The comment below was in regard to a two barrel set ( 20 ga / 28 ga) 1919 manufactured J.P.Sauer & Sohn Meisterwerk model 60 ( final step up from a grade 45- like a grade 375 Daly)
Does the “ high grade engineering “ of a pre war Sauer sidelock ( not a high grade) make it “ one of the best SxS double guns ever produced ?... but this gun, being a lowly boxlock, relegates it to a “ never to be achieved” quality level?
Reference statement begins here:
“ No offense taken, this particular gun is very nice, however it is a simple box lock gun, not a Best Side Lock gun. Although this gun is very very nice in reality it is not a best Side Lock German gun, no matter when it was made who who made it, the great engineering on this gun happens to be the Krupp barrels, both 20 and 28 gauge as indicated by Raimey. As I said before I would still love to own it. I own a couple Box Lock Combo Guns, and use them quite a bit, especially with the 28 barrels. There is nothing unusual about a J.P. Sauer Best Side Lock double gun, it's just very high grade engineering including the incredible Krupp Barrels, simply one of the Best made SXS Double guns ever produced. There has never been and never will be, a box lock best double gun, no matter who made it or when, the engineering is just not there to make it a best gun. Even the Westley Richards box lock or the LeFever box lock fine double guns, as much as I love them both, are not best guns, and neither is the nice combo gun we are talking about. “
Pine Creek Dave
Best regards,
JBP
Just let it go. Dave B. has a well established reputation for falsification, fabrication, and faux expertise; and has had some medical problems.
Sound advice from a respected source.
That was my initial thought too.
Best regards,
JBP
Somewhere on the hard drive in my head I think I remember reading that had the A&D boxlock been invented first they never would have gotten around to developing sidelocks.
My response would be “be polite to Dave”.
On the point of disagreement?
I lean toward what the marketplace decides.
Curiously, I’ve never heard a discussion by continental gun collectors regarding this question from a continental collectors perspective.
As the US are predominantly anglophiles, perhaps Germans are mostly Prussophiles?
Was this on the 28ga society? Seems the only board left for him.
With laughter and amusement, unfortunately no different than horses and used cars there are gun salesmen who lack something ( truth ) or have too much ( B.S ). You could contact them directly and question the statement’s validity, but you are likely wasting your time. If you are concerned that someone on that board lacks knowledge and may be deceived, then start a thread elsewhere on the board on what constitutes a best gun in the marketplace and What is not.
We can’t fix everything regardless of right.
So, am I to understand that, as an example, a Lindner Daly Diamond or Regent grade are not and never can be “best” guns? Give me a break!
Agreed, just let it go.....stupidity is the one disease that has never had a cure.
Was this on the 28ga society? Seems the only board left for him.
He has become a dominant poster over 16 Gauge Society.
Shotgun world/
“ I love my German guns” forum
1919 Sauer topic
Was this on the 28ga society? Seems the only board left for him.
He has become a dominant poster over 16 Gauge Society.
Explains why he is always yammin about the 16 in a 28 forum!
Opinions like that are just a valuable to me as an extra anal orifice. One is enough but when you find a big one they just seem to run on and on trying to impress you with their bending over backwards for your benefit.
I have seen many a side lock dog that I would not bother picking up off the ground and more than a few non side locks that I almost drool over. But to each their own. If you like it, enjoy it and be happy. Otherwise, just STFU as they use to say when I was younger.
He's planted himself at 16ga.com. Guys there are mostly noncompetitive types, hunters, some-but not much fine gun savvy, and he has found a safe haven. I'm nowhere near as active there as I used to be.
He's planted himself at 16ga.com. Guys there are mostly noncompetitive types, hunters, some-but not much fine gun savvy, and he has found a safe haven. I'm nowhere near as active there as I used to be.
Dave, I don't know if the two are connected for you, but they are for me. Don't post or read there nearly as much as I used to. I check in about once a week now to read wyochuker's threads and see if there are any interesting SxS threads that appear. I can only take so much pompous bloviation in a week.
There's always been one or two who emerge over there craving recognition. I tune them out.
Just my opinion, but I'd say the Sauer in question is orders of magnitude nicer than a restocked 00 Smith with a polished frame.
There's always been one or two who emerge over there craving recognition. I tune them out.
Dave, is 16ga Guy still around? He is/was a character. Used to talk about pheasant hunting in MA--where they have something like an 8 bird season limit. Goes back to when Iowa was leading the pack in annual pheasant harvest. Told him I thought that sounded like a good long weekend in IA. He added that he also hunted ringnecks in Rhode Island.
Re the original post, I would guess that smallbore Grade 60's are pretty darned rare. I just acquired a nice Grade 40 16ga. Maybe I've missed some high grade examples, but while Sauer sidelocks are nice, the ones I've seen haven't had a lot of engraving. By the time you get to the Grade 40's, you've got incredible deep relief engraving (and mine doesn't even have any rabbits--only game birds and dogs!) And according to Jeff Stephens, who wrote the DGJ article on scalloped Sauer boxlocks (Summer 2004), he'd seen only 2 Grade 40's in 16ga, and 3 in 20ga. He added that the 60's are more commonly seen than the 45's, so maybe there are a few more of them as smallbores, but I can't imagine there are very many.
Does rare equate to "best"?
I have a Union firearms do was around here someplace.lol
Is a V L & D Knockabout Sauer sidelock or a sauer made Manhattan Arms sidelock a “ Best” because of the “ superior engineering “ over a pre war Sauer mo. 18 A&D based boxlock, rare or otherwise? I think that was the presumption.
JBP
One Manhattan Arms gun I found at Allentown and did not buy was an exceptional example. I am also chasing a Grade 40 Sauer that, because of its 32" barrels, is an unusual find. I am not wedded to the "sidelock" mystique to eliminate great boxlocks from my collection. For an example, I own a Parker.
The opinion expressed about a J.P.Sauer & Sohn Meisterwerk model 60 by Pine Creek Dave is in no way offensive or threatening to anyone. It is simply his opinion. And while I don't necessarily agree, it is not as far off the mark as many of the opinions we see expressed right here on a regular basis.
Some folks seem to think Pine Creek Dave has psychological problems. But so far, he hasn't been crazy and deranged enough to suggest that gun owners should elect anti-2nd Amendment Liberal Democrats with a 100% anti-gun voting records. I think there are better targets for criticism and derision than Dave.
"Opinion--Judgement or belief based on grounds short of proof"--OED. Varying about Sauers all over the world, as they are expressed by US governance on the Second by tens of thousands every day.
The difference being that the Supreme Court has ruled that the 2nd Amendment provides for an individual right to keep and bear arms and that is the law of the land. To my knowledge, they have expressed no opinion with respect to the merits of Sauer shotguns.
Except that the law of the land is interpreted by jurisdictions in different ways as expressions of will of the people they represent. Opinions, again.
No, that is not correct. A ruling by the Supreme Court has the force of law. It is not just an opinion. The fact that some lower courts choose to interpret the ruling inconsistently does not change that fact. If enough of those lower courts rule inconsistently with the Supreme Court's ruling, eventually the Court will grant cert. in another case and clarify its ruling. We are overdue for such a 2nd Amendment ruling by the Supremes.
"Opinion--Judgement or belief based on grounds short of proof"--OED. Varying about Sauers all over the world, as they are expressed by US governance on the Second by tens of thousands every day.
Except that the law of the land is interpreted by jurisdictions in different ways as expressions of will of the people they represent. Opinions, again.
This is an example of why the opinion made by Pine Creek Dave is not nearly as ridiculous or threatening as the opinion frequently expressed by King Brown, that the 2nd Amendment does not protect our Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Even the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on this subject in two landmark decisions in 2008 and 2010 has not stopped King from his opinion that the 2nd Amendment does not protect our Individual Gun Rights.
Is King Brown an Anti-Gunner? It is well known that the foreigner King Brown has used this forum for years to voice his anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment views. And right now, we have rocky mtn bill starting a new political thread concerning his thought that we should support the Liberal Left Democrats who hate all guns, simply because Billy does not want law abiding U.S. citizens to own or shoot the semi-auto rifles that he dislikes.
Sorry folks, but we have bigger fish to fry than being critical of a Viet Nam Veteran like Pine Creek Dave. Dave is no threat to our Constitutional Rights. Dave served in the U.S. Military defending our rights. Then you have fools like King and rocky mtn bill who work to help anti-gun Democrats eliminate those rights.
One Manhattan Arms gun I found at Allentown and did not buy was an exceptional example. I am also chasing a Grade 40 Sauer that, because of its 32" barrels, is an unusual find. I am not wedded to the "sidelock" mystique to eliminate great boxlocks from my collection. For an example, I own a Parker.
here is a 1920 sauer double with 34" barrels for sale …. a bit beat up looking..... interesting though. not mine or anything to do with me
http://www.german-gun-imports.com/Gunsmith-Guns/Special-Guns/scroll down and click on it and it shows several pictures
Does rare equate to "best"?
I have a Union firearms do was around here someplace.lol
Certainly not always. But the high grade Sauer boxlocks--certainly Grade 40 on up--are all very nice guns. The rarity factor comes into play with the smallbores. Doesn't make them better, but results in higher prices. Much like comparing a 28ga Parker, any model, to a 12ga, same model, similar condition.
There's always been one or two who emerge over there craving recognition. I tune them out.
Dave, is 16ga Guy still around? He is/was a character. Used to talk about pheasant hunting in MA--where they have something like an 8 bird season limit.. He added that he also hunted ringnecks in Rhode Island.
No. 1, MA never had a limit of more than 2 cock birds per day, since the 50's when I started hunting in MA.
No. 2. Most likely he left off the name of the place in Rhode Island where he hunts pheasants... and where they may not even have a limit, if you brought enough money.... Addieville East Preasant Farms.
Except that the law of the land is interpreted by jurisdictions in different ways as expressions of will of the people they represent. Opinions, again.
No "jurisdiction" can pre-empt or overrule the US Constitution.
And thanks to President Donald J. Trump, an overturning or altering of our second amendment, we should not expect to see such subversive behavior for the duration of most of our lifetimes.
No "jurisdiction" can pre-empt or overrule the US Constitution.
People’s Republic of Kalifornia is giving it a good try. Bunch of leftist bozos running this place.
The guy who could spot Citori 16 barrel regulation problems by looking through them at the store? He's either croaked or moved on. He was "all things technical" to the board. Beans is all things traditional. So blessed to have such experts.
Only "one" Paaarkaaa? Humm-- I find that hard to believe, E-Bore. Hope it's not the one SBT with a shortened barrel and wearing a Cutts Comp. RWTF