doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: Run With The Fox "A. Greener"?? - 07/10/19 12:24 PM
W.W. Greener, yes- but yesterday, whilst cruising a pawn shoppe/jewelry (Rolex knock-offs) and used guns- saw a 12 Hammer double with damascus barrels= on the lock plates- A. Greener- could NOT read any script of the top rib- the store had covered that area with white tape- so the gun could not be broken open. Owner's wife told me that was store policy-and she was sorry, but that was that--

Anyone here heard of a Limey ginmaker named "A. Greener"-lockwork and hammers looked "cheesy" to my eyes-- RWTF
Posted By: 2-piper Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/10/19 12:37 PM
Odds are about 99.9% that it has Belgian proof marks on it. Most likely a JABC.
Posted By: Mike Harrell Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/10/19 12:57 PM
agree with 2-piper. The Belgians made a lot of knockoff names trying to cash in on the better known makes.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/10/19 01:17 PM
William Sr. did have a son Albert, but he didn't make it. After William Sr's death in 1869, William Wellington took over, Albert went to San Francisco, and another brother, Joseph Henry, went to New Zealand.

Likely by Lambert Dumoulin, and appears to be the victim of after-market punch "tightening" frown
https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/seeking-i......-429074.html
Posted By: 2-piper Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/11/19 03:18 AM
When one sees only one diameter mark on a Belgian proofed gun as this 18.2 mm mark, then I believe that is the bore diameter & not a choke mark. Depending upon the actual date of proof choke bore guns will be found marked Not for Ball, Choke or with bore diameter over choke diameter as in 18.5 / 18.2. In this case, then 18.5 would be the bore diameter & 18.2 the choke diameter.

As this gun carries none of these marks it may well have been cylinder bored in both barrels.
Posted By: Lawrence Kotchek Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/11/19 04:57 PM
I have one, it is a Belgian gun, cheap when new and age hasn't helped - what we would now call a Trademark Infringement.
It is what we call a JABC (Just another Belgian Clunker)
I do have fun saying I have "A Greener" though
Posted By: 2-piper Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/11/19 06:00 PM
Another name commonly encountered among the JABCs is W Richards.
I do have a rather early (pre-1887 proofs) W Richards hammer gun with Birmingham proofs. It is presently in poor condition but appears as originally it was a "Cut Above" the JABCs, but certainly nowhere near the quality of either a Westly Richards nor a William Richards.

A goodly number of these Birmingham W Richards guns have shown up. They are believed to have been made by J P Clabrough, though not one of his better lines.
Posted By: JBLondon Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/11/19 08:36 PM
Originally Posted By: 2-piper
Another name commonly encountered among the JABCs is W Richards.
I do have a rather early (pre-1887 proofs) W Richards hammer gun with Birmingham proofs. It is presently in poor condition but appears as originally it was a "Cut Above" the JABCs, but certainly nowhere near the quality of either a Westly Richards nor a William Richards.

A goodly number of these Birmingham W Richards guns have shown up. They are believed to have been made by J P Clabrough, though not one of his better lines.


Miller, I did not know that about the Clabroughs. Recently bought a W. Richards with Birmingham proofs and assumed it was from William of Liverpool. Its a side lever which is what interested me but going back to vendor. Claimed lockup was tight and no pits. Turns out barrels are like a sewer pipe and action loose as a goose. Confronted, he said "well 3 good peens with a hammer and it's tight again." Yeah, not kidding. He forgot to mention the flecks of paint on the stock in photo were powder post beetle holes.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/11/19 08:52 PM
JB: Does your gun have the little tree? The 1886 catalog from John P. Moore's Sons in New York listed "Clabrough's Make" W. Richards.

Posted By: 2-piper Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/11/19 10:17 PM
My W Richards does not have the little tree. It has some scroll type engraving on the lockplates, top tang, the bottom of frame & trigger guard. It has a straight grip stock with long tang ending in a point. Has a steel butt plate with a spur at the top, It had an escutcheon in forend tip but was missing when I acquired it so do not know what it was.

It is a side lever opener with single underbolt & no rib extension. Both lockplates are marked W Richards & the top rib is marked W Richards London Laminated Steel. I would call it a plain (wire) twist. Both stock & forend are checkered & forend is a snap-on.

It was proofed prior to the chamber mark enclosed in a diamond & has only the bore marking which on this one is 14 though the chamber will take a 12 gauge shell.

If memory serves me correctly with the 1887 proof law the chamber designation was added as well as the in-between gauge marks, as 14/1, etc. This one currently measures just shy of a 13 gauge. "IF" it has ever been honed it shows no sign of it now. I keep it because it was my Grandfathers gun. My dad was born in 1910 & Grandaddy had it as long as he can remember. I do not know if he bought it new or not, but suspect it had some use when he got it.

There is no serial number on it. On the right barrel alongside the forend lug is the letter 3. On the left barrel behind the forend lug down close to the lower rib is what appears could have been O,S though the O is incomplete., could be something else.

I can assure you these guns were built by Neither Westley or William Richards. Everything I have been able to find points to J P Clabrough.
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/12/19 12:35 AM
W.W.Greener in his book ,The Gun, Ninth Edition ,pages 415 & 416 reviews the "Spurious gun and its detection". Albert Greener is specifically mentioned as Spurious.
One of the best books for identifying the source of a gun suspected to be spurious is, "The Golden Age Shotgunning, By. Bob Hinman. Appendix "A"in this book identifies by name/ source most of the guns made/ imported into the U.S.A. circa 1860-1920.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/13/19 09:06 PM
There are real Albert Greener guns out there. The few I've seen are up to WW standards.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/13/19 09:59 PM
Yep; this one marked "Oaklands Club Gun" with nice 3 Iron "Oxford"
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101126185

Nope
https://www.gunauction.com/buy/4839801

Apparently not, but stunning wood
https://www.gunwatch.co.uk/guns/17870-Albert-Greener-BARGAIN-Damascus-Sidelock-non-ejector-for-sale

The IGC Greener information is here, with mention of Albert and Joseph Henry
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=384555&page=all
Posted By: lagopus Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/14/19 03:08 PM
There was an Albert Greener, son of W.W. who worked for his father. Guns were made by Albert and marked as such. He later moved to the U.S. and set up business there. So, could be legitimate or could be a forgery. It needs closed examination. Lagopus…..
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: "A. Greener"?? - 07/15/19 08:06 PM
According To Graham Greener[The Greener Story pages 38-39]Hammer guns made before 1874 engraved," A Greener," or J.H. Greener bear legitimate names. Guns made after 1874 bearing these are Spurious.
Just too many brothers Greener in the gun business for W.W. Greener's liking, one brother decided to immigrate to the U,S.A. the other Joseph Henry, was sent to Australia!
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com