I really like this one but 26" barrels and engraved with pointers and quail? Odd combo to say the least. Roosters and setter on the left side makes a bit more sense.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101365711

As my fragile memory serves me, Borgardus recommended a ten bore for most upland birds and said something like “anyone who couldn’t carry an eight pound gun all day shouldn’t be in the field.” Now I know that’s not exactly what he said but that’s what stuck in memory.

PS: just reviewed his book again. He preferred a ten pound ten gauge for his upland and trap work. For his upland loads he preferred five drams of powder and one ounce of #9 or #8 shot.

This one is only 7lbs 4ozs, and has 3" chambers proofed for 1&1/2 OZs of shot. That is some big medicine for Gentleman Bob.

Must say I have used my 10-bore Darne R-16 for chukars, huns and pheasants. The gun carries St. Etienne superior proof with 75mm chambers and weighs 7lbs 2 oz.

The barrels use Briley choke tubes in skt, M, IC, and Full. It carries and handles well in the field and reloads quickly in the blind. Would not hesitate to use it against quail, but so far it's been the Charlin 12 gauge that has done that service.

Regards, Tim

That'd be some big pipes looking down on Mr. Bob

Probably could kill 4 or 5 on a covey rise, one shot with open chokes, a full load of shot, and quick shooting. Not enough birds for that sort of thing in this day and age.

Better sight picture with those wider barrels...take out a whole covey.

Dear Lord!
5 drams of powder?

I think some would be cooked when they hit the ground.

Market hunter?

If you sold wild bobs to the game market you trapped them. You can catch the whole covey at one time, without firing a shot. Zero expense.

SRH

That brings back memories. Quite often my bird dogs would point a trap full of quail. They were usually close to a house which probably housed hungry children depending on the birds for food.

Some I left alone and some I'd flip over and release the birds. It really never felt right either way...Geo

Guy de la Valdene's Fragrance of Grass, recounts how French market hunters would poach partridges from private estates. They would typically use a small pointing dog, often a Brittany, which would find a covey roosting at night in an open field and the poachers would throw a net over them. Gil

Ten bores for close in ground birds and decoyed ducks are not rare. I have ten bore Parkers with hammers, 28" cylinder bored barrels, and less than eight pounds, a 27" ten bore DH Parker at 7 pounds, 4 ounces, and a 26" ten bore Sauer hammerless Krupp gun at six pounds, four ounces. Francotte light tens are not rare either. Some guys ordering guns, back in the day, knew exactly what they wanted.

I tried to learn to trap them, as a kid, but never was any good at it. Didn't have my heart in it. Just tho't it was something I needed to learn to do. I was hell on the jorees (towhees), tho'.

Speaking of memories, oh how I miss those carefree days wandering the fields, woods and swamps as a boy. My biggest worry was tests in school.

Can't imagine using a 10 for quail. I feel guilty hunting them with anything over a 20 ga. and 7/8 oz. shot.

As an avid quail hunter and with modern ammunition, a 10 bore just seems a little more than ridiculous.

Be good for ground swatting
...

In the 50’s, growing up on a ranch in West Texas, we kids often trapped blue quail. Mother loved to cook quail but didn’t like shot in them. Never had a guilty conscience about it. Those were days of inexhaustible plenty and we kids were too young to have qualms.

Like eightbore I too have a Parker hammer 10 gauge with 28” choked barrels on a 2 frame weighing less than eight pounds. I have carried it many times in the field while chasing pheasants. 1 1/4 ounce of #5 with the short shot string hits them like a sledgehammer. Same with spring turkey.

We live in a time when full choke is almost obsolete. Bet those guys who “knew what they wanted” would trade places in a heartbeat.

And start carrying a 20 gauge.

Best,
Ted

In terms of the guns and ammo, I bet you are right Ted. Life in general, I don’t know. Life a hundred years ago may have been more satisfying than it is now. They didn’t know any different then, nor do we really now.

I agree- as quail are scare in MI--and don't seem to work out for the pay as you shoot preserves, I think the opposite end of the spectrum, gauge wise, might also apply- I am 100% with the late Nash Buckingham in opposition to using a .410 on game birds, let alone waterfowl. RWTF

That would be a dandy to swing around in a duck blind or duck boat.

Francis, I'd like to have had Nash on a dove shoot. I think I could have caused him to rethink his blanket statement about .410s on some small gamebirds, like doves. Not bragging, just saying what I have found to be true over the last 8-10 years. I can name many men who are adept enough, and mature enough, to use a .410 wisely on a dove field, and in the quail woods .............. two or three of them on this forum.

SRH

Your self included in that Trio. Late POTUS Eisenhower used M42's for quail- also some other American all stars. How about I modify my remarks to exclude the .410 from waterfowl hunting. My post might have been a bit "self-serving", as due to settlement of a Super Bowl bet years ago, I have a well-worn M12 28 gauge that I'd love to use on some Dixie bobs and doves someday. My dentist uses his 28 ga. O/U on preserve pheasants and also on SC.

My late father started me with a 20 gauge- at 11 yrs. I was gifted with a Savage/Stevens 20 bore single shot, mod. choke, and when I reached 14- he gave me his 20 bore M12-also mod. choked. I have never owned or even shot a .410-- guess I am a chronic cheap-skate, as the high price of the .410 ammo would keep me "outta da loop"-- By the way, I have some greenbacks ahead of SB 54-- My beloved Packers against the KC Chiefs- we shall see. RWTF

Stan I also agree with Nash...I really think your statement is bass akereds.

Should read...I know many men that go through a second childhood and are immature enough to hunt with a foe tin.

The only 10 gauge I have ever owned is a 32" barreled 10 lb Lefever E grade. I have shot a Spanish made 3½" 10 gauge magnum that belonged to my Father-in-law & killed a Canada goose with it.

Some ys back when the TN Gun Collectors put on a decent show in Nashville I met & became friends with another Lefever fan. He had a 10 gauge L Barber (AKA Barber & Lefever) hammer gun. I did not weigh it nor measure the barrel length. My best guess was the barrels were 28" & weight closer to 7 lb than to 7½ lbs. I could very easily see myself walking up beside a good pointing dog to flush a covey of quail. I considered this to be an Upland gun & not a waterfowl one.

I would, of course, want to use a load suitable for quail, such as a 3¼ dram -1 1/8 oz shot or no more than a 3½ dram-1¼ oz shot load. One would not see a nickel's worth of difference in the pattern than equivalent loads from a 12. The thought that just because it is a 10 that it will throw a pattern as wide as Barn Door & Slay everything therein is simply LUDICROUS. With the same amount of shot a barrel with a bigger hole May, or May Not, throw a more uniform pattern, but seldom a wider one with equivalent chokes.

5 drams of powder behind a light shot charge is also Ludicrous. W W Greener pointed this out at least as early as 1910.

"Use Enough Gun" Robert Ruark

In my previously posted list of light ten bores, I neglected to mention my 28" Lefever F Grade steel barrel ten that weighs just 7 1/4 pounds and is a delight to carry in the fields. I still own all the guns I mentioned in my post, as well as a very lightweight DH Grade Parker 30" 8 gauge that barely makes ten pounds.

8-bore;
That sounds like a most delightful 10 to me. I would have loved to have been able to find one that light, but all I ever managed to encounter were the heavy ones. The frame on my E grade 10 is larger than on any of my 12s. Although I have not had the good fortune to check it out, I highly suspect it is the same frame they used for the 8 gauge guns they built.

Do you have a Lefever among your 8 gauge guns?

The Lefever forum had a discussion about frame sizes, especially the different 10 gauge frame sizes. I have Lefever tens from over ten pounds down to my steel barrel 7 1/4 pound gun, in half pound increments. I would love to see the order sheets for all of those guns. When the Lefever site updated their forum, we brought the old discussion of frame sizes to the new forum. As far as I know, it is still available for research.

Miller, as much as I respect your opinions I cannot understand how you think a 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 oz. load of lead shot is "suitable" to kill a six ounce bird, when the same loads will absolutely kill two and a half pound ducks, with larger shot size for penetration. I well remember what an awesome load 1 1/4 oz. of lead shot was for "big ducks" and how many woodies I killed with that 3 1/4 - 1 1/8 lead load. IMO using anything over 1 oz. for a little quail is just meat damaging, and 7/8 oz. is aplenty 90% of the time. I favor quail above every other meat I have ever eaten, and I don't want them all bloodshot and damaged from excessive loads.

A good shot can hold his own quite well on quail, woodcock and yes, even doves, with a 3/4 to 7/8 oz. load of the appropriate size shot. And, big loads won't make a good shot out of a poor one.

SRH

Stan, I agree completely with you. We are a society of overachievers and if 1 is good then 2 must be great!

A dove doesn't care what gauge a load of shot is delivered from. Three #7 1/2 shot out of a .410 at equivalent velocity will do the deed exactly the same as a three out of a 12. To argue that point is to show one's ignorance. Pattern density will deliver those three shot. It is up to the man behind the trigger to choose the appropriate range. The appropriate range for a 11/16 to 3/4 oz. .410 load is just much less than it is for a "normal dove load", such as 1 oz., out of a bigger bore.

This has been pointed out so many times as to make it seem redundant. But, it's true that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Nash didn't have the luxury of plastic shotcups and the far superior loadings we have today. He was an intelligent man, not someone who never rose above childish name calling, and would have evaluated the loadings we have today on their own merit, not those of some writer from some 75 years before his time.

Nash didn't have the luxury of shooting pen raised quail...

I suspect it's been so long since you shot a wild quail you've forgotten the difference.

You "suspect".

The amount of stuff you don't know about me is truly impressive, Frank,

The amount of stuff you think you know is much more impressive, Stan.

Anything specific I've said that you want to challenge me on?

SRH

Stan;
The vast majority of quail I have killed have been taken with 1 oz of shot, either #8 or # 7½. Some with 7/8 oz of #8. Frankly, I don't really care if they are thrown from a 12, 16 or 20. I would not necessarily buy a 10 gauge specifically as a quail gun, but should I have run across a light-weight 10 gauge field gun such as that approximately 7 lb 1874-76 Barber & Lefever I would certainly have tried it. Actually I would not have loaded it with 1 ¼ oz of shot. However, look at the math of it. 7/8 oz of # 7½ shot has 306 pellets a 3 pellet hit is 3/306 or 0.1% of the load. 1¼ oz of #7½ shot has 437 pellets. Assume a similar pattern spread with that same percentage of pellets striking. Guess how many pellets are going to hit that little quail. Well, 1% times 437 = a WHOPPING 4.37 pellets. That's not exactly going to make mincemeat out of that quail.

Chances are pretty good that old L Barber may have been cylinder bored. If so & considering that the .410s are notorious for central thickening of their patern it would likely with any load as light as 1 1/8 oz have actually been gentler on the quail with a well centered hit than the .410 but with a wider more uniform spread for less crippling on the outer edges of the patern.

One needs to match their guns to their personal abilities. I AM NOT a .410 level shooter. Unfortunately in my near 82 years of life, I have seen many shooting them who weren't either, yet they claimed to be a "Better Sportsman" than me because they used a gun that they had not the ability to use. Sort of leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.

Understand I am NOT judging you or your ability as I have never seen you shoot. By the same token I don't appreciate being judged for the fact that I might well shoot a bigger gun than you feel is necessary. Nuff Said.

Years ago I read a book by Paul Curtis and he talked about a 10 bore high grade gun he had made to hunt quail.Going by memory and I think it was probably an L.C. Smith.

Who drags a .410 into a 10 gauge thread.

Only Stan....just saying

I'm not "judging" you, Miller. I'm just disagreeing with your statement that 1 1/8 oz. and 1 1/4 oz. loads are "suitable" quail loads.

In practice the heavy loads will damage meat worse than lighter loads. There is central thickening in every pattern I have ever shot, and I've patterned many in my life. All patterns are denser in the center.

I hope you are not inferring that I think I am a "better sportsman"' than you or anybody else because I know that a .410 can be entirely adequate for quail or doves. This has nothing to do with personalities, but everything to do with experience. There are a whole lot of ways to use a bigger gun than a .410 without going to a 10. But, if you feel a 10 is "suitable" for quail, fine. Enjoy the bloodshot meat from a quail shot with 1 1/4 oz. of shot. And, I know I'm stepping off in to deep water stating this to you, but everything cannot be explained with mathematics. A 1 1/4 oz. load of shot is extreme overkill for a quail, your numbers notwithstanding.

SRH

One last time Frank, anything specific you want to challenge me on?

SRH

Dragging a .410 into a 10 guage thread reminds me of a Joe Biden moment...

Just saying.

I thought not.

I have a 10 bore 10.5 pound I. Hollis & sons marked finest field gun engraved with pointers quail and pheasants a very high end gun but was always curios why such a large heavy gun for the field. any thoughts?

Ted; I agree with your statement about the full choke being almost obsolete.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

In his later, more affluent years, the late Paul A. Curtis favored English made side-by-sides, London "bests" and a few made to order by R.G. Owen. The late Dr. Charles Cadwalader Norris, a "Main-line Blue Blood, started with L.C. Smith doubles, than later moved in the Purdey class. When did Hunter Arms drop the 10 bore from their line? My guess, strictly a SWAG- soon after they developed their 12 bore LONGRANGE model. RWTF