20 gauge Trap grade with 28" barrels. I went with the 16 because I knew in my heart that was what I wanted.
At just a tad over 7 pounds I wouldn't call it the ideal partridge/woodcock gun, but for morning hunts like mine I'm enjoying it.
OMW, of all the gauges of the M21, to my eye, the 16 appears to have the best looking proportions.
That's true of all of'em GLS, even the Stevens 311 and Winchester 24...Geo
You're pushing it now, Geo. A 24???? A 24 wouldn't look right if it was built in a fo'hunnert 'n ten.
SRH
OMW, of all the gauges of the M21, to my eye, the 16 appears to have the best looking proportions.
That's true of all of'em GLS, even the Stevens 311 and Winchester 24...Geo
You're pushing it now, Geo. A 24???? A 24 wouldn't look right if it was built in a fo'hunnert 'n ten.
SRH
Goldilocks gauge. And I'll stick by what I said. De Gustibus...Geo
What percentage of buyers get a letter or let that be the deciding factor?
That Model 21 expert , was he from Cal. , reportedly made up his own letters. Is that good enough ?
That Model 21 expert , was he from Cal. , reportedly made up his own letters. Is that good enough ?
Now THAT is very interesting to hear.
In the last 48 hours here, we have heard that fake factory authenticity letters are being produced.... rare expensive single-barrel bourbon bottles are being refilled with cheaper product... and some custom gunsmiths farm-out or sub-contract part of the work you pay them big bucks to do.
What's the world coming to?
I'm still trying to get connections and tips from SKB on how to become a farming gunsmith.
It is my understanding that the 16 and 20 (and later the 28 and .410) Model 21's are all on the same frame- a wise move that WRA developed, as compared perhaps to the many many frame sized Parker offered-- Just as in Model 12's, with the 16, 20 and 28 gauge gun all based on the same receiver size.
In 1948, my late father bought a used 12 gauge M21- field grade: SST, EJ, 28" barrels choked imp. cyl. and mod. field splinter forearm, pg. buttstock with red WRA pad- Strangely, at least to me, is that it is marked 3" chambers- nut it is NOT the M21 Duck model- I have never shot anything but 2&3/4" loads in it, since Dad gave it to me in 1980-- lots of "wear with care" but I have killed cleanly many pheasants with it-
Here's what I don't grasp about the "dealer" and the rarity of the first series (1931-1946??) M21's with two triggers and extractors-- sure, they want to "make their profit" on the buy- and that's why they lower the price on extractor -two-trigger guns when they buy them, and then mark them up to "rarity"
Following that logic, a Parker GH 20 with DT and Extractors should be "rarer" than the same 20 ga- a GHE with Parker single trigger?? Foxy
Foxy;
Two things I'll have to disagree with you on.
1st that WRA developed the idea of building different gauge guns all on the same frame. Several makers had been doing so well before the 21 was introduced. In Fact, many of those so-called parker frame sizes are not truly different frame sizes at all, only the standing breech & consequently firing pin spacing was varied to accommodate barrels of different weights.
2nd a GHE with a single trigger is rarer than a GH with double triggers, just as a double trigger 21 with extractors & splinter forend is rarer than a 21 with ejectors, beavertail & single trigger.
Thanks- I stand corrected, at least on the Parker frames-- I know that the frame depth was fairly std., the width and the dim. of the firing pin holes on centers varied from frame to frame size, and gauge. I have always thought that a No. 1 size Parker frame would measure an even 1.000" on center. Is that accurate.
I thought that as WRA brought out the M21 during the Depression, using the same frame for a 16 and a 20 gauge would be an economical move, reducing the frame inventory needed. Am I right that the M21 with extractors and double triggers retailed for about $59.95 when it first came on the market. A STT and/or AE were added, just as with Parkers, Smiths, etc.
I guess I didn't phrase my analogy properly-- mea culpa-- As the Fjestad Blue Book shows ejectors and single triggers (along with beavertailed forearms, ventilated ribs, etc.) as added value factors to a basic DT/EXT graded shotgun, condition being another caveat, of course--let me try again-- which shotgun is worth more on the market today- both guns 20 gauge with 28" barrels, open choked (no added choke tubes) - A M21 with a 20% barrel and receiver blueing, 20% original stock finish and a replacement pad, checkering worn down, pg and beavertail forearm, and with SST and ejectors- or the same M21 but with DT, EXT, splinter forearm, blueing in 90% condition, wood and checkering 95%, and original WRA logo BP-- a "safe queen" indeed.
One reason I am shy of gun dealers and brokers as their sometimes miss-leading comments about condition, ditto auction houses in their listings of up and coming firearm listings. The only "rare" thing, IMO, about a M21 made in 1933- is its age or vintage, and I cannot see paying a premium to a dealer for that factor. But, I usually buy my guns (used) to keep and shoot, and not for some possible future re-sale at a profit.
Today's used gun market doesn't warrant such speculation, look at the prices pre-1964 Model 70's and Model 12's bring. I don't seriously consider the M21 market, as I have one I inherited, and do not, at age 77, really plan to invest in another one. RWTF
I do not believe the Win 16 and 20 share the same frame.
Has anyone seen a 16/20 gauge 2 barrel set?
I suppose if I'm wrong, someone will be along shortly.
Best Holiday wishes to all.
A Happy and Healthy New Year.
fOx I never knew you were in the Winchester 21 Cult....
Was that, perhaps, the late Don Criswell, of Yorba Linda CA?? I used to get his fine catalogues, before the Internet, and I know he specialized in Model 21's. My M21 has a sn of 159XX- I know Dad bought it used in Sept 1948- and used it each Fall until 1979, then passed it on to me in July 1980. I went to Schwing pocket book on Winchesters, page 135- Ned notes this: "Serial numbers for Model 21's are NOT indicative of when the gun was built. Therefore, no serial number list is given"--Strange, as he lists M12 and M97 sns.
Let me check on that- my Jack O'Connor book on Shotguns might clear that up, as Jack was a booster for the M21 shotguns- "back in the day"!
From what I gathered in his books Jack was a booster of anything he got for free....you know deep down he preferred the 7x57 over the .270.
Hey Joseph- I didn't realize there was a "Cult" for the M21- I surmise there is not a M21 Collectors Assn. extant, as the Parker, Fox and L.C. Smith lads enjoy. The only reason I own and shoot one is my late father giving me his. I would most likely NOT pay the going freight to own one today, even a plain Jane field grade 12 such as I am fortunate to possess.
If I wanted a good solid boxlock double gun, with a reliable SST and ejectors, I'd look for a later series Ithaca NID (sans the "snail ears" cocking pins"--and end up possibly money ahead--RWTF
The reason you can't date a model 21 by the serial number is due to Winchester forging / machining a bunch of frames with serial numbers stamped on them in advance of anticipated sales. The sales of 21's were fairly slow and it took years to use the pre-made frames. When an order for a 21 would come in, the workman would just grab a frame and start the production of the gun without concern for continuity in serialization. The only way I know of to date a Model 21 is through the records at the Cody museum.
I do not believe the Win 16 and 20 share the same frame.
You're not wrong, re 21s.
Maybe yes, maybe no- I went to my signed copy of Steve Bodio's book "Good Guns Again"--1994-Wilderness Adventure Press: ISBN no.: 1-885106-o6-8.. pages 42 & 43--In his discussion of this model, Steve wrote: The 16 is exceptionally well-balanced, and 3-inch 20's on the same frames-- etc.. Not 100% proof, but possibly enough for a discussion over "sundowners" perhaps. As I do not own, nor plan to purchase a M21 in either 16 pr 20 gauge, it is a moot point.
One reason I like Bodio's book is that in this same chapter he goes on to praise my favorite, my "go-to" shotgun- the "Perfect Repeater" On page 44, he even quoted Mr. Geoffrey Boothroyd, a noted British gun writer for "Shooting Times & Country" magazine-
"The Winchester Model 12, for example, cannot be faulted in its styling, whereas the much vaunted Winchester Model 21 double is, in my eyes-- truly ugly--
I have to look for my O'Connor book, also my copy of Gene Hill's "Shotgunner's Notebook" and see what they may have said about the M21's and various frames. Somewhere I recall reading that the M21 had 2 frames at first- 1 for the 12, 1 for the 16 and 20- they later increased that to 4, adding one for the 12 with a Ventilated rib, and one for the 16 and 20 with that same optional feature-- My Dad's old 12 field grade has 3" chambers, as marked on the barrel breech, but is NOT a DUCK model- and the frame mikes out the same as a friend's 12 M21 skeet grade- FWIW- both are guns are pre-Custom shop era, with the reinforcing bosses on the receiver sides--RWTF
Differences between 12, 16, 20 ga frames are subtle. Mostly in pin hole distances. Schwing, pp 51-53.
....And Schwing actually states there are 6 frames, a frame each for 12, 16 and 20 gauges, and then a separate frame for each of those gauges with a ventilated rib, totaling 6 frames in all.
6 frames is enough to cause a cult.
Jack did a lot of hunting with a 30-06. He did a lot of writing about a .270. He probably figured most people who read his stuff never got out of the region they lived in to hunt, and wouldn’t cross paths with him in Alaska, India, Iran or Africa.
He was probably right. American white tailed deer don’t try to kill you when they are wounded, either.
Dad was a regular reader of Jack, and claimed if Jack had lived long enough, he would have been hawking the Remington .280.
I did just enough deer hunting in the late 1970s to figure out it wasn’t my cup of tea, and didn’t care what Jack thought about rifles. If Jack was hawking model 21s, it wouldn’t have mattered much either, as neither my Dad or I could have afforded one in that era.
Best,
Ted
Thank you, Samuel. I do not have the Schwing book on the M21, and I believe what you have stated. If I were a serious M21 collector I might want to own a copy, and he is a well-known authority on Winchesters.
My two "anchor points" in my gunning library are not quite as accurate as Schwing- (1) I have a copy of a WRA Salesman's Handbook, 1938- and on the section detailing the M21, the pages state the minimum net weight of a finished M21- in 12-16 and 20 gauges- with varying barrel lengths and other factors: recoil pads, style of forearm, rib styles, etc. I think it is safe to say that the M21 of that pre-War era was "over-built" for strength, just as was the M12 Heavy Duck Gun, which came out about 1936--
I did go to my copy of Gene Hill's "Shotgunner's Notebook" and he touches on M21's on pages 84-85: "It's often a personal evaluation, but, for example, I don't find that something extra in the old Parker 12 bores. They strike me as a touch clubby. Most 20 gaughe Model 21's are a bit heavy, while most 16-gauge 21's are almost perfect, using the classic standards."
It was from the late Gene Hills' comment that I inferred that the std. M21 in 16 and 20 gauges shared the same frame size. No big deal.
Joe- I hope you don't mean "cult" as in the sense of: Charles Manson, David Koresh and Jim Jones. But it does raise the question, to me at least, "Was there a M21 Collectors Website".. Seems to me there was, but somehow faded away.
My high school library in the 1950s (I graduated 1956) kept both Outdoor Life & Field & Stream mags so I began reading them. I subscribed to both for a few years following. Jack wrote predominately of the .270 in a Win 70 as I recall. Page wrote up the Mashburn 7mm Short Magnum.
In shotguns Jack praised the 21, while Warren liked O/Us, don't recall his preferred brand. Both did an extensive write up on the 21 when Win "Introduced" the 3" 20 gauge Magnum. It was originally loaded with 1 3/6 oz of #4 or 1 1/8 oz of #6. Both sizes were soon stepped up to 1¼ oz.
I couldn't afford a 21 either, at the time was shooting a pre-WWI J Stevens Arms & Tool Co 12 gauge double, I "Think" a model 325 but not sure now. I consoled myself by the fact it was equally as ugly as a 21 with its flat backed frame with cigar box-shaped bar. It used pushrods through the bar for cocking with surrounding coil mainsprings much like the 21. One could easily say the WW stole the design from Stevens. Once I got hold of a decent looking shotgun I traded it off & to this day have never had a desire to own another or a 21 either.
In all honesty though, in spite of its shortcomings, I will have to say it started me down the road to ruin. I still have little desire for any shotgun which isn't a SxS double.
PS; It was flat sided, didn't have those stupid points on the side that looked like they were chopped on with a Foot Adz.
Right, Buzz, and that's not counting the 28 and .410.
I too read everything Jack wrote. About the .270 and being young did not take much of it with a grain of salt. I went moose hunting in Alaska, when a Brown Bear and I crossed paths. It attacked. Bears are so much faster than you can imagine and this one was not in the mood to be a teddy bear. Against all odds I killed it with a .270 which I was foolishly carrying that day. My lucky, desperate shot was against very long odds.
It was not Jack’s fault, but thinking what he wrote about the .270 being a wonder caliber and capable of taking a moose I never considered the many worst case situations. Wounded animal, charging bear or in my case surprised bear with a nasty disposition. While a .270 was capable for taking a moose cleanly, under the right conditions, it was about as poor a choice as possible for dealing with any bear. For that matter a wounded moose in thick covered would have been no picnic with a .270. After that experience I never again went hunting under gunned unless you consider a .410 as a under gunned.
Researcher:
Thank you for posting that link. Lots of good info.
Merry Christmas
Right, Buzz, and that's not counting the 28 and .410.
Other than the Galazan Model 21’s which are built on scaled or “Baby” frames,
the Winchester 28 and 410’s were built on the 20 gauge frame.
20 gauge tubes were used and drilled to the appropriate 28 and .410 bores
resulting in extremely heavy and poorly balanced sub gauge guns.
Didn't Dave Carlson, Mgr. of the WRA Custom Shop, receive a order from John Olin to built a .410 M21- after seeing one "customized" M21 into that midget caliber, assembled by Ernie Simmons, of Olathe, KS.
The M42, some refer to it as the "Baby Model 12", is correct to scale for its smallish gauge, but most .410 bore double guns built on 20 gauge frames, look almost freakish, to my eyes anyway. Like the late Nash Buckingham, I view the sub-bore .410 as a great crippler of game birds- with the caveat that two of Ernest Hemingway's sons, Patrick and Gregory, ran high scores on live pigeons at the Club in Cuba, with .410 shotguns-against grown men using 12 gauge shotguns.
I have been collecting and shooting Model 12's for 40 plus years, and have turned down any and all offers on Model 42's--Not my "cup of tea" I guess.
By "under gunned" Jon, do I surmise that you use a .410 for dove and quail, but never for dangerous game animals? I once read that WRA took a 20 gauge M21 and re-barreled for a .405 calibre "double express rifle""- possibly one is in the Cody Museum. Let's see, a .405 caliber would fall between a .375 H&H Magnum, and a .416 Rigby, correct.
We get into feral pigs on occasion, thanks to some that escaped their pens from a private wild game ranch, a few clicks NE from where I live. One of my farmer friends in that area is a real rifle "nut" and likes the big bores- Mauser style BA rifles, and has a .375 H&H Magnum, and killed a large boar with it this past Sept (no closed season on feral pigs, and no license req'd here in MI to kill them.
That largish caliber might be "over kill" for moose, I don't know, as I have never hunted moose, or elk. But as the late Robert C. Ruark once wrote these words of wisdom: "Use enough gun!"
When I began hunting, I was a big fan of Jack O'Conner, and became a disciple of the small bore light bullets at high velocity school of thought promoted by him and Roy Weatherby. Then I started hunting with a flintlock and noticed that large diameter bullets or balls at modest velocities did a better job. They killed all out of proportion to their kinetic energy.
Elmer Keith was right.
Ky I had an elephant charge me when I was hunting mice at the Memphis zoo...
You know how I killed him KY...
I threw a fire cracker in his ear.
No doubt a cherry bomb would've been better but the small cracker did him in.
Wish I had taken pictures.
Oh well...maybe next time.
Other than the Galazan Model 21’s which are built on scaled or “Baby” frames,
the Winchester 28 and 410’s were built on the 20 gauge frame.
You're right, Bob. Was thinking of those Galazan guns.
There are differing opinions as to "Frame Sizes". With Parker, it is quite obvious if the scooted the firing pin spacing in a 16th of an inch & took a bot off the perimeter of the standing breech they called it another frame size. Personally, I do not call that another frame size.
Many .410s have been built on what were essentially 12 ga frames by the act of putting the firing pins close together & cutting down the standing breech. L C Smith ran of ability to lower the top so they elevated the barrels higher above the action flats to compensate. Many .410s so built have a bar so wide they have almost "No Balls" left.
Personally, a .410 to me doesn't even classify as Cute, unless it is built in proportion with a teeny matching frame, but of course, that's just my opinion.
What is the current thought about Model 21’s with serial numbers under 1700
Cody did not have any info on mine
To go back to your original question, there are a couple of things that you can do. If Cody has no records, you can check the link that Researcher kindly provided.
You can also go to the Griffin and Howe site and check to see if your serial number appears in their database. This would mean that it was purchased and sold at some point by A&F. If so, this may tell you more.
As the current owner, you can document as much about it as possible. If you do not currently have Schwing's book on the Model 21 I would recommend purchasing a copy and study the features and characteristics of your gun. Does your gun jive with what Schwing presents and illustrates? Again, write notes with dates and keep a file on your gun.
As to "authenticity" it is a Winchester Model 21. What a potential buyer will be interested in down the road is original condition. Or, what if any modifications have been done and by whom.
People like the letter. Whether it is from Cody, the PGCA, etc. Since Cody has no record, and if the other options show nothing, it will be important to have that self-generated file, to include the fact that Cody has no record. More importantly, be a good steward of the gun for as long as you wish to hold onto it. Personally, I do not feel that you will have any problem down the road selling an early production Model 21.
Finally and most importantly, enjoy it. Care for it and use it in your chosen activities. They were meant to be used.
Hope this helped.
