Well...clearly both are English, and I'm sure this has been bandied about here before. It was a dilemma that I wrestled deeply with (first world problems, eh?) several years ago in my Don Quixote-like quest for the ultimate upland double. I've never fully-resolved the issue in that fate intervened and rather solved it for me. If the right 2-inch gun had come along before my W. Richards, I'd likely be having 2-inch 12-gauge shells shipped to my home and not 16, like this Christmas.



For me, it is the intersection of fit, weight, and lethality. Twelves (12s) kill stone dead for me more often than not, 16s come close, the rest....not so much. IMHO, it's a place where the 20 has little hope. Too light can be a problem (too-heavy isn't even considered).

Either will work
Great selection
Mike

I've clearly overthought this. I had written a fairly good missive on the subject and then fat-fingered it on my POS laptop and lost it. Let me see if I can recapture that thought...

The prey species and habitat are critical components here as well. Ruffed Grouse and deciduous forests are the biggest parts of the equation. All the factors must intersect for this to make any sense.









We're talking lots of walking (4 plus miles per day), often with opportunities to shoot either never happening or only seldom, and then usually without much warning. You rarely get more than one good shot off, and... if there is a chance of a second shot, it is almost always immediate and crucial.

I'm of the opinion that the 2-inch 12 should excel here. My 16 comes very close (at 5lbs14), but I suspect that the highly specialized 5 1/2 lb 12-gauge is the ultimate answer. But...it must fit and swing flawlessly. For someone of my size, 14 3/4-inch LOP and twentyeight inch barrels are critical (and seldom encountered, most are too-short and with 26 tubes). I've only seen a handful of 2-inch guns that would've worked for me and they were, accordingly, priced somewhat prohibitively. Thus my little 16...

Think I`d stick with the 16 tbh ,much more choice of loads and better wad column length and case closures.

No question, the 16 is far-more commonly encountered here than the 2-inch 12. My English gun happens to be in proof for 2 3/4-inch, so I can occasionally find shells that will suit my needs. Generally though, I choose to shoot 2 1/2-inch RSTs because of the gun's 100-plus years of age and thin wrist. I could also reload (and that would arguably be the best and least-expensive option).

The 2-inch 12 is clearly going to be difficult to feed in this country. You're likely going to have to either reload or special order everything you'll be using. However, the 2-inch is reportedly the best of all the "square" load options you can find. Very efficient, low pressures and almost no-stringing, with a near perfect one ounce "pie-pan" of ejecta impacting the target, thus the great lethality of the load.

Usually loaded with 7/8oz over here ,how would you get 1oz into those short cases and have an effective obturation and a good rto ?

I've seen the 7/8 ounce loads, but we sold far-more of the 15/16th-ounce 2-inch RSTs when I was working for Mark Reynolds. 15/16th of an ounce is effectively interchangeable for a full ounce for me, and they seemed to be a big hit with the 2-inch crowd we were selling to then.

I’d rather have a 2 1/2” 16 bore and a 1 oz load for grouse (& quail). Just my humble opinion though. I like 28” barrels and most, if not all of those 2” guns I’ve seen had 26” or shorter barrels. Short barrels are not my cup of tea. Plus, and I guess due to rarity, there’s a significant premium for cost of 2” guns.

buzz: Well...yes. And for all the reasons you mention, I'm shooting a 16 these days. I'd dearly love to try out a 2-inch gun though. Those "big" 12 bore tubes on that "little" 20-gauge frame look so-darn good to me. Almost feminine in a rather strange way. Not a particularly apt comparison but...when looking down the action they somehow remind me of a small-framed women with large-ish breasts. God help me.

I hear that!!

Lloyd,

I hope you haven't stopped looking for a 2" 12. They are great to carry and do the job. Never stop looking or you'll miss a chance.

Ken

When you guys talk about 2" 12s for upland, I am wondering how much that includes wild pheasants. I have never had a 2" but I think it would be at a considerable handicap for pheasants and pheasant country while the 16 may allow some advantages in that department.

Merry Christmas, Lloyd.
I trust the young man is pondering 20 gauge loads, at this time?

An ounce is the more significant measure, as opposed to any notion of gauge. Three gauges handle that ounce very well.
Beyond that, it comes to fit.

Be well. Hope to see you, soon.

Best,
Ted

Brent,

I'm using the 15/16 oz load in a 2" gun for KS wild pheasants. In a 2.5" gun I use a 1oz load. There isn't a lot of difference in the load. You do need to keep a 5 1/2 lb gun swinging.

Ken

Thanks Ken.

That seems light to me but maybe that's just me. In a heavy wind (the norm it seems) and birds flushing a little ways out, that strikes me as a light load, but maybe not. I prefer a 1 1/8 oz or even 1.25 for those really windy days.

Ted: He's mostly pondering his old car these days (we titled and registered it yesterday), but he did like the 12 double he found under the tree this morning. I still need to send it to Topeka for the triggers, but we're talking about what is next for it.

Ken: I'm always on the prowl....

BrentD: I'd likely limit my use of a light 12 or 16 to thin-skinned birds. I have a nice Spanish sidelock that I use almost exclusively for pheasants and other such things.

My mistake. Thought you were after a 20 for your son. He is a big man, the 12 will serve him well.
The car. That must be exciting, I remember my first, although it wasn’t as, ahem, “unique” as that model.
Give the boy my regards. Hope to see the gun, and him, next season.

Best,
Ted

No worries Ted, my earlier post talked about a gun for a "20-something" I was working with, easy to confuse that one. I'm always looking forward to the "next year". The last few have been pretty challenging. Hopefully the next few will be far-more happy.

You and me both. Hoping for fair weather, on several different levels, so to speak.

Best,
Ted

I've never held, let alone shot, a 2" 12, but I do have a 2.5" 6.4lb 30" damascus Lefever 12, and it swings like a dream and shoots like it too. I rarely miss with it. I'm a huge 16 guy, but it's basically like shooting a 16, except with slightly wider barrels. I can see the attraction to the 12ga option. You can't go wrong with either.

I love the 2” guns, and yes they come in 28” length. I have three coming in from UK (eventually) with one being 28”. Two of them will be for sale.

Mr. Larson: That is a gorgeous Lefever! I love what you've done with it. Shockingly light for an American 12, and Damascus...even better.

Lloyd, you disproved this statement in your first post. That could have just as easily have been a box of 2" 12's from RST...

You have to be somewhat of a tinkerer to reload for the 2" 12. A 2 1/2" 16, on the other hand, isn't that big of a challenge. And if I'm going to rely on a gun for bird hunting, I want to do a fair amount of target shooting with it. That's a significant additional expense if you're shooting nothing but factory shells.

Thank you! It's an ungraded special order gun. The only way it could be any better is if I could find an orphaned set of 16ga ejector barrels and have them fitted to it, for an awesome 16/12 two barrel set. If anyone knows of any, please let me know.

I've found that a 1 ounce load is pretty deadly on wild pheasants be it from a 20, 16 or 12. A light well fitted gun will put you on birds faster giving you a yardage advantage over a shooter with a heavier weight shotgun and load. I have/had 12's, 16's and 20's all within a couple ounces +/- of 6# couldn't tell the difference in performance in the field.

Lloyd, like Mark I also have a 12 gauge sidelock with longish barrels (29.5") that weighs in at 6.3 pounds. Although it's German, by Sauer, not American. And I used to have a English Army & Navy 12 that was 6.2 pounds with 28" barrels. Much as I love the 16's I have owned, with the right loads, a nice lightweight 12 is nothing to turn one's nose up at.

It may be purely perception on my part, but 12s kill much more cleanly for me. Light 12s have always facinated me accordingly. Guns like Thomas Turner's exotic lightweights, Lindner's sweet & light Charles Daily 12s, some of the Lincoln Jeffries offerings, etc. All have great appeal, but...the 2-inch guns are the ultimate expression of that art IMHO.

I recall reading about an issue with shot balling on the 2” guns. Do not recall the cause, the fix, or anything else.
The ultimate expression thing sounds expensive to me. That little Darne 12 I drag up there every year is 6lbs, 1 oz-with it’s 6 ounce sling. It is chambered and proofed at 2 3/4”, will handle loads that I can’t, and hits birds like Oden’s fury.
A light 12 is very doable, without the big, gold letters that say “for 2” cartridges only” on the top of the barrels.
Keep looking. I’d insist on modern chambers and proof, but, that that is open for consideration, as 2 1/2” in 12 is doable, also, just not as simply.
Simple is easier. Cheaper, usually, too.

Best,
Ted

Ted: Well...yes. Your Darne is a classic example of yet another excellent option for an upland bird gun. The round action Ideals are another example. They are clearly out there. To your point on "ultimate" solutions... no question, such a highly specialized tool isn't going to be inexpensive nor will it have much utility outside of it's area of specialization. It's simply the price one pays for the concept. My 16 has been everything I'd hoped it would be and then some. I'd just like to know if there is something more out there. Perhaps something better for the very specific game I'm playing. And, since I've handled several over the years, I'm curious.

Ted,

The 2" balling issue is from back in the 1890s when Lancaster first came out with the 2" Pygmy cartridge being used in 2 1/2" guns. I haven't seen an article of 2" shot balling in 2" chambered guns.

Ken

Don’t get rid of the 16. “More” gets to be hard to define on bird guns. Sometimes, you don’t know what you had, until you don’t.

Best,
Ted

Personally, I think 12s are the cat's meow, except when you have a pile of them, it becomes a bit easier to justify a 16 as something new and different, and shortly, it becomes a must have. And hence, I am in the hunt for one, still looking.

Fear not Ted. I won't be selling my 16, we've been through too much together and it took so long to find her.

Hellis used...

They may say "Hellis" or "Lang" or even "Jeffrey" but most all the 2-inch boxlock guns were made by Skimin & Wood in the early 1930s. The only ones I've seen that weren't were Holland & Holland and Purdey sidelocks. One Holland was even a Dominion model (very cool!).

Much like a single trigger, 2” chamber guns answer a question I never asked.
I wish you all the luck finding one that fits.

Best,
Ted

The Spanish (Arrieta) made some. However, they tended to weigh almost as much as quite a few Brit 2 1/2" 12's. But they do have modern stock dimensions.

Hi Lloyd,

Skimin didn't make them all. I have two 2" boxlocks by Arthur Howell, one is marked "Henry Monk" and the other "W. Hodgson". The barrels are stamped "J.A." which I believe indicates that the barrels & actions were machined by Joseph Asbury.

Redoak, reference the above. I have a Tolley 2" and Skimmin & Wood bought their name sometime before the gun was made. The barrels of mine are marked 'JA' too so he probably did work for them. Most English guns are a product of a group of outworkers. 10 to 1 your guns mentioned were Skimmin & Wood's. Henry Monk's are still in business in Chester as far as I know and may be able to shed some light upon the origins of your gun. Lagopus.....

Lapogus,

I may be wrong, but mine both have Arthur Howell's "A.H.&Co" stamp under the barrels and they are both filed up with Arthur Howell's distinctively shaped fences.

Just checked and my Hellis is also marked "JA". Was Joseph Asbury an independent shop or was he part of Skimmin & Wood?

Rob,

It is my understanding that he was an independent barrel and action machinist to the trade and that his machinery was sold to A.A. Brown when he went out of business.


https://www.aabrownandsons.com/history.html

Either gun will do and I own both 2 inch guns and 16's. I think the two inch, 12 would be my choice, overall. If you look hard enough you will eventually find the gun that fits your dimensions. Kirby Hoyt seems to get a fair number of two inch guns. One of mine came from him and it has 28" barrels and a long LOP.

Don't let scarcity of ammo be a factor. Just pack enough along so you never run out. I have a friend who once said, "the best hunt you can have is when you run out of ammo".

It is more likely that the odds are 1000 to 1 that Skimmin & Woods did not build Red Oaks guns, but that Arthur Howell did from his premises at 28 Weaman St. Birmingham.

In 2002 while living in the UK I spent a great deal of time in Birmingham and the area researching the Howell family of Gunmakers in Birmingham. The results of which I documented in an article that was published in the Winter 2005 issue of the "DOUBLE GUN JOURNAL". My research including visiting and interviewing descendants of Arthur Howell as well as his brother William descendants. I even spoke with the current owner of Arthur Howell's old home to see if any gun records were in the attic of the house.

Arthur Howell opened his business early 1900's and continued in business until his death in 1957 (age 77 from a stroke) during which time he made thousands of guns for the trade(maybe as many as 8,000 considering his serial numbers), with the last gun he made being a 16 gauge BLE for Arthur Hill co. He was a well known member of the gun trade as well as member in good standing with the "The Gunmakers Association" of the UK. You can view the 1929 Gunmakers Association members photo and see that he is member number 86 in
that photo (view the photo on page 208 the 2nd edition of Donald Dallas "Boss Gunmakers" book.

He made an amount of 2 inch guns as well as they were the "in" gun for the walk up shooters for the between the wars years. (as to the Hellis 2 inch gun I do not see any marks of "AH co" on the barrels but you can see in the article that I wrote in the DGJ a photo of an order from Charles Hellis to Arthur Howell and co. January 20, 1938 for 20 BLE and 20 BLNE 12 gauge guns to be serial numbered BLE 4230-4249 and BLNE 4262 -4281.

Arthur Howell's shop on Weaman street was damaged severely during the blitz. He continued to work in the shop during the war and his daughter told me that she remembered that when the bombing was really bad that Arthur could not get home at night and he would sleep under his work bench at 28 Weaman street hoping not to be a victim.

Arthur Howell was just one of the number of Birmingham gunmakers that built thousands guns for the trade and only a few with his name on the action and barrels. His action filing of his guns is well known as to the standing breech and very precisely executed and Red Oak and others can spot a Arthur Howell filed action from across the room. Unlike most gunmakers of his time he was keen shooter and his daughter remembers him going to Scotland many times to shoot with his customers as well as Salmon fishing theere. She also discussed with me the trips she made with him to Europe to purchase gunstock wood and shotgun barrels in Belgium.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Rob;

I have sent you a PM.
Regards;
Stephen

I just checked my two 2 inch guns - both have J.A. on the barrels just as the photo above.

Lloyd,
Well, I suppose you’ve already thought this, but, why not both? I may as well be your friend, and, enabler.
That 20 your brother was sporting at grousemas a few seasons past was nothing to sneer at, either. Perhaps you need a trifecta.

Did you get to drive, locally, in the ice this morning? I helped a thrill seeker out of the ditch on the way to the post office. I sent the .410 barrel to Mike Orlen for choke tubes. Figured skeet and modified tubes should cover most of the needs anyone could have with an idiot stick.

Be safe.

Best,
Ted

As to a "Square Load" for many years Hercules/Alliant in their reloader's guide gave a chart of the length of the shot column in each gauge for an ounce of shot. Presumably, this was for ordinary chilled lead of a size around 7½-8. Lengths were for 10 gauge .610"; 12 -.690", 16 -..837"; 20 - .968"; 28 1.210" & .410 -2.175". As a square load is defined as one in which the column length in the bore is equal to the bore diameter then simply divide the bore diam by this length & it will give you the Square load for that gauge.

Personally I have never placed any stock in the Sq load theory. I have fired 1 oz loads from 12, 16 & 20 gauge guns & the only difference I could ever tell was if one gun fit better I could shoot it better. The actual gauge had very little to do with this effect.

I think I said this about 4 pages back. Worth repeating, however.

Best,
Ted

Ted: Both would be great but... time will tell on that one. Hard to justify yet another gun when this 16 works so darn well. My exposure to these guns at M W Reynolds has left me with a mild fascination with them. An itch I haven't quite scratched yet.