There have been numerous recent posts about the "slow selling" of classic SxS's. This morning, on GUNBROKER, there were 121 sale listings of LEFEVER SxS's, with only 5 bids. I found that a bit surprising.
Wonder why that is the case? My guess- the "older breed" of gentleman gunners is "fading away"- If this is so, perhaps another barometer of this would be a measurable drop in attendance at SxS clays events for 2019- as compared to past years-- Just wonderin'-- I don't have any SxS shotguns for sale. nor any M12's for that matter5, so I guess I don't have any "dogs in the fight"-- RWTF
Lots of all types of guns on GB never receive bids. I sell SxSs on Guns International. If you have what folks want and price it correctly they sell.
Almost all guns which sell on GunBroker seem to start out low and have no reserve. Others, listed at retail prices never seem to get sold. But it’s hard for many to just list a gun at a dollar with no reserve and hope it sells for what you think it should. Low grade doubles are very much a hit or miss thing. Shooters can be found for reasonable prices unless you are the seller in which case they all go for too little.
I’ve sold about a hundred guns with Gunrunner.com and been both happy and dismayed at prices sometimes. But over all they have done well and half of selling right is buying right. Or just buying years ago when prices seemed lower. As an investment guns suck. As toys you get to enjoy they have been fine.
Lately I’ve been buying more pump guns than doubles. There are a fair number of different pump gun designs, many long forgotten, that are interesting to compare how they evolved and I get to shoot most of them as a extra benefit.
Agree- I own and shoot 7 Model 12's-- dating from 1921 to 1949 in Mfg. About the only one I seldom shoot now-a-days in the 1948 era Pigeon Grade M12 Trap-- old milled style rib- feather crotch walnut stock- 30" Full. Back when I had a fair average at 16 yards, it got used weekly, maybe except in the Winter-- I even shot a round of "Full choked Skeet" with it and got a 22/25-- when I hit a clay at skeet range, it looked like a can of pepper exploding-
By the way- we "invented Full Choke Skeet" just for fun- exceptions from std. skeet- we didn't use station 8- instead we shot a set of doubles from no. 4 station- and back then, you shot all single first, then went around again to shoot doubles at 1 & 2 pegs, ditto 7 & 8 pegs-- this was waaay before SC came along.
But I have sensed, at area gun shows, a real softness in the Model 12 market here in the Midwest. Cabela's, and wisely so, will NOT buy any repeating shotguns, even pigeon grade M12's, regardless of gauge, if they have Cutts or Poly-chokes, even if factory installed. IMO, they are real "dogs" on the market today--most likely due to the usuage of screw-in choke tube systems--
I've sold a number of handguns on Gunbroker, all with a $0.01 starting price and no reserve and, at least so far, I've not been unhappy with the amounts realized. I'm debating trying to sell some sxs (an AYA 4/53 28 gauge: a Winchester Model 21 12 gauge with splinter, DT and ejectors; and a Ferlib 12 gauge BLE), but am concerned with the lack of action on such guns on the site. For stuff that draws less attention, I think Mark is correct - put it up on Gunsinternational and price it right.
Rem
Here we go again! I just looked at the Lefever listings on Gunbroker, as I do almost every day, and there are actually 158 active listings.
The situation has changed very little in over 15 years, with the exception that Lefevers were undervalued then, and sold for much more reasonable prices then versus now. But I found a great deal on a Lefever on Gunbroker very recently, and bought it.
Most of the active listings are for guns with ridiculously high reserves or starting bids. A lot of these 158 active listings are for reprints of old catalogs or brochures. Many are for Nitro Specials which are a Lefever in name only. There are a bunch of stripped Nitro Special actions which will never sell, and will be relisted over and over. But even the lower grade Syracuse Lefevers that actually sell are selling for two to three times what a gun in equal condition sold for 15 years ago.
The sky is not falling. But people who bought into certain collector manias 10 or 15 years ago are in the red now. Those who are now paying $5000.00 and more for Colt Pythons could be in a similar boat 10 years from now. Or not.
So should I sell my Pythons now or later? Always the question. Two nib examples, in the safe, will not cost me anymore for the next decade. My kids don’t want them yet but that might change. I don’t see the need to sell things now hoping to be a later price decrease. You can’t guess what is going to happen with certainty. If you like your stuff keep it. If your tired of it and want to move on then sell it. If you get your money all back, then you broke even which is more than a lot of investments can say. But when I bought them there were selling for a lot less than today but they were not cheap even back then.
So should I sell my Pythons now or later? Always the question. Two nib examples, in the safe, will not cost me anymore for the next decade. My kids don’t want them yet but that might change. I don’t see the need to sell things now hoping to be a later price decrease. You can’t guess what is going to happen with certainty. If you like your stuff keep it. If your tired of it and want to move on then sell it. If you get your money all back, then you broke even which is more than a lot of investments can say. But when I bought them there were selling for a lot less than today but they were not cheap even back then.
Are they selling for more today than a Dow Index Fund, bought then would sell for now, or some other measure of what you could have bought.
I don't buy guns for investment purposes. I doubt very many here do. But I enjoy the fact that I can usually sell them without a loss most of the time and often with a little profit that might keep up with inflation in most cases. So, guns, unlike bicycles or golf clubs, are really just another form of cash more or less.
You made that donation yet Freddy ?
Who is this guy, Freddy, Frank?
Keep up your incredible good work. I am certain you will be rewarded one day for all your efforts.
Freddy the forum free loading BrentD...
If a nice condition 16 gauge Syracuse Lefever shows up at auction y’all are going to have competition from me. Just about every Lefever on GB is either junk or a Nitro Special. But a few years ago on GB I did buy a near mint 20 gauge GE Lefever at a fair price but not a giveaway. It’s in such high original condition it’s mostly a safe queen.
Someday, I too would like to have a nice Syracuse Lefever. The Lefevers I see around here almost always total junk and Nitros.
Joe,
Maybe you could start a new thread with just a few nice photos of your Lefever 20 (actually, I don't think I've ever seen a 20, even in bad condition), and we could just see where it goes. It would be nice to see a really nice one up close, even if only photos.
I'd like to see pics of a high condition (mint) Lefever 20, too.
SRH
I'd hope Joe Wood doesn't accommodate the request of a guy like BrentD who is running a campaign to financially damage this forum. He could always PM pics to Stan.
I don't normally try to participate in conversations above my pay grade, but I'll offer my 2 cents here.
There's a thread here that explores the reasons folks got into SXS shotguns. A recurring theme is that the interest occurred early on and usually from a gift or the use of a double gun. WE, double gun enthusiasts, need to make a practice of gifting doubles to those we are bringing up.
Now, I am guilty of NOT doing that very thing. My boys used my doubles, but when It came time to give them a shotgun, damn if I didn't give them a Rem 870...
If I'd been thinking ahead, that gift would have been a SXS and they'd have burned up those thousands of red shotgun shells in a good double gun instead of three at a time through a plastic stocked pump. The 870s accomplished the task at hand, which was a new shotgun, but it ignored the larger picture of the lasting effect. I had full run of nearly any kind of shotgun I wanted to shoot when I was growing up. When my dad gave me my double, that was it. It was my gun and I loved it. A lifelong obsession began.
I won't make that mistake with my grandson.
Guys like us, like them, buy them, look at them, clean them, put them away....
Youngsters use the heck out of them in order to become like us.
Want to see double gun sales go up? Start giving them away to young hunters. They can't help but fall in love with them.
Alan
Alan,
You are a smart guy. I come from a family where the culture was always "New". There is no soul in new.
I think you are right.
Nothing wrong with a "New" SXS!
Alan
Perhaps. Though I find them a bit cold. And most new SxS cost a bundle or they were really heavy clunkers. When I was a kid, I don't know what was available in the new market. 1970 + or -?
But I think I would have appreciated an old gun even then.
There are some really nice, affordable S x Ss available today. I'm enjoying a couple of them.
SRH
I think there are some that would make great starter guns but probably a bit more expensive than an 870. I suspect you are referring to a Dickinson? Maybe a Spanish gun or two in there at only 2x the price of an 870. Maybe.
The Ithaca/SKB's were in that crowd too, I think. I have a pair now, but back then, I suspect they were not priced with the 870s either.
but I do agree, gifting doubles would be a great thing to do. I have gifted one of my old .22 rifles to a guy I didn't even know. It was for his daughter. I wonder how that worked out?
If you give a kid a gun, it will be the greatest gun EVER!
Alan
One of my biggest regrets is that I once passed on a near mint Syracuse Lefever 20 gauge DS. I had just shortly previously bought my first Lefever, a 12 gauge FE. I didn't at the time know a lot about them & was not aware that the Vast Majority of the 20s were made in the DS grade. This one was priced at about double what I had given for my FE & at that point, I thought it was simply Too High priced. Perhaps it was, but I have not yet found its equal at anywhere near an affordable price (For Me). Those of you who have a Lefever 20 in any higher grade than the DS, Cherish it, there's not many of them out there.
I am using this lull in the SxS market place to my advantage as I add to my collection after a many year break. I have had traders accept offers of 1/3 off of guns. I don't know if they will continue lower--I don't really worry about it.
I know 60's muscle cars are getting pretty beat up price wise. I have always heard that when the stock market is doing well collector markets will suffer as the "hide out" money goes to "real" investing.