I know that this has been answered in a scattered way throughout the forum, but I am about to jump into the reloading game and I'm trying to get some ideas for where best to start (before I buy powder, hulls, etc).
Would you all be willing to share your favorite recipes for low pressure loads or your 'go-to' source for data?
I'm specifically interested in low pressure field/upland loads in 2 1/2 inch and 2 3/4 inch for 12 gauge. I'm also looking for low pressure 16 gauge 2 3/4 loads (I've asked to join the 16gauge.com group).
I'll be primarily hunting over a dog for woodcock, quail, and occasionally pheasants.
To make this as useful as possible for a wider audience, feel free to share any gauge or load with which you are particularly pleased.
Thanks in advance.
I no longer reload but when I did my favorite low pressure load was from Claybuster Wad's website:
http://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/remington-style/10http://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/remington-style/11My favorite 1 oz Fed 209A, 18 grains Red Dot (or Promo) - I used this load in 2 3/4 inch hulls for both 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 inch guns.
My favorite 1 1/8 oz Fed 209A, 17.5 grains Red Dot (or Promo) - I only used this load in 2 3/4 inch guns.
Hodgdon powder and Alliant website. Printed manuals were nice but they no longer seem to be published. Too easy to get information on line. I still like printed because the on line stuff seems to get replaced and no longer pops up on the web.
I have kept reloading records of what I’ve used for 40 years. A lot of out of date stuff but also a lot that stuff which I can still use. So once you find a load write it down for future use because the information may not show up next time you search for it.
How did you find those loads Flychamps? I went to the site and cannot find it.
I concur in the recommendation of the Hogdon and Alliant web sites. Hogdon has some nice low pressure Clays loads for 2-3/4 inch shells using Winchester AA hulls and wads, Claybuster or AA wads and either 7/8 or 1 ounce of shot. I use these loads consistently in my British and Italian sxs. I can't help you with the 2-1/2 inch 12 data (although I'd like to find some as well) and you're already pursuing the best source for 16 gauge data of which I'm aware.
How did you find those loads Flychamps? I went to the site and cannot find it.
The links in my post above are directly to the load data - just look down the data sheet until you find Fed 209A, Red Dot and 18 grains. The velocity is listed as 1200 and the pressure is 6550.
On Claybuster's website the links "load data" to the loading data are in the description of the wad for the CB6100-12 and CB6118-12.
I only load low pressure loads, now. Plus, .410 "specialty stuff".
My two powders for low pressure 12 ga. loads are Solo 1000 for 1 oz. (clays} , and 7625 for 1 1/4 oz. bismuth (duck loads).
Good luck with your new venture. It can really pay off in $$$ with low pressure, and for .410s.
SRH
Two follow up questions:
- I've read others who say it's ok to use 2 3/4 loads in 2 1/2 inch shells, just with modified wads. What do you all think?
- do any of you load fiber wads? Am I right to think it is a little more finicky in terms of getting a good seal, etc?
The issue with using 2 3/4" hulls in a gun with 2 1/2" chambers isn't the wad. It's the pressure that the load in question produces. Unless you've got a gun which has not only short chambers but also short and sharply tapered forcing cones (mostly pre-1900 manufacture), the longer hull itself will only increase pressure by a few hundred psi when fired in a short chamber. The trick, therefore, is to work up loads that produce far lower pressures than those for which the gun was designed. That gives you enough safety margin to reload standard American 2 3/4" hulls and shoot them in vintage guns with short chambers.
In my earliest days of reloading, I loaded a good number of shells with card & filler wads. I personally do not recommend them for use in a gun having much of an overbore or a long forcing cone as there could be a problem with gas seal. This is normally not a problem with the plastic obturating wads.
Not a new idea, but there is a very easy and inexpensive way to reload for 2 1/2" chambers using 2 3/4" hulls, and cutting away part of the end of the crimped area of the hull. You load the same load as you would in the 2 3/4" hull, before cutting it down, being cognizant of the requisite pressures for the gun in question, but you add an undersized overshot card wad and crimp the remaining part of the hull down over the edge of the OS wad. This came to be known as the Hartin Crimp, because it was developed by a member here many years ago by that last name.
With hulls that have not been loaded lots of times, in which the plastic retains a good memory, the remaining part of the crimp holds the OS wad in place perfectly, and you end up with a shell that, when fired does not exceed the chamber length. Looks a little funky, but there seems to be enough remaining crimp to help the powder burn properly, and I've never had a problem with shot leakage. Easy, peasy.
I agree with the data Bell published about firing 2 3/4" shells in shorter chambers, but this is an alternative for someone who does not wish to do that, and also doesn't wish to modify a press for 2 1/2" shells.
A search here using "Hartin" will bring up much discussion and description, with commentary by the originator, Nitrah.
SRH
I use Ballistic Products "Advantage" reloading book for my 2 1/2" loads, they have a pretty good selection but a lot are for now discontinued powders such as PB, I stocked up when it was discontinued for my ITX and Bismuth loads. My "Advantage" manual is 10 years old so they might have updated it since then.
I do have a MEC 600 set up for 2 1/2" loads in 12 and 16ga and I fold crimp my 2 1/2" target loads and roll crimp my ITX and Bismuth loads.
2 1/2" 12ga target loads I shoot 11/16 oz of 9's on the skeet field over a dose of 700x and 7/8 oz 0f 8's for trap and SC. I was rummaging through my reloading gear and found the 11/16 oz MEC bar and though I'd try it even if it is kind of an odd load, it works well.
2 1/2" 16ga, I shoot 3/4 oz of everything for, lead for clays and ITX for water fowl. I do load a number of 1 oz NP BB's over Longshot for coyote hunting out of my drilling, it has proven to be quite effective.
Almost all of my loads except waterfowl and coyote loads are put up in cut down 2 3/4" Cheddite or Rio target hulls(range pickups)
Waterfowl and coyote loads go in new 2 1/2" hulls.
I just leave my loaders set up for 2 1/2" and shoot those same loads out of my 2 3/4" guns
Hi, here are the recipes I use for my short chamber 12 and 16 gauge guns. Both are too heavy for wookcock, but work very well on pheasants, prairie grouse and huns:
12ga:
2 3/4"Gold Medal Plastic Hull
CB 2118-12 Wad
Win 209 Primer
1 1/8 oz payload
23grns 800-X
1150fps
6500psi
16ga:
2 3/4" Cheddite Hull
SG16 Wad
Cheddite 209 Primer
1 1/8 oz payload
23grns Longshot
1180fps
7000psi
I do use an overshot card, just crimps better for me.
Never had a problem with these patterning well in my guns or any issues with powder migration, bloopers in cold weather or chewed up hull ends after firing.
Best of luck to you!
Greg
Regarding the 2 1/2 inch loads, I have shot polywad vintager 2 1/2 inch shells out of my 1892 Atkin 12. The barrels are new-- built in 1971, so I suppose I could probably get away with shooting 2 3/4 shells, but I'll likely err on the safe/traditional side and try to load 2 1/2s. The vintagers were outstanding as far as my shoulder and the pheasants could tell.
The other two guns I'll hunt with this year are both AyA: A 4/53 16 gauge 26 inch barrel gun that I'll use primarily for woodcock and quail; and a No 2 12g that I'll use when I don't want to take the Atkin in the field (may be rare).
I'm brand new to reloading, so I'll try to keep it simple for the most part. I've been thinking that one load for each gun to start would be a reasonable way to learn. I have been planning to modify my press for the 2 1/2s/.
I also have an ithica 200e that I may use for waterfowl, in which case I would want to have a non-toxic load as well, and I would load those in 2 3/4.
Thanks to all for the input.
Wad substitutions, to reduce stack height, does allow you to use 2. 3/4 data in 2 1/2 shells but with a little common sense. As the Crush zone in a wad is reduced a little increase in pressure may result. So I figure pressure goes up 500/1000 psi just to be safe. The only load I had tested when substituting a Red AA for a White AA showed less than 200psi increase but always be on the side of caution when loading.
Fiber wads do not seal well in oversized bores or long forcing cones. Vintage doubles often had very short forcing cones and what we think of as tight bores so they work well in thos situations. Unlike plastic wads they don’t flare out to create a seal. Then the shot does not get protected so barrels will get a bit of lead buildup which you will have to remove from time to time.
At some point in time during the overlap of fiber and plastic wads, Lyman made a plastic gas seal to be used in conjunction with the fiber wad. Gil
In those transition days, there were several makes of plastic gas seal wads designed to be used with the fiber filler wads. I do not remember them all but Remington had the H wad, Alcan made one as well As Herters. Alcan also offered a roll-up plastic sleeve to protect against bore scrubbing they called the Quick-cert. The one-piece plastic wad with shotcup displaced them all.
Miller, I misquoted myself. It was Alcan, not Lyman, that made gas seals for their wads...Gil
First off you can still get the small reloading manuals from Alliant and Hodgdons just by calling them. Go to their web site for the phone numbers. I find them much easier to use than their web sites. All my loads are under 8000psi and normally under 7000. With that said 2 3/4" shells are ok to use in 2 1/2" chambers. If you still want to shoot 2 1/2" shells here's a easy trimmer to make :
https://youtu.be/JrULU2fslRE Then all you'll need is a roll crimper from BPI or Precision Reloading [ the PRs are better ]. Find a used Mec 600 and buy a "short kit", also from BPI or PR. If you roll crimp 2 1/2 shells all you've done is cut off a 1/4" of material from the end and a 2 1/2 shell roll crimped uses a 1/4" less material. A short kit won't be necessary in this case. The finished shell fold crimp or roll crimp is the same length. If you're going to fold crimp the 2 1/2 shell then a shorter plastic wad or fiber wads will be necessary. With Clay Busters [ and I've called and ask them about doing this ] just use a wad intended for a larger payload - say one for 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 oz and only put the 7/8 or 1oz load in it. The cushion area is shorter. The fingers may stick up over the shot but will fold over with the crimp. I don't know how well the gas seal was in my Parker hammer gun with .745 bores but I still shot occasionally fiber wads successfully. KY jon had good advice. Here is a load I saved to my email - it may help:
Paul Harm;
Here is a load that I have used. I think you will like it. It has been tested as a 1 oz. load @ 1220 FPS 9,400 PSI. It does cycle my 1100 perfectly. Using the CB0100-16 wad and 1 oz. of shot, that is a nice load also.
Remington 16 ga 2 pc plastic hull
Winchester 209 primer
20.0 grains Unique
CB0078-16
7/8 oz. lead shot.
I wouldn’t hesitate to use 18.0 or 19.0 grains of Unique, if a guy wanted to reduce velocity.
There are many tested loads using 17.0 to 21.0 grains of Unique, with various wads and both 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. payloads, just not the particular wad you are using. Many loads use the WAA16 which is the basis for the CB0100-16 and the CB0078-16. There isn’t one I have tried that wasn’t a nice shooting load.
Maybe bump it down for less pressure. Good luck - Paul
That trimmer looks like a great idea and an easy solution. Thanks for that and the other info.
Jim
Check your PMs. I have the 16 gauge data you need.
Stan, Oskar, and others have pretty much told you how to handle the short loads in the 16 ga. Thanks Stan for the advice on partial cutaway of the hull combined with overshot card. That solves the problem of the black Remington hulls that are too thick below the crimped section to cut them down a full quarter inch without requiring excessive skive. Oskar--you and I usually think alike--I too just leave the short kit in the MEC. But for those who wish to save money, or to customize the length even further--why not just make the spacer for the short kit out of 1/4 inch plywood. You could even play with thicknesses to get it all just right (thinking 2 9/16 shells) by shaving off a bit. As for recipes, they are available from the "load of the week" section on the Ballistic Products website. Enjoy more shooting, friends! Steve