On this line on Gavin's auction last December 2018, I mentioned I purchased a 16 gauge SxS side lever Reilly with Perks ejectors, crystal indicators, side clips, etc. SN 27553, quite heavy for a 16 at 6 lbs 9 oz...and number 1 of a pair.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=531133&page=1

I also mentioned that Terry Buffum had sold what appeared to be an almost identical gun, number 2 of a pair, but a 12 gauge SN 27854 at Amokeag a couple of years ago.
http://www.amoskeagauction.com/110/133.php

"27553" arrived today after a 10 month odyssey and lo and behold the SN is 27853! It must be the #1 pair to Terry's former gun. (27853 on top, 27854 on bottom):




Any suggestions as to how I might locate the new owner of 27854 - sold I think in Spring 2016? I've sent a message to Amoskeag.

Wow, beautiful side lever. Why so heavy? New barrels that weren't struck down properly?

Well, the ad said (with the side fences and flat rib and 30" steel barrels) that it was built to "pigeon gun specs." Terry says that the Whitworth barrels alone were an indication of quality.

It has an automatic safety and is choked "true cylinder," "1/2" - a combination I like; so I doubt it's a pigeon gun (unless the chokes have been relieved - and since it is "cyl" in right barrel but has "not for ball" - it would seem likely the chokes have been relieved)...16 bores in pigeon shoots were shot from a pace closer to the target than 12 bores in the 1880's I believe. Stan would know more.

I date it to 1886. It still has "Paris" on the rib - explained in the Reilly history (Reilly closed rue Scribe in July 1885). It has been rechambered (I assume) for 2 3/4 (might have been original though?) and reproofed for nitro but still has a legible "not for ball" on the water table. Note the identical specs right down to reproofing for both guns...except for LOP....14" for the 16, 14 5/8" for the 12.


I was going to put a 3/4" pad on the butt...but looking at the pics of Terry's 27854 - no pad, no steel butt plate...I'd better keep it original in case I can track down that other gun. (wonder if this was a husband/wife sort of thing?)

ARGO44,
Food for thought.

Many of the pairs made by William Powell & Son during that era weren't
consecutively numbered.

Could this be the case with the guns you're discussing?

Possibly the two guns are part of a "batch" bought in from the Trade - W&C Scott - either as the finished article or then finished by Reilly?
Good luck with the search for the 12g.

It'd be great to own both. But I'm thinking . . . pairs? Often used for driven shooting. You'd drive a loader nuts trying to keep 16ga and 12ga shells straight.

"mAtched pair" my dAiry'air.

Fooled by the ol'Pigeon gun trick....

"Not for ball" might be a little old for Whitworth steel barrels....

"True Cylinder" wouldn't be marked "Not for ball"....what you got there is a hone jOb with lengthened chambers.

Blued Damascus maybe...get her out in some strong sunlight and get back with me.

I must say 'nice tarted up pAre...

Couldn't happen to a nicer skally'wAg.

Most likely....

Stan is old but he's not that old...just sAying.

Stanley can you make him feel better about getting broke open by a tArted up Scott ?

Good looking gun Gene. I like how it handles as well. Side levers have always appealed to me.

I've e-mailed Amoskeag asking them to forward my email address to the person who bought Terry's 12 bore.

I've never found a Reilly pair without consecutive serial numbers. That said, there are only a few extant Reilly pairs though there are references to others.

This pair did not sell - SN 30375, 30376:


Terry Buffum"s 34221, 34222


The description, and pictures of the two - the 16 bore 27853 and the 12 bore 27854 are so similar that one must assume they went together - perhaps a husband wife team?

"1" from 27853: Note the "round flower panel on top of action." Note the "engraved" "1" inside the fore arm...see below


No picture of the "2" on 27854 but the description is identical:
serial #27854, 12 ga., 30" barrels with bright excellent bores choked full and full. This shotgun is built on a W. & C. Scott crystal indicator action with side clips and with each lock being engraved "E.M. REILLY & CO. / LONDON". The markings on the tops of the barrel are difficult to read but appear to be the E.M. Reilly & Company name and London address on the left barrel and a Paris address on the right barrel. The shotgun was part of a set and is numbered "2" in gold on dolls head rib extension and engraved on interior forend metal. The barrels are Birmingham nitro proofed for 2 3/4" shells with 1 1/16 oz. loads. The minimum wall thickness is generally .0245 with one small area that gets to .023. The action and locks show near full coverage tight English scroll engraving with a nice round flower panel on top of action. The barrels retain about 95% evenly thinning restored blue finish overall. The action and locks show an even gray patina and remain very smooth and free of pitting. The checkered straight grip walnut buttstock and splinter forend rate very good plus as refinished long ago. The gun features a 14 5/8" length of pull over checkered butt and shows drops of 1 1/2" and 2 3/8". The gun locks up tight and points beautifully. A neat crystal indicator sidelever Reilly Ejectorgun. (17147-176) {C&R} [Terry Buffum Collection](1500/2500)

Unfortunately the weight of Terry's 12 bore 27854 is not mentioned in the ad, but I would bet it were 7 lbs 8 oz - the Hurlingham maximum pigeon gun weight adopted for the 1883 season.

There is one interesting hint on the 16 bore 27853; this cartouche is on the lower part of the stock. It appears to be a crest with a woman on it above a crown. One wonders if perhaps the 16 bore was indeed used by the wife?



It looks a lot like a variant of the Clan Urquhart badge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Urquhart

I like the Clan Urquhart Badge, and agree that's what's on the escutcheon...Geo

Super cool stuff!

Totally.


________________________
Wu-Tang Clan

I bet it costs extra for those buggered out of time screws.

I'm wondering if by about 1881 Reilly didn't start sub-contracting for barrels and actions and finishing them in house. In 1881 his military sales revenue streams from Green Bros, Comblain, etc., and possibly his cutlery business (bayonets, etc.) had dried up (though he was still equipping the Yoemanry militia). He was now bringing in guns in pieces from Liege and assembling them. But something led him to begin selling off the rack about 1881...and he jumped his serial numbered production up from about 650 a year where it had been for 15 years...to over 1,000 a year - 3 a day. The Scott actions, Whitworth barrels, coupled with very traditional Reilly stocks and engraving on 27853 and 27854 might be an indicator.

By the way, after reading the motto for Clan Urquhart, pretty sure Frank is not one of them.

Here was the source of the confusion over the Serial Number. 27553 stamped on the water table. 27853 on the barrels...and on the extension behind the trigger guard (you can see the beginning of a 5" there). The SN on the forearm is unclear because the middle number is obscured by a brad: This is not the first time I've seen confusion over contradictory stamps on Reilly....SN 19286 being another (see Reilly line for a post and comment):

Does not the serial number on the action take precedence over any other ?

According to firearms registration here in Australia it does.

The trigger guard & barrels can be swapped but not the action as it is the basis of the gun.

O.M

Moses....good point and I really don't know. But I've seen some strange stuff on Reilly's....here is the post on 19286 where the board sort of decided the numbers on the action applied sort of reinforced by the trigger guard attenuated number (and to my mind the "8" on the action looks cramped and strange)....as opposed to the numbers on the barrels and forearm. Whatever...I'm going with the 27853....majority vote. If I can find 27854 and it has an engraved escutcheon..QED.

===================================Text from the Reilly Line=================================
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=13

Quote: The chat analysis...posted below...while confused like everybody who writes about Reilly by someone's claim (possible Brown?) that Reilly closed rue Scribe in 1872 and reopened it in 1884...results in a spot on conclusion - late 1874 or early 1875. I'll post the conversation here and photos because this is in a way some validation of the dating method and indicates the model is pretty darn accurate.

https://www.internetgunclub.com/archived-forum/posts.php?topicid=1344

I am a new member to this excellent forum and would value some assistance on the aforementioned gun. A little bit of current information;

- 10 bore hammergun, rebounding hammers, breech face in good condition with no pitting; some relatively basic scroll engraving. Table reads "H Walker's 1098 Patent"
- 30 inch Damascus barrels, excellent condition with v minor exterior pitting in some areas. Game/concave rib, wedge and escutcheon fore-end; recently nitro-proofed
- Semi pistol grip stock with original heel plate; some minor marking and one small (1cm) chip out of stock close to action.

Confusingly, the gun has a slight difference in serial numbers; the table reads 19286, the barrels and foreend 19206, the trigger guard 1928 – could the table be a mistaken number? Any help on assessing what the proof marks mean would be most helpful!

Guidance on history, originality and possible value would be greatly appreciated. I would like to use the gun ongoing for ‘fowling so am genuinely keen to find out more. A brief review of the history of Reilly could indicate manufacture between 1869-1872 (due to Paris address), but happy to be proven wrong here.

++++++++++++++response from “Tiger” (hope Lagopus or some of the other UK members known him - the response is excellent)++++++++++++++++++

As far as we know, the Reillys, like most gunmakers, bought the various components and assembled them, or bought almost complete guns "in-the-white", stocked and finished them, and put their name on them. Although this gun has London proof marks, all of it is likely to have been made in Birmingham. Nothing wrong with that, good servicable weapons of better quality than anywhere else in the world for the price. The "Best" quality in a London gun came mainly from the final finishing which added a little to reliability and "feel" but most to beauty / elegance and pride of ownership.

Your gun was a nominal 10 bore but actually measured 11 bore. Lovely damascus barrels bearing the crown over V London View Mark (1637-1954) for preliminary inspection, the crown over bar over GP Provisional Proof Mark (1813-date) to reveal faults before any expensive work was done on the barrels, and the crown over GP London Definitive Proof Mark (1637 to date), all these adding up to Black Powder Proof. The barrel flats have two of these original marks as expected.

The action flats have the expected View mark, and they have the H Walker patent mark for his barrel bolting and safety for drop-down actions patent No 455 of 12 February 1872 ( Use No. 1098 ) .

Of equal importance to the marks are the ones that don't appear e.g. no NOT FOR BALL or CHOKE mark (so see what patterns it throws with various cartridges). The first of these was introduced in 1875, so this and the patent date mean the gun was made definitely not before Feb 72, or after 1875.

It must have been made a couple of years after 1872, say 1874 to early 1875, and we favour the latter because even if the gun was made by a large trade maker, the 1098 use number is quite a large number. You will have noted that neither we nor anyone else really know when the Paris shop closed, we only think it was shortly after 1872.

The gun was re-proved after 2005, we can't read the crossed swords date code and confess to not having the key to these recent codes! The two crowns over SUP are for the Superior Proof Mark for 1200 Bars, 10x76 is 10 bore 76mm chambers; 19.4 is the barrel diameter and crown over BNP is the Birmingham Nitro Proof Mark. Crown over R is the re-proof mark - why it is deemed necessary we don't know!

We think you can take it that the serial number is 19286 and that the engraver was an old man with poor eyesight and and a bad memory. Unlike the other gun we mentioned, we don't think this gun is made up of muddled parts!

I would be interested to know then, if serial No 27554 is a 16g No2 of a matched pair.
After all, a matched pair is a matched pair.
Is it not ?

O.M

True...of course. The problem being that there are no Reilly records. Everything on the Reilly line I've compiled from extant Reilly's and often auction houses don't bother to photograph the important bits of a gun. There are only about 310 plus serial numbered extant Reilly's I've found out of over 33,000+ he numbered plus about 40 guns that Reilly probably built but whose serial numbers were not mentioned in the advertisements. There is little chance that 27554 or 27853 (if that gun is not the above gun) can be found. The list and description of the extant Reilly's is here:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=33

And by the way, I have pictures of them all.

But, you never know...maybe something will turn up. The best hope of confirmation, I would think, would be Terry Buffum's former 27854 and the possibility of an engraved escutcheon. That gun exists and is in the USA.

And Reilly was always a businessman...if someone wanted a "matched pair" 12, 16.....or a threesome...he'd do it. So I'm not sure if there is a real definition of "matched pair" especially since all we have to go on is a "1" and a "2." (I am hoping this is a "matched 4"....with a 28 bore and and 20 gauge to go along with the other two).

My 1872 Boss hammer gun is marked externally with identical serial numbers, but internally a couple of the bits are numbered to a gun 20#’s ahead. All appear absolutely original. It could be a similar situation with the Reilly. It is amazing how many parts EFP emblazoned with a beautiful S/N never to be seen except by a gunsmith.

I've had a lot of discussions with David Trevallion about Reilly numbering systems for their parts. Most gun makers seem to have numbered their various bits...especially hammers....for specific guns, seeing as how they were pretty well hand made by templates. I've never seen a serial numbered Reilly hammer...or any other bit except forearm, action, barrels, and trigger tang.. (edit: 10655 hs serial numbered on the inside of the action plates...not sure anybody else has ever checked).

Reilly's business model emphasized cheapness, speed of delivery but quality. I'm wondering if this "grabbing parts out of a bin" without sweating the extensive numbering systems, was part of his economization of production.

Clear to me you have O'Reilly confused with W.C. Scott & Sons real gunmakers.



The Johnny Cash O'Reilly...one piece at a time.

Proof as clear as a hand in front of ones face....that Reilly was more of a gun farmer than a gun maker.

For the record, Whitworth Grain sheaf trade marks on the barrels:


1883 Hurlingham rules for pigeon shoots allowed 1/2 yard closer to the target for every caliber smaller than 12 bore up to 16...Thus 16 gauge would shoot 2 yards closer to the target than a 12.

If they were essentially the same model (but in different gauges) made for a husband and wife, or perhaps a father and son . . . seems odd to me that the stock dimensions would be the same.

Larry, 16 bore has 14" LOP.......12 bore is 14 5/8" LOP (per Amoskeag). I assume the weights are different. I haven't checked the drops on 27853. They might not be a pair and skepticism is called for...but I'm trying to find that other gun, just in case.

I was going by your comment that the description is identical.

Shot it today for the first time at sporting clays....I could only find one box of 16ga 2 3/4" shells at the range...1 oz, 1300 fps, #8 shot. I had ordered a flat of 1200 fps shells but they haven't arrived. I ran through the box without seeming to have the crap kicked out of me...weight of the gun and balance I supposed. I shot it pretty well for a first time gun and all. Right ejector is not working properly and shells were sometimes hung up. Other than that, a beautiful shooting gun. It was worth every penny.

Argo44,
Earlier in the thread a question was raised about Whitworth Steel barrels
and if they were consistent with the date range of the proof marks. The earliest Whitworth Steel barrels I've located on a Powell gun date to 1881.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the gun.

1300 fps is pretty fast for 1 oz 16ga loads. Most of them run more like 1165 fps. That difference will reduce recoil significantly. So will shooting 7/8 oz reloads--which are much easier to make these days with the availability of wads designed for lighter loads.

Whitworth steel barrels appeared in 1875:

Whitworth fluid compressed steel was invented by Mr. Joseph Whitworth, who we already talked about when discussing polygonal bore rifling and the Whitworth rifle. Mr. Whitworth was the eminent mechanical engineer of his day and came up with a way of producing a stronger cast steel. His process consists of melting a steel ingot into a mold and applying pressure of up to 6 tons/sq. inch to the mold while the steel is in a liquid state. The pressure drives out all the gases and eliminates blowholes in the cast steel. It also increases the density and strength of the steel. According to W.W. Greener's book, The Gun and its Development, with the introduction of choke boring in shotgun barrels, whitworth steel was found very suitable for this process and started replacing damascus barrels, and he mentions in 1875, "Whitworth steel was giving great satisfaction for rifle barrels, a leading London gun-maker adopted it for shotgun barrels." The leading London gun-maker was Purdey & Sons, who used Whitworth steel exclusively for years after that. Use of Whitworth steel for gun-making spread to America as well and well known makers such as Parker, L.C. Smith and Lefevre were making guns using this steel, way into the 1930s.

This DGS line discussed it in 2007...Whitworth patented his compressed steel in 1874; 1st Purdey with Whitworth barrels delivered 1 Jan 1880, ordered 3 years previously.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...&PHPSESSID=

And by the way, the French symbol on Ronchard Cizeron's barrels in late 1890's "Acier Comprime" is directly translated from from the Whitworth patent:


This line: https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=486642&page=6

For the record, I just talked to David Trevallion (Crossed Chisels). He confirms that Purdey made at least one "pair" (#1 and #2 gun) which were 12 and 16 gauge. He also recalls a Purdey "pair" (1 &2) which were 20 and 28 bore.

I've been unsuccessful in getting Amoskeag to put me in contact with the buyer of the Reilly 12 gauge 27854, even to verify that it has the same escutcheon plate engraving.

I can just see the look on my loader's face when I tell him my "pair" is of two different bores.

I have read of shot's going to smaller, lighter guns as they aged. Or a change in quarry.
Or ordering a second identical gun years apart.

Never have seen "pair" stretched quite so far as here.

Well....I suppose they are a "pair," only because they are a number 1 and a number 2 with consecutive serial numbers with identical build characteristics (but not weight nor necessarially LoP) made for a customer. But that doesn't mean they are the classic "matched pairs" - identical guns. But It does look like Purdey, Reilly and probably others would build customers what they wanted.

I'm kind of hoping that Reilly gun 1 (SN 27853) and gun 2 (SN 27854), both built on Scott Triplex actions with 30" Whitworth steel barrels, sideclips on fences, identical engraving, etc., have a gun 3 (20 gauge) and gun 4 (28 gauge) (and in my imagination, I somehow wind up with all 4).

I've seen multi gauge "sets", identical in most regards, by WR, Boss, etc.
But never have seen them referred to as "trio's", or "garniture's"

I realize I never finished this line - for completion sake, here is the conclusion posted on the Reilly line:

========================================================================================
Matched pair 16 bores 27853, 27854.

Per a couple of previous lines, I bought a 16 bore Reilly SN 27853 in December 2018 from Gavin, built on a Scott Triplex action, number one of a pair. I had in my database one of Terry Buffum's guns 27854, a 12 bore with identical specs, sold 2016 at Amoskeag.

Top 27853; Bottom 27854 (from the auction house photo)


We discussed on this thread whether this might be a husband/wife "pair" - David Trevallion confirmed he'd seen Purdey #1 and #2 guns but 12 bore and 16 bore:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=557354&page=1

I despaired of Amoskeag helping track down the buyer of 27854. I finally sent Amoskeag a letter, with a stamped envelope inside containing a letter to "whom it may concern" re 27854. I asked Amoskeag to address it and forward it to the buyer (they were protecting privacy). The letter was ultimately retuned to me with a name and a Massachusetts address and "undeliverable." Internet research turned up possible matches to the name. I forwarded a second letter to one of them. After three weeks a reply!!

Our two guns, 27853 and 27854 are indeed a matched pair. His is a 16 bore, not a 12 bore. His has the identical escutcheon plate, showing the arms of Clan Urquhart from the Loc Loman area.

27583 left, 27854 right


And the Number #2 on his gun left - #1 on mine!


Small victories...but satisfying!!

And by the way, on my gun the SN on the Action Flats/water table the SN is 27553; But on the barrels, forearm, and tang behind the trigger guard 27853. Almost everyone maintains that SN stamps on the water table/action flats take precedence. In this instance, it's clearly not the case - majority wins and is supported by photographic evidence,.

Now that is some surprising good news. Happy for you. Your perseverance paid off.