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Posted By: Joe Wood London proof marks before 1813 - 07/18/19 01:55 AM
This is a pic of my late style double flint W.H. Wilson, London 16 bore. The inspection mark of crown over V is there and what appears to be a plain P below what might have been a crown? But not the GP usually found on guns built after 1637. Anyone ideas on what proof rules it fell under? Am I seeing it right? No other proof mark is visible and I don’t believe the barrels have been refinished.

Posted By: Argo44 Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/19/19 03:02 PM
Joe, I'm no expert, but doesn't it look like that "P" might actually CP under a crown?

Posted By: 2-piper Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/19/19 09:28 PM
The "CP" mark is actually GP, Gunmakers Proof, which was a mark of the London house.
The mark on Joe's gun does not appear to me to have ever had the entwined GP, just a P. Can't tell from the p[icture if it had a crown over it or not.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/19/19 09:47 PM
Miler, there does appear to be a vague crown above the P.
Posted By: Hugh Lomas Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/19/19 11:24 PM
It is CP as in Company Proof.London proof house is operatd by members of the worhipful company of gunmakers.
Posted By: peevedoff Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/23/19 05:43 AM
Lee Kennett wrote in "A History of Proof Marks, Gun Proof in England" (Gun Digest 1977 Edition, p.161) that "Another variant, and a more baffling one, is the frequent appearance of a crowned P in conjunction with the usual view mark. The theories concerning this mark are many: that it is the result of a defective London die, a mark of a proof house in Liverpool, or in Dublin (where it is known that arms were proved in the 18th century), or possibly the mark of private proof in Birmingham. That it is the mark of proof elsewhere seems plausible, for the London authorities from time to time seized arms bearing other marks."

Markus
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/23/19 11:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Hugh Lomas
It is CP as in Company Proof.London proof house is operatd by members of the worhipful company of gunmakers.


I disagree, and agree with Miller that the letters in the proof mark in question are indeed GP, based upon the information in Wirnsberger's book The Standard Directory of Proof Marks. On page 99, this is written:

"On 14 March 1637, the gunsmiths banded together and founded the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London. this name has been retained to this day, .................

It was at this time that the Crown over GP was first used and to this day, this is the mark of the London proof house..............

In the year 1670 the charter was confirmed and the power of the organization was extended. The Crown over GP was retained and yet another proof was added - the inspection after proof - and this was marked with Crown over V."



That is a direct quote from the book. There is no mention in the book of any English proof mark containing a CP, that I can find.


SRH
Posted By: 300846 Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/23/19 11:44 AM
That (GP) is confirmed by the London Proof House website : https://www.gunmakers.org.uk/the-proof-house/
Posted By: 2-piper Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/23/19 02:04 PM
Thanks, Stan & 300846 for the conformation on the GP. That is the way I have always heard it stated as well. I do have a copy of Wirnsberger's book, just had not gotten it out. If you look at the mark itself though it is rather easy to see how the two letters intertwine to form both the G & the P which as I stated in my post stand for Gunmaker's Proof.

What would a C represent?
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/23/19 02:26 PM
Originally Posted By: peevedoff
Lee Kennett wrote in "A History of Proof Marks, Gun Proof in England" (Gun Digest 1977 Edition, p.161) that "Another variant, and a more baffling one, is the frequent appearance of a crowned P in conjunction with the usual view mark. The theories concerning this mark are many: that it is the result of a defective London die, a mark of a proof house in Liverpool, or in Dublin (where it is known that arms were proved in the 18th century), or possibly the mark of private proof in Birmingham. That it is the mark of proof elsewhere seems plausible, for the London authorities from time to time seized arms bearing other marks."

Markus


Good find!, Marcus. I think you’ve unraveled a good part of the mystery. I have not seen any other reference to the plain P mark.

The only difference from your Gun Digest quote is my gun’s view proof is from the London proof house.
Posted By: peevedoff Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/23/19 03:54 PM
Thanks Joe,

Googling around the modern opinion appears to be that the crowned P is a pre-1813 Birmingham proof mark:

E.g. Brian Godwin & John Evans write in "English Provincial Makers’ Marks, New Thoughts on Gun Barrel Markings of 18th and 19th Century British Firearms" that

(p.4)
Quote:
Further examples of early English provincial marks are recorded in Neal & Back’s book “Great British Gunmakers 1540-1740”. They include a pair of pistols stamped with oval marks, crowned P & V and a makers’ mark, by Cornforth c1715, p.389 and a pair with similar marks by D. Newton c1715, pp.380-2. Several firearms by Thomas Richards dated between 1749 & 50 are shown in the companion volume “Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790”, pp.119-120, bearing the crowned P & V and his own T.R mark.
As the 18th century progressed, private proof marks became more common. The usual marks are a crowned P and V contained within an oval (occasionally without the crown). Their similarityto the proof marks of the London Gunmakers Company suggests that this was an attempt to demonstrate that their barrels were properly constructed and proof tested and thus just as good as the London product. The London gunmakers objected most strongly to this practice and confiscated any examples found in the city and its environs as well as fining the people concerned. In 1717, the Gunmakers Company offered a 5 guinea reward in the London Gazette for information concerning the use of “false or counterfeit stamps in imitation of ye sd company’s mark” (“Dictionary of London Gunmakers 1350-1850”, H.L.Blackmore 1985, p.22)
,

(p.6)
Quote:
The crowned P & V proof marks are generally referred to by collectors and dealers today as “Birmingham private proofs”; this is almost certainly due to the fact that many known Birmingham pieces are found with these marks. Some provincial makers used very similar marks, suggesting that they might either have sent their own barrels to Birmingham for proof or else bought Birmingham made barrels. This became more common after about 1760 and certainly by 1800 all manner of firearms could be ordered from a Birmingham gunmaker, complete with whatever signature was required


Making a special note on London guns with the crowned P

(p.8)
Quote:
Interestingly, the barrels of several guns signed by well-known London makers are stamped with the crowned P & V mark described above; for example on a fine sporting gun by John Harman c1730 (see “John Harman c1693- c1760”, 18th Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue 2001); also on a silver mounted cannon barrelled pistol by Joseph Clarkson Jnr., c1765 (private collection) and the pistol illustrated in Figure 16 signed Turvey, London, c1775. No explanation for this anomaly has been found.


Markus
Posted By: Hugh Lomas Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/25/19 03:22 PM
Stan,Two Piper et al, thank you, I stand corrected!Excellent cites on your sources.Now I've got to figure out where I got my mis-information from.It may be a trade colloquialism.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: London proof marks before 1813 - 07/25/19 04:13 PM
Still at it in 1854

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