Stumbled upon two vintage American guns in my preferred configuration with straight stocks and long barrels. Both are choked F/F but nothing else about them screams target/pigeon gun. They are both ~6 1/2lbs. Neither is exceedingly rare but they are rare enough that I wouldn’t want to alter their original chokes (assuming they are in fact still F/F). Would this choke combo deter you at all for upland hunting? Just throw a spreader load in one barrel? I hunted with a guy years ago who said he wouldn’t leave the house without at least one barrel being full choke.

I try to never hunt a gun without one barrel Full (except for waterfowl with steel). I have an Uggie sidelock 20 with 30” F/F and wouldn’t consider opening the chokes. Also a Parker VH 12 with 32” F/F that’s not changing. I prefer tight chokes, but I hunt mostly in the desert without a dog.

Don't leave the house without at least one barrel being full choke? Good advice. I can think of a couple scenarios where a full choke may not be the best choice, but it's a good generalization.

I also seriously doubt if a 6 1/2 lb. double was a pigeon gun. 3 3/4 - 1 1/4 loads usually don't go good with 6 1/2 lb. guns.

Nice catch. Pics?

SRH

Pass shooting ducks maybe, Turkeys of course. But otherwise, I can't think of a good use for double full chokes in a field gun. I am sure some would like it, just because there is always one person who wants something different, but no place where that would be the norm, yet guns were made that way for someone.

Were both guns owned by the same person? Were they custom ordered?

This comes up every so often, and it helps to understand not just the guns but the ammunition available when they were built.

Back in the 'day' there were no shot collars or plastic shot cups. Shot was generally 'chilled'.

A 'close shooting gun' was wanted by most, so full chokes were very common.

Only you can determine if you can use a full choke with modern ammunition to good effect in an upland situation with a light gun. I will state that 'Joe Average' cannot.

You can, however, easily load 'vintage' shells with fiber wads and chilled shot that will print modified patterns from those barrels without resorting to spreader inserts.

I would not let the chokes hold me back from purchasing the guns.

Handy for shooting ducks on the water.
Not so much in the woods.

Quail with a pointing dog and the relatively little heavy cover grouse and woodcock hunting I've done are the only places I would rather not use full choke. I have come to much prefer tighter chokes along with lighter loads.

One full is great, except with something like grouse.

Two however, sounds like a specialty gun or just something special for those guys that really a gun that "hits like Thor's Hammer !" etc, etc etc.

Everyone has an opinion about choke. McIntosh favored more open choking for upland hunting. Reading his work led me to Acquire a number of guns in the skeet/improved cylinder and improved cylinder/light modified combinations. As I got to be a little bit better hunter and shot, I begin to feel that the more open chokes Resulted in missed birds (especially wild pheasants). That led me to acquire a few guns in the M/F range. Then I discovered choke tubes and I purchased a couple of guns with numerous choke options. Even with all these guns, I keep missing birds, therefore I believe I will just have to continue acquiring more guns and different combinations and maybe I can Eventually solve the problem.

Vintage American guns?

Full and Full is certainly not rare. Frank Major Tobin, who built double guns at the turn of the previous century, noted most sports of the era requested full and full chokes, but, he felt they would be better served with more open chokes. This was around 1910.
Not much has changed, from what I have noted.

Best,
Ted

The Hunter Arms Company choked all their double guns full and full unless otherwise specified by the customer; so tight choked Smith guns certainly aren't a rarity, and I suspect most period American double gun makers had the same policy. In the tight coverts of N. Georgia a full choked gun would be a disadvantage; although not so much for dove shooting. I once owned a late (1904) vintage 12-bore Syracuse Arms 30" Damascus gun choked improved cylinder and full; it was a marvelous gun for dove shooting, and if the wind wasn't blowing I could actually hear the shot charge from the full choked barrel smack a dove when connecting on a long range shot. But the longest shot I ever made was at better than 75 yards on a running cottontail using a 20-bore Parker whose right barrel was cylinder bore. Two witnesses were astounded with the shot, which was pure dumb luck, but the autopsy revealed just one #6 pellet in a sweet spot. Personally I've killed lots of game using cylinder bore guns and don't feel the least bit handicapped using an open choke where I've hunted, but I've never hunted the wide open plains and wild pheasants either; had I done so I'm sure I'd have an entirely different opinion.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I should clarify I did NOT think these were pigeon guns nor do I think F/F is a rare combo on an early American SxS. The guns are a Parker DHE and a pre-1913 Smith and I consider them somewhat rare with straight stocks and longer barrels. Maybe hard to find is a better descriptor. I have never needed more than mod on upland hunts but that was hunting back east in tight cover. I can see benefits of one full barrel out west but two seems like a hindrance. I should just use it as an excuse to shoot more often!

I support Owen. Keep buying guns.

I think Owen has it correct. I tell my wife he suggested it!
Karl

Waterfowl non-tox has pretty much wiped out F/F guns. OK for turkeys, but hardcore turkey hunters seem to want even tighter chokes. Good old IC and M combination seems most useful for me...Geo

I knew I could count on this board and my take away is simply buy more guns! I can live with that. Now who is going to volunteer their number so when I get the eye roll from my better half for yet another gun in the cabinet she can reach out to discuss this impeccable reasoning?

For what it's worth, I also have a 1934 Parker DHE with 30"bbls. and F&F chokes. It's perfect for tower pheasant shoots.

Since I prefer shooting early 1870’s guns I say, “long live the cylinder bores”! Actually, for 95% of my shooting (quail and dove) I have no use for much more than IC and Mod. But then you gotta understand I’m a lousy shot and need all the pattern spread I can get!

I have constantly experimented with different chokes at Sporting. Amazed at hitting 40+ yard targets with no choke and very open chokes. Also amazed sometime at hitting close targets with tight chokes. Still unless you are extremely good, like George Digweed good I think Full C is a disadvantage.

As an old guy, who grew up with "full & full," I think those guns are vintage. I have found that getting chokes put into guns ends up having them choked "Skeet and I.C."
One old guys opinion.
Sam Ogle

I've got to agree. Many vintage guns marked "Full" have way to much constriction (for good patterns)in my opinion.

My favorite choke combo for western upland birds is .013/.025 (lm/f). I wouldn't dream of going chukar or hun hunting without a full choke in one barrel, no more than I would dream of going grouse or quail hunting with anything tighter than modified.

I've patterned many a doublegun with "very Full" chokes on my grease plate. I've never seen where, with good quality shot, full chokes hurt patterns. I've got doubles that are choked as much as .048", and they pattern beautifully. Competitors in "card shoots", where they compete to put as many pellets in a turkey target's head and neck as possible, use constrictions as tight as .640". From .729" to .640" is .089" constriction. With extreme amounts of constriction, the smaller the shot size the better, AFA patterns go. Anyway, no full choke vintage doublegun ever made has anywhere near that constriction, and the point is that competitive shooters wouldn't use a choke that ruined their patterns, when they're trying to win.

I love tight chokes for appropriate situations. They make you a much better shooter. One of my favorite dove guns is a 32" barreled 16 ga. LCS with Full and Full chokes. My hit averages with it are just as high as when I try to use a more open choked gun. And, the distances it kills doves dishrag dead deny that there's any pattern problems.

JMO, BOE, SRH

Stan, not everybody has your sight line concentration and trigger pull. I could fly fish...or use a grenade....the latter for me would be more effective. I've always wanted a SxS M-79 shooting flechettes.

Gene, I found out that tight chokes make you a better shooter by accident. I went from shooting a screw choked O/U, at registered sporting, to a fixed M and M choked O/U. There are many, many presentations that do not need a M choke to break the birds in competitive sporting. When I started shooting the M and M fixed chokes I was an A class shooter, and had plateaued in my attempt to gain Master class rating. I quickly punched up through AA to M with the tighter chokes. I shoot regularly with my buds who all change chokes "according to the situation", basically trying to use the most open choke they can get by with. For me, this introduces negative thoughts. If I do that I'm really saying to myself "I probably can't hit this bird every time with a M choke, so I'm going to put in a S (Skeet) choke constriction to cover my bases". Negative thoughts, and those thoughts are super-important, in competing or in hunting.

If you do a search on Shotgunworld about this you'll find many others who have found the same thing to be true for them.

Best, SRH

BTW, what's the bore size on that M79, 'bout 0 gauge?

It's a golf thing Stanley...I totally understand it.

By the way, I've asked Kirby Hoyt to try to find the "pair" to my 16 ga Reilly 27853 (which has all the attributes of a "bantam" "pigeon gun" including weight - for a 16 bore). My 16 bore is choked open and 1/2 and we speculated at the time that the chokes were opened-up. Terry Buffum's 12 bore SN 27854 with all the same characteristics, flat rib, weight, fences, etc...is choked full and full.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=557199&page=1

M-79 is 40mm - that's about 1.6 inches (1.57 caliber?) (obviously no chokes)....haven't clue how that would translate into "gauge".

Stanton, not Stanley.

Terry is a hunter, a waterfowler, AIR. Many of "us" (waterfowlers) who shoot vintage guns favor tighter chokes. Not all, but many.

SRH

My bad, I was thinking about Terry Lubzinski. Wish he would post more.

SRH

It depends on the percentage of targets you are willing to lose due to a thin pattern that will not break ALL the targets statistically.

A statistical certainty of a 100% score on long handicap trap targets didn't exist until the shot wrapper combined with hard shot made it's appearance.

Experiments show that 70% patterns at the plane of the target are required to assure the target breaks.

As you observe, a percentage (even a high percentage) of long-ish distance targets will be broken with more open chokes. They just won't ALL be broken, and this of course is what a serious competitive shooter requires.

What he said.

SRH

Argo it would probably easier to put a stock under a couple M-203's

FYI a 1 bore id 42.42 mm