Hello,

first of all, I am not into double guns at all, so please correct me If I got anything wrong. Some time ago, I bought this well (ab-)used Francotte out of curiosity as a wallhanger. It was relatively cheap and I wanted to get a grip on a sidelock once (just as I bought an AK training model when they were still allowed). It came in a larger lot of well-used shotguns representing mostly the lower end of the European market in the last century. I guess that these guns were handed in for destruction.

I am trying now to research the gun a little bit. I think it used to be a calibre 12 gun with 7-pin sidelock, concealed third fastener, bushed firing pins, articulated front trigger and it is stocked to the fences. Probably it was self-opening, but the mechanism is now stuck.







According to the serial number and the Belgian proof-marks, the gun was made in 1929 by Auguste Francotte Liege, Belgium. The barrels are marked “Aug. Francotte Bte a Liege” on top and with Francotte Chokebore and the usual “crown over AF” from below. In front of the trigger guard, around the maker name, it says “Made under patent 308906”.



Obviously, it used to be no. 2 of a pair, as marked on the lever and the metal part of the forend.
Furthermore, there is a silver (?) monogram plate below the lower sling swivel, which is not readable any more.


The bluing is well worn, especially on the lower side and the trigger guard is bent. The gun was reproofed in Germany early in 1971. I guess that, at the same time, the barrels were reblued (there seems to be some pitting under the blueing) and the Pachmayr “White Line” pad was added:



Some things are still unclear to me:
What is the patent number standing for? I did not find it in any online patent research. I just found one other gun bearing the same patent number. It’s a much nicer gun with a serial number a little bit earlier from the same year:
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjul...ith-case-35813/

Since the wood and engraving are rather plain, I was surprised that the serial number actually falls into the medium grade range; I would have expected bottom grade. Also, if you want to buy cheap, you usually don’t buy a pair of shotguns, no? Furthermore, the combination of a sidelock (no real technical advantage, just more space for engraving) and finish without much engraving somehow does not make sense to me. Was this gun maybe intended to be a more expensive gun but finished cheaply?
I took a look at the annual production numbers of Francotte doubles (calculated from the serial numbers published here https://www.doublegunshop.com/dgsnos2.htm):
[img]http://abload.de/img/francotteproductionnu4rj7v.jpg[/img]
It seems that before the first world war, the majority of the guns were medium grade. After the break during WW1, the production of bottom grade guns increased and soon reached the same level as medium grade. Around 1930, the production of both grades dropped considerably (world economic crisis?), with only the bottom grade recovering and even reaching higher values than the peak of medium grades in the mid of the 1930ies. My guess is that either the demand of cheaper guns increased in the 1930ies or the overall standard of all models was increased by Francotte (with the high-runners in the mid-class now being bottom grade).

Is there anything else that you can tell me about the gun? These kind of deacts will be forbidden over here end of this year. I am thinking about whether I spend the effort trying to somehow keep it somehow or not.

And of course it woud be very interesting if anybody knew no.1, probably serial 86194.

Francotte, until quite recently, has been an underrated gun in the US. Yours may not have been especially “abused” but has certainly seen a lot of use and a certain amount of lack of care.
I like them very much and I especially like them in the smaller bores.

I can’t help you with your gun. It looks as if some fool has drilled holes in the chamber area to render it unusable. If that is the case, I am truly sorry to see it. That was not that old a gun, and I would find it hard to believe there was a safety issue involved with the use of that gun that was serious enough to destroy it. It was a good quality, useful gun for sporting pursuits, not something any criminal would have been interested in.
I believe it is a perfect example of where misguided gun control efforts invariably end. This is where they always end, and where the sponsors of same want their efforts to end.
It is really a shame.

Best,
Ted

if there are in fact holes in the chambers, perhaps some sort of blow out plug could be installed to make this nice gun safe to shoot...

You mention that deactivated guns will soon be forbidden. What country are you in?

Thanks for your comments and sorry for not being clear: The gun is unusable and there is really no way to bring it back to life (If you are really interested I can describe how this was done, but that's kind of gun-horror). The story behind these is simple: If only few people are allowed to own few guns, there is no market for cheap or outdated guns. So people hand them in for destruction. The alternative to melting them down used to be to deactivate them by converting them to blank firing guns. This way you find an idiot (e.g. me) who pays for the destruction instead of the government.
For some ridiculous reason, this kind of deacts will be banned now, and it's not clear what will happen to them.
However, I didn't post this to discuss gun laws but rather to discuss this piece of history (in case there is anything interesting) before it will be gone completely.

Post some image of the marks. I'd hazard a guess from your stage name Afrikaans?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Looks a nicely `got up` gun of decent quality,shame to see it meet such a sad demise.....

I believe the reason your gun is a medium grade is because it's a sidelock which was, and probably still is, considered the only action for best guns. An un-engraved sidelock was considered a higher grade than an engraved boxlock, within the Francotte hierarchy, not just an area for more engraving.

A shame about yours, looks like the drill holes are too far back to even have the gun sleeved.

For reference this #86423, a 20ga ordered through VL&D and delivered to A&F, who had just taken over VL&D, on Dec. 24, 1929. I have the complete documentation from A&F.

It's listed as a "Deluxe Ejector Grade" and again as a "Grade 140E.A.H. Ejector.The engraving is signed by Hippolyte Corombelle, a top Belgian engraver at the time. Looks to be perhaps a grade lower than the 12ga high grade you posted. Sale price in 1929 was $750.

Germany.
Well, to be more precise: Deactivated guns are not completely forbidden. We are still allowed to own guns which were deactivated completely according to German laws, but we are not allowed to sell them any more. So some people are litterally sitting on piles of junk metal. This is a gun converted to firing blank cartriges. For decades, these were the slightly better alternative, since depending on the model, more parts were in working condition (not in this relatively recent conversion). If you want to keep these, you have to prove a legal reason why you should own them. Since they are not good for anything, there is no reason to own them. It's not clear yet, but probably ownership will be limited to theatres and film studios.
The only legal alternative are deactivations according to new EU specifications, but I do not know of a single company in Germany that has a license to do this conversion.

The 1929 Abercrombie & Fitch Firearms & Sports Catalog is available from Cornell Pubs and would likely list the Francotte models
https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=874

The good old control obssessed, EU,always using sledgehammers to crack non existent nuts!

Rob, thank you very much for posting your nice gun as a reference. I think it's quite interesting to compare #85859, #86195 and #86423. They were probably made within the same year.

#85859 and #86423 look more similar in terms of quality (drop on the stock, wings on the breech face) and configuration (Greener crossbolt).
However it seems that Francotte also used different lock plates: The positions of the pins look equal, but the screws are different, maybe because #86195 does not have cocking indicators? (edit: I realized that it has indeed cocking indicators. It looks like someone messed with them using a screw driver. So what are the two extra screws good for on the higher grade guns?)
Also the Francotte logos on the Barrels look different: #86195 has a large crown over AF, while the other two have a small crown over AF with some leaves in between. Does this mean anything?

#85859 is not a self opening action, right? I suspeect that the patent has to do something with that. On the other hand, on #86423 it looks like the standard H&H System, no? On #86195 I can hardly make it out because of the deactivation, I just see that there is something which could be similar.

Again, post some images of the marks. Pull the locks, post images & someone here will have knowledge of the component configuration.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Sad to see a nice gun killed like that. I find that gun much more appealing than the guns with the heavy engraving.

There are not much marks left except for the ones already posted:
Remains of "Francotte Chokebore" and the Crown over AF next to the German nitro proof from February 1971 (Ulm proof house). The calibre designation is gone. Hard to photograph but still visible are the original Belgian proofs with the 1929 datecode "h" (The barrels can't be removed since the handguard is welded to the barrels). The rest of the barrel markings is gone forever.
The laser marking is the recent proof for 9mm blank (private company and Köln proof house).



Sorry for the pictures - The gun is really dead.

I will try to get the lock plate off later.

I simply can’t believe there exit people so completely out of touch with history and craftsmanship that they would do that to a hunting implement.

What the hell was the point?


Best,
Ted

That is very sad

I took the sideplates off now (sorry, not cleaned yet). Both plates are numbered with the same assembly number 52. The right one has Ns. Jacquet under the main spring. It doesn't mean anything, but I didn't know that Francotte also bought locks from Nicolas Jacquet.


I'm still not sure what the forward screws on the other two sidelocks are good for. Is it just for fixing the plates to the action or is there some additional feature behind?

The locks are made by Nicolas Jacquet, he was the most important lockmaker for the Liège artisans and others of course.
Marc.

Joda, I believe you are referring to the forward screw on my #86423, which may be replaced by the stud on your gun, both holding what I believe is called simply "the cam". I have been looking for a good diagram of a bar action sidelock, naming parts, but it has eluded me and I'm not as well versed in sidelock terminology as I should be.

Surprisingly difficult to find a diagram of the parts, here's a short video by Wm. Larkin in which the name every part except what I am calling the cam...

https://youtu.be/vO15tbeaWGg

The fate that awaits all our guns if this next election goes south.

Is the teat a hammerstop built into the mainspring tensioner as an integral component?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Rob, yes, exactly this part. It seems that it's just some sort of pin which fits in a corresponding hole in the action.

I guess in yours the screw fixes the sideplate to the action, no? Since most of the 7pin sidelocks are copying the H&H royal, I was somehow surprised to see this deviation. But actually it seems that also H&H uses both variants:
http://www.thefield.co.uk/shooting/holland-holland-38434

It seems that the pin and the plate are machined from one piece, at least it does not look press-fit to me.


Still makes me wonder about the reason for having both variants from the same maker and in the same time frame. Is one version somehow considered better? Also it looks that (at least not all) locks from Francotte were sourced from Jacquet. I thought the company was large enough to produce their own locks.

It's all not really important but sometimes guns can tell interesting stories when you look at the small details.

Here's a picture of the right lock plate from my Francotte? sidelock that clearly shows only the Francotte stamp. I have not removed the stock to see what, if any, makers stamp is on the back of the action body.

Interesting, is your gun from about the same time period?