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Posted By: Eighteenninety Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 04:02 AM
Just snagged a W and P double 12 bore. From what I can see and compare to the charts I've round on various posts here it was proofed before 1904 at Birmingham and then again post 2005.

Its been elsewhere though - one mark I cannot find reference here for London or Birmingham is a "R" with a crown above it and also there is a "12-70" on the flats. Any ideas?

I can't post photos unfortunately as I don't have any web hosting for them but it is a thing of beauty. Seems that serial records aren't available but I was told it was pre 1897.

It also has a 14/1 and a 13 on the barrels. not sure what this signifies as this is my first double - any information gratefully accepted
Posted By: Blue Grouse Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 04:49 AM
Welcome to the wonderful world of British doubles!
Those are still British proof marks. The crown with the R is a reproof mark and when it was reproofed, it measured as a 12 gauge with 70mm (2 3/4") chambers.
The 14/1 indicates that one bore measured (9" from the breech) between .701" - .709" when it was originally proofed.
The 13 indicates that the other bore measured (again, 9" from the breech) between .710" - .718" when it was originally proofed.
From this info, you can determine how much material has been removed from the barrels if you are able to measure the internal barrel diameters. This will not tell you what the wall thickness is, which is the most important piece of information. Pictures would help a lot. There should be more marks indicating what the bores measured at the time of reproof and they will be metric.
Posted By: battle Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 12:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Eighteenninety
Just snagged a W and P double 12 bore. From what I can see and compare to the charts I've round on various posts here it was proofed before 1904 at Birmingham and then again post 2005.

Its been elsewhere though - one mark I cannot find reference here for London or Birmingham is a "R" with a crown above it and also there is a "12-70" on the flats. Any ideas?

I can't post photos unfortunately as I don't have any web hosting for them but it is a thing of beauty. Seems that serial records aren't available but I was told it was pre 1897.

It also has a 14/1 and a 13 on the barrels. not sure what this signifies as this is my first double - any information gratefully accepted





Posting pics is easy to this site.

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Posted By: Eighteenninety Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 02:23 PM
Thanks I’ll try to get some done today. There is and 18.2 on one barrel and an 18.4 on the other. I assume these are the metric barrel sizes.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 03:05 PM
Yes, the 18.2 & 18.4 are metric bore sizes. These convert to 18.2 = 0.717" & 18.4 = 0.724". These would have been put on at the re-proof.
Note also on the original proof the in-between sizes, as the 14/1 were not used prior to 1887 so this gun should date to between 1887-1904.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 03:41 PM
William & Powell were real gunmakers, not the more common retailers of others work. Overall the quality of their products is quite high and they made a significant number of guns. One of their more significant patents was what they called their “Simplex” action. In it the locking system was similar to the rotary bolt of a LC Smith decades later. Simple and strong and avoided having to pay royalties to Scott for licensing the Purdey bolt.

All records for the company were destroyed by the Luftwaffe in WW2 so no need to even hope.
Posted By: lagopus Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 05:35 PM
Usually pretty nice guns from this maker. This firm now owns the name http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/ but have no records. Williams & Powell, Liverpool are sometimes confused with another maker with a similar name of William Powell, Birmingham. Lagopus…..
Posted By: Eighteenninety Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 06:38 PM
Damned Germans!! i'll try to post some pictures later today following the instructions above.
Posted By: Eighteenninety Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 08:08 PM
Here are some pictures :

[img:left]https://ibb.co/BsChFZy[/img]
[img:left]https://ibb.co/n1G6dVr[/img]
[img:left]https://ibb.co/PYcZ4WQ[/img]
[img:left]https://ibb.co/JQ70LbJ[/img]
[img:left]https://ibb.co/R9VNBwc[/img]
[img:left]https://ibb.co/rfNztnf[/img]
Posted By: skeettx Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 09:29 PM






Posted By: Blue Grouse Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/17/19 10:59 PM
Interesting to note that the original nitro proofs are all on the tubes. Not very common to see that. Common on BP proof but not nitro...
The proof marks on the flats are all modern Birmingham standard proof. There is a date code in the crossed swords indicating the time of the reproof but I don't have the codes in front of me.
The gun is considered in proof if it is within .008" of the metric measurements. .008" = ~ 0.2mm
Posted By: Owenjj3 Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/18/19 12:38 PM
Wow, what a nice gun. That third bite is as stout as I have seen on a shotgun. And the engraving looks very crisp. I’d be interested to know the finished weight.
Posted By: Eighteenninety Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/18/19 03:42 PM
I haven't weighed it but will do. What is the "third bite' referring to please? Bit of a noob at this as its my first double barrel shotgun.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/18/19 06:53 PM
Owen is speaking of what is known as the round Greener styled crossbolt that goes horizontally through the rib extension at the rear of the barrels. Very strong lockup system.
Posted By: crossedchisles Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/18/19 08:34 PM
Good reply from the"Brummie" I have an original guncase trade label in my files(I think my good friend Vic Ventors used it in one of his SSM articals (Crossed Chisels from Purdeys,c 1953)
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/18/19 08:59 PM
Welcome back, Crossedchisles! We need you here!
Posted By: Eighteenninety Re: Williams and Powell - Liverpool - 10/21/19 02:49 AM
Finished weight is 111 oz or 6 pounds and 15 ounces.
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