Just got off the phone with David Trevallion. He tells me that an 1877 Purdey 12 bore with Damascus barrels he's owned for 30 years just blew yesterday. The barrels were in perfect shape, not dented; the shooter was using RST low pressure loads. The shooter, a friend is bringing the gun over this afternoon for him to examine. He said he'll send photos. Will post them when/if they arrive.

This is gonna be interesting!

So which one of you curmudgeons is it?

"I also note that in the USA there is one chap who is active on websites who believes that all Damascus steel barrels are so dangerous they should be destroyed."

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/wha...cus-steel-13767

Seriously, interested in hearing the post-failure analysis.

I have a damascus gun I shoot with only one factory load. It (7/8 ounce 12 ga) is reported at 6500 to 7500 psi by the maker. I otherwise load all my own low pressure loads at < 6000 psi.

RST does not list the pressures on their website so I wouldn't shoot them in any damascus gun without further information.

As it is a Brit made gun just a couple of questions, what is the bore measurement, and chamber length now?

My experience is that RST is happy to provide pressures if you ask.

I'm thinking the reference is to Randy Wakeman

just finishing up a set of almost new Westley barrels. I had to bob the muzzles 3/4" after an obstruction caused the right side to blow out. Could be many causes on the Purdey barrels.

RST will answer any questions about the pressures on their loads. I hope that more information about the blown 1877 Purdey barrels is posted. Argo44, did David Trevallion mention the minimum barrel wall thicknesses or any issues in the area where the barrels blew?

Like I've always said you never know when they're gona blow...

At this point, I'll throw out a wild-assed guess and say he left the gun where mud dauber wasps were able to build a nest in the barrels, or there was some other bore obstruction. The closest I ever came to a Shotgun blow-up was a strange feeling that I should check the barrel on a shotgun I was pointing at a groundhog near my garden. I lowered the gun and eased back into the garage and saw the barrel was plugged solid with a mud dauber nest. I now keep tape over the muzzle of my garage gun.

Second guess would be a problem with the cartridge. The gun was tried and true for 141 years. Every shell you chamber is a brand new unproven potential problem. Even factory loads with strict quality control sometimes get recalled due to screw-ups. Might be worth sending out some unfired shells from that box for pressure testing. At this point, guessing is just discussion.

I'm guessing that it wasn't a fault with the barrels. As mentioned, likely an obstruction or a shell issue.

It'll be interesting to see the pics ............whether it was a chamber blow out or down the barrel aways. That tells a lot in itself.

If the chamber blew it was almost certainly an overload that caused it. If it was way down the barrels, an obstruction.

SRH

Unlike Wakeman and jOe, I’ll be waiting for the evidence before deciding what went wrong.

Don't compare me to him...I just said you never know when one will blow.

At least we can all mostly be on the same page about Wakeman.

Actually, you do.

Stick the muzzle in the snow or mud then shoot it, it will blow.

Leave a cleaning patch in the bore, it will blow.

Shoot it with a wad in the bore, it will blow.

Mistake IMR 4227 for black and load by volume, it will blow.

Very few such incidents remain a mystery once the failure is examined.

Don't kid yourself they have blown for no apparent reason.

Anxious to see the images Gene.
Prior to any of us sharing our opinions (learned or otherwise ), it might be worth reviewing this protocol and an example of a blown barrel evaluation which was in The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal, Vol. 27, Issue 3, p. 17, 2016; to my knowledge the only published failure analysis

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

The most telling statement in that report:

"...unusual report with every previous shot..."

Joe, why don't you list all the barrels that burst for no apparent reason you have personally seen. You sound like you have quite a list. I know of one. It's because I loaded 94grs of PB by mistake. I thought I had Pyrodex in the bottle, and it took 4 shots - station 2 on the skeet field. Blown chamber & 23 stiches on my forearm. I had the shells tested. They were 23,500psi. The gun was a 1889 Remington twist barrel hammergun. I even sent the barrels to some place in California for testing, but never hear anything back. Any type of barrel blows in the chamber because of too much pressure, down the barrel because of a obstruction. I could be wrong but these look like the chamber blew.

I saw several of them on this site.

Along with the pics of the blown barrels, was there any evidence or suggestion as to cause? Obstructions, double charge etc?

I believe most documented with images blow-ups shown on this or other shotgun related internet sites in the last 10 years are documented here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17546456
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24513874
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24519472

and the vast majority are rationally explained by:
1. obstruction
2. thin barrels
3. over-pressure loads
4. "inexpert" chamber and forcing cone lengthening



Damascus barrel welds do fail



and may have inclusions



And this, I believe, was caused by smokeless powder detonation, but we REALLY do not want to go there
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/shotgun-blowups.244114/
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/smokeless-powder-ddt.245629/

There was always big discussions.

1904 article on burst barrels

https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/38180/rec/3

All the barrels I have seen, after the fact, or heard about from reputable sources have been steel barrels. They go too. Always easiest for human nature to blame the mechanical devise instead of human error. That's why you have to buy a new gun to pick up an extra target or two!? vmmv :-)

Shoot old guns, drive old cars,etc: things can happen

New guns and new cars fail too. I've seen a number of brand new cars broke down along the highway that still have the sticker in the rear window. The hammer failed on my Colt Trooper mkIII .357 Mag before it had 200 rounds through it. Many defects rear their head when things are quite new, then the number of failures goes way down until the item nears or reaches end of life through age, wear, abuse, or planned obsolescence.

We see a lot more barrel failures with fluid steel because there are a lot more steel barrels still in use vs. Damascus. Neither type is immune to bursting due to stuck wads, mud dauber nests, reloading errors, etc. I've told the story about being totally blind for about a half hour after having a complete head separation on a .22-250 in a sporterized VZ24 Mauser action rifle. Shit happens. Wear shooting glasses and avoid mistakes and warning signs.

But where are these pictures and evidence already? It's not like someone had to drop off a roll of 35 mm film at the drugstore and wait for developing and prints.

If it was David, it just might be on 35mm.

There is a picture of David, with his trusty 35, documenting an old gun with MM.


I still shoot film.

Best,
Ted

People have a hard time posting digital pics here. Posting 35 mm photos is going to be even more fun. We may be speculating and guessing for a while...

I still have my Canon AE-1 and an Olympus compact 35 mm camera. Haven't used either in quite some time, but you never know. Vinyl LP's have made a bit of a resurgence, so why not film?

I'll call David tomorrow. I wanted to give him a chance to get the gun back and look at it. He only had a phone call at the time I talked to him and was upset at losing the barrels to his Purdey.

There are two things that might impinge my getting photos. 1) he doesn't do computers anymore. I might be able to talk him through taking photos and forwarding them. 2) He can be protective of the information - he mentioned possibly writing an article but I'm not sure he has the energy anymore for that.

Alternatively, he's mentioned several times wanting to talk to Dr. Drew. Drew has posted photos for him before. If I fail, I'll let others follow up. At the least though I'll get a description.

Just a suggestion... perhaps he might be able to text a few cell phone pics... if he isn't saving that for an article.

Until then, here's an old thread about a burst in one of those new-fangled fluid steel bombs. Pictures also optional.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=13496&page=1

I can easily take pics with my Canon and download them to my computer off the SD card, but seldom do anymore. It's so easy to use the camera in the Droid cell phone I already have on me and send them to my computer. And, the truth is, the camera in the Motorola Razr Maxx HD is much more forgiving ............... bad as I hate to admit it.

SRH

Stan, to answer the question in your tagline:

I'd be old enough to know better, but still too young to care!

These are images from the thread that Keith referenced. Fluid Steel barrels. Using Sellier & Bellot 1 1/4 oz. at 1215 fps. Proved for 1 1/4 oz. 2 3/4" shells.





another new fangled steel barrel. Used Perazzi MX2000 barrel. 3" 1 3/8 oz. Kent Bismuth shell. MWT at burst .012".

O ye master of Damascus knowledge that only recently got a Damascus barreled gun....no doubt your infactuation with Dasmascus rivals Argo44's for Reiley shoot'guns.

Too bad you weren't here when he still posted here...I recall one post he made showing how he repaired the splintered wrist of a shotgun stock that had been ran over by a Land Rover...I think it was a Boss unbelievable job...not so sure I believed it looking at all the broken pieces.

If I recall right he worked at Purdeys...I suspect his old age let's him talk to you about a pOOr Reiley.

You might want to consider a CLA (clean, lube, adjust)on one or both if you consider keeping them around. It is getting harder to find folks who do that. One of the premiere Canon wrenches, based in California, just retired and moved home to Japan. Had my F1 overhauled before he left. It should run the rest of my life. The premier Konica guy, Greg Weber, is still at it. Not a young guy.

I usually buy a CD with high resolution images when I have a roll of film developed. Easy to post pics anywhere with a 35 doing that. I’ve also used the wife’s printer to scan images, or, simple taken a digital picture of an image to post it.

Best,
Ted

Do we REALLY have to go through this again Frank. And I'm still waiting for your apology for accusing me of being a liar; not very Southern Gentlemanly.

Steel and leather handguard over the thin spot



You'll like this; just past the forcing cone



Been using it regularly for 3 years with 3/4 oz. at 1185 fps handloads, after Col. Byron had put 250 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. Polywad Spred-R shells, 100 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. at 1145 fps. (about 8000 psi) loads, and 2 cases (500 shells) of 2 1/2” RST 3/4 oz. at 1100 fps (4,600 psi per RST) though the barrels. I'll let you know when it blows up.

Deal with your past hurts, anger and hostility Frank; you'll be happier, live longer, and might even find a friend or two.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3019061/

Well, at least he didn’t hit you with the Gurnall.

Hello, Drew, glad you are well.


__________________________
He who sings, prays twice.
https://youtu.be/2H5rusicEnc

Thanks LR. Had to dig some larvae out of my ankle after returning from my relaxing long weekend in Dec. No Malaria or Zika.
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24823922

Was in the middle-of-nowhere and this kid walked up with a KC Royals t-shirt!



Here you go

William Gurnall The Christian in Complete Armour
‘The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth,’ saith Solomon, (Proverbs 16:23); that is, he will not (allow) his tongue to run before his (intellect), but knows what he shall speak before he sends his tongue (and typing fingers) on his errand.

Why you feel the need to throw up the "protection picture" ?

As far as I'm concerned Missionaries are the worst evil to ever set foot on this planet...the natives were right to chop off and shrink their heads.

Back to Damascus....

When you first became infatuated with Damascus you did not own or shoot one...stop trying to make me out a liar.

Why do you think that image was for you Frank? But BTW the Gurnall was.

You've proven yourself to be a liar again.
9-5-18
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=521601&page=3
Dr. Drew loves Damascus barreled guns...yes sir re.
He just doesn't own or shoot one.

Present tense Frank. And you are not very good at this.

So please share what emotional gain you derive from your (now pitiful) attempts to hurt, denigrate, and bully others? Does it somehow make your own pain better? Or are you such a sociopath that it is only by hurting others that you can feel any joy?

Just got off the phone with David. The gun was an 1877 Purdey 12 bore hammer gun with 30" barrels. Hammer's had been replaced with Purdey hammers off an old gun. His best French walnut had gone into restocking it. It was to be rechecked and re-engraved. It had first been owned by a Yorkshire industrialist. The barrels as far as he could tell was in perfect shape, no pitting, no dents.

The left barrel blew 2" from the muzzle. It curled the rib back onto itself. He acknowledge that this would usually be caused by a barrel blockage; he doesn't think it was the wad - modern plastic wads don't stick in the barrel. He's a bit mystified. He has photos and will try to send me some. At the same time he and "Steve" are writing an article about it for "Shooting Sportsman." I used Dr. Drew's name and he recognized the expertise and will send photos later this afternoon.....maybe. (Maine has 12" of snow on the ground at this moment).

He is pondering what to do with the gun. He could cut the barrels back to 28" and be done with it. However, he believes longer barrels shoot best with Damascus. He is in contact with a former Purdey and Holland & Holland barrel maker in UK who makes new Damascus barrels. Bill Blacker. www.billblacker.co.uk. It would cost $4,000 to make a set and he doesn't know which way he'll go.

I'll post photos when/if they arrive. I told him I respected the article he plans to write but there are a lot of us who shoot Damascus and RST and that Dr. Haus has done a lot of analysis of barrel blow-outs. It might be good to have a second opinion.

And Dr. Drew, don't feed the troll. He is no Southern Gentleman; We have a 3 word phrase for people like that down South and it starts with "Poor"... and ends with "Trash."

Did you drop a "1" off the price of new barrels? Last I knew steel barrels were 10,000 GBP from Blacker.

No...that's what David told me on the phone. I haven't a clue. Perhaps it was a special price for him...or he made an error speaking on the phone...or I misheard "4" for "14." He was awaiting a phone call from Blacker. I mentioned to David that Drew also has done a lot of work on Damascus here, trying to get the photos from him.

I guess you didn't get the memo. The preferred moniker is 'Deplorable'. Unbelievable.


________________________
Everybody from the 313 throw your blankety blank hands up and follow me. Eminem

To this point, I had a modern plastic wad get lodged in a .719 (tight 12) damascus barrel about halfway down the bore. Fortunately, the guide heard it and I didn't clear it with a subsequent shot.

More info here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=495392&page=1

Anyone that thinks a plastic wad won't get hung in a Damascus barrel either doesn't know chit from chinola...or has just miss spoke or forgotten.

Best the deplorable keeps his conversations private if he can't get the facts right.

Thats the thread where Kieth proved you a liar...can you say Amen dOc

Any idea how a relatively new Perazzi could have wound up with 0.012 MWT?

Wow, here we go again... And once again, just what do these Photos of mission trips to Guatemala have to do with either double guns or the subject of this thread?

I put part of the QUOTE above in BOLD PURPLE COLOR because I thought the statement was hilarious. The link to that 2018 thread was where you got caught telling a lie about me by falsely stating that I was Best Friends with RymanGunDog Dave. See post #522392 in that thread, and my follow up comments. You refused to acknowledge that you had lied about me, on more than one occasion. That's why it is really funny to see you harping on jOe for his alleged lie.

But it was quite true when jOe had PM'd you, that "the Doctor of Damascus" actually owned not a single Damascus barreled gun at that time. From the thread above, we are aware that you apparently own one L.C. Smith OE 12 gauge Damascus gun with pitted barrels and a thin spot under the handguard. You gotta admit... that is also pretty thin in the personal experience department.

And please, let's not forget the lie you told in this thread where you falsely claimed jOe apologized to you for making that statement you are still seething about:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=522637&page=1

I'm sure that these observation will elicit a response that I have acid in my soul,or "have brought reproach to the name of Jesus",or that I must also be suffering from past hurts, anger, and hostility. I might even get some Bible verse directed toward me or a Quote from St. Ambrose. But your repeated reference to your "Long Weekend" mission trips seems to show who really is consumed with lingering hate and hostility. For most of us though, a trip to Guatemala of under 5 days including travel time is little more than a long weekend... not the picture of some deadly dangerous medical mission trip you had painted for us in your "DOWN ONE" personal attack thread on me, James M., and Dave K.

And it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see that Argo44 was openly calling jOe Poor White Trash:



This is coming from one of our most hypocritical arbiters of civility and forum decorum. These folks actually expect to engage in this sort of verbiage, but to never have the same crap come back at them. If I was jOe, I'd QUOTE it in his precious Reilly thread because this is all one forum, and his thread is no more special than this thread... which was supposed to be about a blown up gun. And if you point it out, tell the truth about it, or QUOTE them verbatim, then you become the enemy and are personally responsible for driving good folks away from this forum. Then the whining and crying for censorship and banning starts again. Judging by the many PM's I received in the past week, people are starting to understand this. You guys have made bullshit and hypocrisy into an Olympic event and an art form!

Careless honing or back boring. I'll be willing to bet it didn't leave Brescia that way. Perazzi purposely bursts one out of every fifty barrels with hydraulic pressure to see where they fail. I once watched a video of them doing so. I guess anything is possible, but the odds are very high that it was monkeyed with after it was built, IMO.

SRH

Is it possible that the Perazzi barrel was a carrier barrel meant for skeet tubes?
Karl

Probably possible, if carrier barrels are actually chambered. Never been around a set to know, but would assume they are.

Good thought, Karl.

SRH

Stan,
My thought was that carrier barrels are chambered to accept skeet tubes which normally go into standard barrels. The carrier barrels were designed to reduce the weight that regular barrels would have with added tubes. I believe that Krieghoff as well as Perazzi made them.
Karl

Here's the original Perazzi blow out thread
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/perazzi-barrel-blew-up.433985/

The seller had not revealed the previous barrel work to the buyer.

Without going through pages and pages of internet hawg wash what was the final word.

RE Carrier barrels. I have a set for K-80. The carrier barrels are usually made by those who make the tubes, i.e., Kolar or Briley (that is, they take a set of original barrels and bore them out). They situate a small pin such that the chamber cannot accept a 12 ga shell.

Our credibility is established by who we are, which Keith cowardly refuses to reveal, and by what we’ve accomplished. These establish mine:
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home
http://www.picturetrail.com/revdocdrew
“Damascus Mythology & Reality”, The Double Gun Journal, Vol. 27, Issue 2, 2016
“A Blow-Up Post-Mortem”, The Double Gun Journal, Vol. 27, Issue 3, 2016

Keith, you were successful in getting to me with your criticism of our ministry. It is not what I do but what I am. That you should presume to understand anything about the physical or spiritual risks thereof is a stunning illustration of your blind hatred and narcissism.
1. In 1999 on my first trip to Honduras, the local missionary almost died from an anaphylactic reaction to the iv antibiotic I was injecting.
2. In 2000 one of my best friends could have died from an acute abdomen, when we were 5 hours from Tegucigalpa, but I believe he was miraculously healed.
3. In 2001 we were divinely protected when 2 guys with AK47s came to town to rob us.
4. In 2010 we were stranded in Guatemala by Tropical Storm Agatha and the eruption of Mt. Pacaya
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/23270158
5. We’ve had lots of “close calls” traveling on bad roads.
6. And lots of up-close and personal Satanic encounters.
7. And lots of medical problems related to the trips. Mine don’t matter. After one trip, a team member converted her PPD (confirming exposure to TB) and had to take a year of INH.
But we’re still going (28 trips to date, some short, some longer) and know that God is good and I believe has been glorified by our faithfulness.

So Keith, you may carry on to your black heart’s content. Most hateful people, like Frank (who has been proven to be a liar), hate themselves, but some are just filled with hatred. I’ve never had you on “Ignore” and never complained to Dave, and I will continue to contribute to threads as I am able. I might however take a break when I can’t take the stench coming out of the computer monitor anymore.

You are not going to win this one, because I will no longer play. Unilateral detente is back on, and I will outlast you.

Drew, there is obviously something wrong with you. You continue to call jOe a liar because he posted some information that was 100% correct when you yourself gave it to him, but the true and accurate facts later changed when you were gifted one ratty OE grade L.C. Smith with thin and pitted Damascus barrels. So now you have the pathetic need to try to tar him as a liar for all eternity. That's some real nice forgiving Christian behavior there Pastor! On the other hand, I provided links that showed you had indeed been caught in multiple lies, which you still refuse to acknowledge. That is what is so amusing about all of this to me. Almost as amusing as links to your copy-and-paste research, which seemed somewhat impressive until jOe revealed that you had very little practical Damascus experience.

You act like a cat trying to cover up turds on a marble floor. And your tales of woe and danger encountered in your mission trips are just more of that pathetic behavior. I don't give a fat rats ass about your cases of diarrhea or traveling on bad roads. We all see more than enough photos of Central Americans on TV as they try to illegally enter our country, and don't need to see them here too. I actually do believe that someone as intentionally deceptive as you might have a number of personal Satanic encounters though... like maybe a pat on the back for a job well done.

However, none of it has anything to do with the topic of this thread or double shotguns. None of those grave dangers you listed by number are very impressive to me. Did I ever tell you about the time my co-workers and I were robbed at gunpoint while managing a restaurant when I was in college? Did I ever tell you about co-workers who actually got killed and maimed in industrial accidents? Answer: No, because I don't have your sick and sad need for validation. We all experience sickness, tragedy, danger, and death. A trip of less than 5 days including travel time to Central America is still little more than a long weekend. You were the one who attempted to portray it as something else entirely in order to justify a personal attack with "eternal significance" on me, Jim, and Dave K. That was simply more intentional deception, in my opinion. Take it somewhere else and tell someone who cares.

I never once said you had me on IGNORE. I don't know where that comes from. I made the mistake once of saying I thought Bob Cash had me on IGNORE. I apologized when he informed me that I was mistaken, but that sick little turd seized upon my mistake and ever since then he calls me lying keith because that error is all he has to attack my veracity.

It is also amusing and revealing that you consider any accurate observations about you to be the result of a black heart and a hate filled soul. But you totally ignore your own personal attacks and false assertions. And you have the nerve to call me a narcissist? I'm not trying to win anything here. I'm just countering your horseshit and hypocrisy... once again... in spite of concerted and organized attempts to censor me.

That's sums it up in few words...

I don't know any of you guys or how this shit started, but, good grief,let it go. Just stick to the subject. If i want to hear this kind of crap I'll watch cnn or msnbc

I would be interested in hearing what David thinks what happened. I would think a stuck wad obstruction from the RST shells.

I will venture a guess "IF" we do get confirmation as to the cause since it blew within 2 inches of the muzzle it will be some form of obstruction.

I'm a risk-taker, Miller. I'd say it's a certainty.

Getting back to the topic of the blown Purdey barrel, David Trevallion said today (01 Mar 2019) that he has had the rib put back in place and will take two inches off the barrel, turning it into a 28" gun. He had restocked it....really had rescued this 1877 gun from a spare parts bin....replacing both hammers with old Purdey hammers he had around. He also said he and his partners had concluded that the blow-out was cause by a barrel blockage. The gun was being shot with low pressure RST shells, with a single plastic cap, unlikely to have become stuck...so he believes the blow-out was caused by snow in the barrel...there was a heavy snow on the ground at the time.

David said he has about 10 barrels in his house which have been blown, everything from the Purdey to Parkers. I told him how valuable a research tool those would be if they were photographed and analyzed. He may write an article (but I got the impression it would not be soon).

Poor lil frAnkie appears to be butt hurt this morning. Upset because Dr. Dew caught you in in a lie? again.

Lordy lordy....wanna talk about "proven" now dOc.

I agree with damascus, and would say that if the chambers were not lengthened and the barrels not honed, then someone probably used 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2" chamber.