Hi there,

I'm a newcomer to the world of fine vintage doubles and this forum. I recently purchased my first vintage shotgun, a Henry Atkin best-quality sidelock. It's a beautiful gun that had the chambers extended to 2 3/4" shells and has recently been reproofed. My understanding is that I can shoot either 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" ammunition through the gun as long as it is "low pressure" and generally under 1200 FPS.

I am looking for recommendations for
(a) hunting ammo - my bird hunting with this gun will likely be hunting quail, chukar, pheasant, and dove in and around Texas (my location)
(b) target ammo - I will likely shoot the occasional round of sporting clays and maybe skeet with the gun

I have heard great things about RST shells and also low pressure modern factory ammo like Winchester AA Light Target Loads or Remington STS . For RST there seem to be a variety of shell offerings in 2 1/2" and 2 3/4" and I was wondering if anyone had an opinion of the "best" shells for hunting the type of game I mentioned, and/or for breaking clays.

Thanks in advance.

-Mike

I would stick to ones under 1200 FPS on off the shelf ammo

Welcome on your first posting. You're on the right track as far as staying away from max pressure ammo, and staying in the lower velocity range. Personally, I prefer to stay under 1200 fps with everything I shoot, even in modern guns. High velocity in shot shells is overrated, except for steel.

RSTs are great, Polywad is another company that offers low pressure loads for vintage guns, though they are experiencing some difficulties with shipping and customer relations, I am hearing. I'm assuming it is a 12 ga. gun. If so, I'd stay with 1 oz. loads for all the game you mentioned, with maybe the possible exception of pheasant, where 1 1/8 might be more appropriate. Others here have much more to offer on advice for pheasants. B & P Comp Ones are a great low pressure load, attractively priced, but buy one box and try them in your gun to make sure they will fire reliably. Many guns, including MOST of mine, won't fire them reliably because of how deep they sit in the standard 12 ga. chamber. Something about the rim dimensions causes it.

Good luck! SRH

Was it proved at 850 BAR and marked 65mm, or 900 BAR and marked 70mm?
The CIP transducer “Maximal Statistical Individual Pressure” of 850 BAR is for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 740 BAR = 10,733 PSI - not "low pressure"
900 BAR is for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 780 BAR = 11,313 PSI

Vic Venters, Shooting Sportsman, March-April 2012, “CIP Proof”
“Although the Maximum Mean Pressures for service loads for standard proof (850 BAR / 2 1/2") guns are 740 BAR, CIP regulated cartridge manufacturers typically work to lower pressures...between 450 (6,527 psi) and 650 bars (9,427 psi) as measured by CIP piezo transducers.”

Recoil, and the effect on the vintage wood is another issue.
Most 1 oz. target loads are about 1200 fps, with pressures of 7,500 - 8,500 psi.
Kent Elite 2 3/4” 7/8 oz. at 1200 fps is a great target load. The 2 1/2" 3/4 oz. is even better. Fiocchi also has a 7/8 oz. at 1200 fps target load.
Kent/Gamebore English Field loads are available in pheasant size shot.

Scroll to the bottom here for a some shotshell ballistic data
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

Yes sorry I forgot to mention it is a 12 Gauge gun.

For RST have you tried both the paper and fibre wad shells? I notice they offer a variety of 2 1/2” options all pretty much priced the same but didn’t know if one was better for hunting vs targets than another.

Thanks! This is helpful. It is proved at 70mm. I’m a big proponent of the “better safe than sorry” mentality and that’s why I figured keeping it under 1200 FPS is a good bet. I know with premium shot shells like RST etc you can get just as much performance out of those lower pressure shells and I’m willing to pay the premium. Will check out the options you suggested.

ms86,
Welcome to the board! I use RST 1 oz. loads in all my guns for hunting birds like you mention, even my 2 3/4" guns. I've found that the sensible velocity and pressure improves my shooting. I usually use the paper/plastic wad shells for hunting, and their regular 2 1/2" shells for targets in my guns so chambered. Their shells in #7's are one of my favorites for Michigan woods birds.
I hope this helps,
Karl

I really think you will be happy with the products from RST and their customer service

Thanks! I think RST shells sound like the best bet.

Since the gun is proofed for 2 3/4" would you recommend shooting RST "Premium Grade" 2 3/4" shells? I know you can also shoot 2 1/2" shells out of 2 3/4" chambers - wasn't sure whether I'd get better or worse performance that way. I suppose one way to find out is to buy both and give it a try.

Try both and see which you like best. They should both perform the same...Geo

If you use European cartridges look for the letters CIP on the box. If they state they are o.k. for 65mm., 67mm., or 70mm, you are o.k. One thing of note that although Proof tested for the 70mm. 2 3/4" cartridges I would avoid heavy loads. Although the gun is now tested safe for them it was made as a lightweight game gun and best used with light cartridges to avoid excessive recoil and punishing an old gun. Game cartridges in the 28 or 30 gram range would be good choices. Lagopus…..

Thanks all. I went ahead and purchased some RST shells, their 2 3/4” Lite 1 oz loads. That should work for my hunting ammo needs. I’m sure I could also use them for target shooting but would also welcome recommendations on “off the shelf” target ammo that has low pressures. I read over Drew’s linked article and it seems that Winchester AA low noise low recoil or B&P Competition shells could do the trick. If there are folks who currently use certain modern factory ammo brands that aren’t prohibitively expensive for breaking clays with vintage guns, please chime in.

I don’t currently reload but I am starting to wonder if learning how to do so would be a good idea...

ms86,
For my guns chambered for 2 3/4", I use Estate Super Sport Competition shells, 2 3/4" 1 oz. #8's. At 1175 fps, they are reasonable in cost and soft shooting.
Karl

Reloading is an excellent idea

If the gun is proofed at 70mm (2 3/4") it can handle the pressure of US 2 3/4" loads. My concern is recoil on the wood and my shoulder so I prefer lighter recoiling loads.

For all of the birds you mention, except pheasants, I would use 2 3/4" 1 ounce #7.5 at 1150 - 1200 fps. I would use the same load for sporting clays and skeet but would use either #7.5 or #8 shot.

I haven't hunted wild pheasants but would increase the load to 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounces of #5 or #6 shot with a lower velocity - I'm not a believer in high velocity for lead shot loads.

Thanks. I think the RST shells I purchased are exactly in line with your thoughts. #7.5 1 oz load that should be a good option for clays, quail, and dove. I did also buy some #5 1 oz loads to try out on pheasant.

Since you're shooting a British gun, you may also want to try some British shells. Kent Gamebore makes a Pure Gold load in 12ga with which I've had excellent results on wild pheasants. 1 1/16 oz of British 6's. Brit shot sizes run smaller than ours. Their 6's, at 270 to the ounce, are slightly larger than our 7's. That load gives you almost exactly the same pellet count as 1 1/4 oz of American 6's. 2 1/2" paper hulls with fiber wads. If you want the equivalent of American 6's in shot size, you need to use Brit 5's.

Only guessing, but is it possible that the pheasant and chukar are preserve birds? I hadn't seen mention of chokes, distances or confidence in the pattern board, but you may be more than well covered by an ounce of #7 or #6 for the bigger birds. I'd suppose #5's are just fine. I think reloading is a great option, but that doesn't mean someone can't mix in factory shells with their shooting.

Is that 1&1/16 oz load available in a plastic case Larry?

You got it the pheasants and chukar in this case would be pen raised though I’d like to get out and do some wild pheasant hunting we just don’t have as much of that in TX. Chokes are basically IC and Light Modified/Modified (.011 and .017) and shots typically within 20-25 yards. For clays the application would likely be sporting clays or skeet. Not as likely to be used for trap.

Steve, I poked around some on the Net trying to find it. No luck. The ones I have are paper case/fiber wad.
2 1/2".

Thanks Larry, that is all I could find as well. I'm shooting the last of the H&H cartridges I have at the moment, made by Hull cartridge. They work wonderfully but are no longer being sold here is the States. I am not a fan of paper cases. I end up getting them wet and tossing too many. Still trying to find my next load for wild roosters.

Yes, you do need to keep them dry. When I was shooting a lot of pheasants with 12's (mostly British), I used that load in the R barrel with good results. I backed it up with a low pressure 1 1/8 oz reload in the left barrel, using Federal Gold Medal hulls, Federal wads, and Unique powder. Patterned really well. It wasn't often that I felt I needed to go to 1 1/4 oz. But if I do go to 1 1/4 oz, I like the RST's, which are very similar to the old "Super Pigeon" load, and available in both 6's and 5's. 2 3/4" hulls.