E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun

Posted by: Argo44

E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/04/19 08:25 PM

This gun is being advertised by Steve Barnett.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101169022

Nitro proofed, 30" Damascus bels, 2 1/2" chambers. 32 thou minimums walls, double trigger, extractor, 6 lbs 12 oz. Those devices behind the hammers look like old muzzle loader cap flash protectors? Any idea what they are? There is no SN...I've asked but have received no response...does Steve usually respond to queries?. As far as I know I've never seen this particular gun before.







Posted by: SKB

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/04/19 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Argo44
Those devices behind the hammers look like old muzzle loader cap flash protectors? Any idea what they are?


The fancy shape in front of the hammers and behind the firing pins are typically called "percussion style fences"
Posted by: HomelessjOe

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/04/19 10:45 PM

Heck of a deal on a $2500.00 gun.
Posted by: susjwp

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 07:19 AM

My experience has been that he does respond to questions but may be away. Nice gun. Good luck if you decide to purchase.
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 07:25 AM

Yeah, I think you have to make an appointment or similar.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: Stan

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 07:31 AM

Just a question here from someone still learning about English guns. What would the significance be today, for a potential buyer, of nitro proofs, with 2 1/2" chambers? Would the buyer be willing to shoot heavier loads in it if it had nitro proofs? I would think not. Was there a difference between the payloads of BP proof and NP ?

I was told by Cyril Adams, when I began my search for an English or Prussian hammer pigeon gun, to look for heavy nitro proofs ................ 1 1/4 oz. or higher. I could understand that, for someone wanting to shoot 1 1/4 oz. loads.

Just "axxing".

SRH
Posted by: HomelessjOe

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 08:58 AM

No significance at all....just means she swallowed a couple of hard pills and survived.

I'd say the reproof came when she was tarted up for sale.

I believe for a gun to be sold in England it has to have a current proof.

My guess is the high asking price is including the cost of tarting.

Just speculations...
Posted by: SKB

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 09:18 AM

Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
No significance at all....just means she swallowed a couple if hard pills and survived.

I'd say the reproof came when she was tarted up for sale.

I believe for a gun to be sold in England it has to have a current proof.

My guess is the high asking price is including the cost of tarting.

Just speculations...




Not quite Frank. A gun can be sold in the UK without "current proof" but it must remain in proof. The bores can not exceed the maximum diameter at last proof, no matter when that proof was done. An older gun that is in proof does not need to be re-submitted for current proof standards.
Posted by: KY Jon

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 10:44 AM

SKB is right. And all the guns that may be out of proof, there will be no seller in GB who wants to sell you one because the risk to him is too great. They donít even want to export any out of proof gun.

Thatís a nice looking gun but seems to be on the high end on price. For that Iíd want th barrels to ge in pristine condition, not on the thin side of half worn out.
Posted by: Argo44

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 12:09 PM

The price seems high for a 12 ga shotgun though it looks great. As you all know I keep track of Reilly's. I've seen Reilly shotguns offered for very high prices in Europe and America. But the average for a gun of that quality would seem to be between $3,00-$4,000. Reilly's are shooting guns.

Just for comparison (and this may be comparing apples and oranges here), here are some of Terry Buffum's Reilly hammer guns sold over the past three years at Amoskeog. I felt the prices they sold for were pretty moderate. I said at the time (Spring 2016) that there were going to be some happy shooters buying those guns and the prices they sold at proved me right. It was one of the things that attracted me to the brand - you could get a really nice looking, great handling gun for an affordable price.

13033,($1,955); 14285 ($1.035); 15283 ($1,610); 17391 ($):


17392 ($2,185); 18550 ($):


17496 ($1,725); 21883 ($1,380); 24354 ($):


25460 ($); 26517 ($1,265); 26537 ($2,060):
Posted by: Remington40x

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 01:14 PM

It's a stunning gun, but at that price you'll need to plan on owning it forever unless you're willing to take a substantial hit when you sell it. There are guns for which I say "So what?" to that, as I consider them a lifetime purchase. Others I would pass on as I'd like to play with them, but they don't speak to me in the same way.
Posted by: HomelessjOe

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 02:42 PM

Originally Posted By: SKB
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
No significance at all....just means she swallowed a couple if hard pills and survived.

I'd say the reproof came when she was tarted up for sale.

I believe for a gun to be sold in England it has to have a current proof.

My guess is the high asking price is including the cost of tarting.

Just speculations...




Not quite Frank. A gun can be sold in the UK without "current proof" but it must remain in proof. The bores can not exceed the maximum diameter at last proof, no matter when that proof was done. An older gun that is in proof does not need to be re-submitted for current proof standards.


I knew that...but if the bores are honed like this guns then they have to have a current proof before sale.

The fact that they were honed shows in his advertisment of choke.

.002 and .003 choke left over from barrel honing.
Posted by: KY Jon

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 02:56 PM

No, the .002-.003 choke is more likely a deliberate decision to not hone the chokes area when honing the bores. It gives the gun a little choke. If done several times you could end up with a set of barrels with .006-.010 choke if reproofed. Then the barrel with more than .008 choke could be marked as having choke. I saw a nice H &H that had been reproofed which had .006 and .010 choke which was later marked for choke. Seller explained this was odd but most likely reason for it.
Posted by: HomelessjOe

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 03:09 PM

Yea...you saw...he saw and she said.
Posted by: Argo44

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 04:26 PM

I agree with Ky Jon. That choke business was a question mark for me. The closest Reilly this gun comes to in my database is 17392 - a 16 gauge - one of Terry's (see below)
--(note false percussion cap fences)
--(note left-hand side-lever)
--(note Birmingham BP proofs...this gun is odd).

I date 17392 to early 1872. Choke boring as we know it didn't begin until mid 1875. With Birmingham BP original proofs and with IC chokes...17392 had to have been rebarreled by Reilly after choke boring began in earnest. Either that or there was something going on with honing the barrel later that could create an IC choke, something I don't know about.

This is one of the reasons I've asked for the SN on Steve's 12 gauge. I'd like to get a look at the barrel flats as well. There should be no "not for ball" if it too is pre 1875 as I suspect. Steve got back to me...said he'd have his secretary send the SN - he's traveling.

================================================================
17392


http://www.amoskeagauction.com/110/132.php
serial #17392, 16 ga., 28" barrels with bright excellent bores choked improved cylinder in each. This shotgun shows period Birmingham black powder proofs with later London Nitro proofs and modern "70MM, 900 BAR" proofs. The barrels are generally over .030 everywhere except for one spot in one barrel that gets to .027". The action and locks show near full coverage scroll engraving with no makers name appearing on the action or locks. The barrel rib is engraved "E.M. REILLY & CO. NEW OXFORD ST. LONDON" and retains 95% beautifully restored brown finish with strong damascus pattern their entire lengths. The action and locks retain an even grayish patina with rebounding hammers and crisp locks. The checkered straight grip walnut buttstock and forend rate very good plus with a good deal of original finish, perhaps some added light oil and a beautiful toe and heel buttplate with checkered center panel. The shotgun locks up tight and features a 13 3/4" pull with drops of 1 1/2" and 2 1/2". A nice tight sidelever Reilly small bore double that seems like she's ready to go. (17147-143) {C&R} [Terry Buffum Collection] (1500/2500) SOLD FOR $2,185.00



Posted by: susjwp

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 09:46 PM

The hammers in the second photo look a little like those on Lancaster's. Hammer guns, can't have too many.
Posted by: 2-piper

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 10:09 PM

IC choke on an English gun was generally around 0.006" constriction, even ľ choke was only about 0.010" constriction. Since these are given as diameters only 0.003"-0.005" is removed from the actual wall thickness. "IF" there was ample wall thickness it would have been no big deal to have reamed the barrel a bit oversize leaving an IC choke at the muzzle.

I would not really see anything to arouse my suspicions it was re-barreled rather than just re-bored & re-proofed.
Posted by: Argo44

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 10:15 PM

Thanks Miller, I sort of thought that after Ky Jon educated me and I suddenly recalled the details about 17392. But, then re-reading the description, I got worried about the Birmingham proofed barrels. Serial numbered Reillys almost always (always?) had London proofed barrels. I think you and Ky Jon are correct about both guns....the 12 gauge Reilly with Steve Barnett was originally cylinder bore and was pre 1875 (we'll find out when we get the SN)...the honing left a slight choke on the barrel.... And the same can be said for Terry Buffum's 17392. - Now how to account for the Birmingham BP proof...?
Posted by: HomelessjOe

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/05/19 11:39 PM

Originally Posted By: 2-piper
IC choke on an English gun was generally around 0.006" constriction, even ľ choke was only about 0.010" constriction. Since these are given as diameters only 0.003"-0.005" is removed from the actual wall thickness. "IF" there was ample wall thickness it would have been no big deal to have reamed the barrel a bit oversize leaving an IC choke at the muzzle.


Not much doubt in my mind it's had a hone job most likely to remove pits and they stayed away from the muzzle ends as to not make them too thin and just ended up with a whisper of choke.


Posted by: Argo44

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 03/06/19 10:36 AM

SN is 20164, which would date to Spring 1877. I've asked Malinda, Steve's secretary if she could forward pictures of the barrel flats and the address on the rib.
Posted by: Argo44

Re: E.M Reilly Side-Lever Hammer gun - 11/20/19 08:55 PM

Just noticed the price on Steve Barnett is down to $3,950. If it falls another $1,000...nah, I don't need another 12...unless it's the pair to my 27853. Still...nice gun.