I filled in at the old digs for a day on Monday and got to go over several guns that Mark has in the shop at the moment. The most interesting one (by a wide margin) was the 2 barrel cased A1-Special he had just posted on Saturday last. For a "reproduction", this unit is pretty special. In an era where 12 gauge boxlocks are not getting much love, this gun was generating significant interest. The English stock had been lengthened by the previous owner by adding a 1" leather-covered pad (with the skeleton butt-plate being removed and evidently lost) but... it is/was remarkably nice otherwise. It's still on the MWReynolds webpage this morning. I've seen several Parker reproductions over the years and was generally well-impressed with them but this one is a cut above.

Nice looking repro. The engraving looks like a standard A1, but the case colors look like they are bone charcoal (or Mark used different lighting). The wood is very nice. The DT are rather hard to find on the A1 repros.

Ken

That is one special stick of wood on that repro!

It's really shame the owner choose to remove the Skeleton butt plate & add the leather covered pad. The gun would have been much more attractive with the plate. I would probably be down at Mark's trying to cut a deal on that gun if it wasn't for the pad!

Personal taste, but it's a better shooting gun with the pad. Surely, a skeleton buttplate is a thing of beauty, but slides around on your shoulder. Doesn't matter on a Japanese Parker...
JR

The fellow who was largely responsible for the creation of these lovely reproductions called the shop while I was there. A gentleman of the old school, he now collects the better examples of his works and this gun was something he was interested in. The altered stock was a big disappointment for him but he gladly shared his story about how these guns came into being. Olin-Kadensha (hope I'm spelling that right) and Winchester and his almost unused 1930s original A-1 were the components that started it all back in the late 80s. A serious Parker guy, for sure.

Jack Skeuse, owner of White Flyer Targets.
JR

Owner of Reagent Chemical Corp - White Flyer was a small offshoot of Reagent.

Jack actually sent several of his high original-condition Parkers to Olin Kodensha to be duplicated.

Wasn't it Tom Skeuse rather than Jack Skeuse that started it all?

It absolutely does matter . . . on several levels.

Ok, one level is enough, so let's hear it.
JR

Resale value.

It's already re-color case hardened. Plenty of buyers would prefer the nice leather-covered pad over the sbp. I certainly would.

Parker Repro buyers are shooters, not collectors. Originality matters very little.
JR

I have guns with and without pads. Some applications, like quail or woodcock I like no pad because it is faster for me. Duck guns need pads and dove guns or target guns are better for it.

One thing for sure though, a shotgun without a pad is going to slip and fall off whatever you lean it against sooner or later...Geo

Geo., no doubt there's a goodly number of folks that will agree with you, but you're veering off point here. What we're talking about is whacking off the SSBP from a Parker Reproduction to install a nice leather-covered recoil pad. Not only will one pay a craftsman ~$300.00 - $500.00 for the pad and installation you'll also take another ~$500.00, or more, hit should you try to resell the gun. The net result could be that it cost you $1000.00 for that nice leather-covered pad. Not to mention your pool of potential buyers will be greatly reduced; unless of course you can find someone that doesn't value resalability and/or originality.

Let’s not ignore the fact that original owner “lengthened the stock” with that pad. I don’t like pads on my guns, but if they need extra length, they get pads. Not much you can do to save a SSBP in that scenario.

There are other options to save the original butt and lengthen the pull. Leather lace-ons have done the trick for me and thousands of others for a long, long time.

They may be beneath the dignity of some, but not me.

SRH

Wild Skies, no doubt you are right. Hard for me to think of Parker Repros being collectibles when I've seen them go from being inventory reduction sale items...Geo

No, what we're talking about is THIS particular gun. This is a hell of a nice gun as is, and originality is not a consideration on this gun. I actually would rather have this gun with the redone case colors and the pad than an all-original version.

There's a ton of Parker Repros out there, way too many to worry about resale values or high original condition. The market on them is very soft as well. I haven't owned but 8 of them over the years, but I think I'm right on this. Ymmv.
JR

How do you know Geo. that Parker Reproductions will not rise to collector status in the future? Some models are already considered collectible. Yes, there may be a contingent that hold some prejudices against the Repros, but their numbers are dwindling. There was a day when mid to high grade or smallbore Meriden-built Parkers weren't collectible -- look at them today -- one may have to mortgage their home in order to acquire one!

Then you have well respected gun writers like Dewey Vicknair and/or David Trevallion touting Parker Reproductions. Trevallion with his The Parker Reproduction Story in the Jan/Feb 2019 issue of SHOOTING SPORTSMAN where he writes "Parker Reproduction guns were in every respect equal - if not superior - to the originals." Articles written now and in the future about Parker Reproductions by such individuals with credentials like those mentioned above will create demand and drive collectibility to those coming after us...and it will be the original and highest conditioned Repros that will be most valuable.

Well they may not be considered as "collectibles" , but are nice guns. Price wise dealers seem to treat BHE and A-1s as collectible. Seems like the classic straight stock, splinter forend, and especially double triggers are sort of scarce.

The pad does kind of ruin this gun for me. Having said that I do wish the Repros used longer stocks so I understand why a pad was added. I bet if the SSBP was on it it would be priced higher.

Appears to be sold already.
So much for the pad limiting saleability.

I don't believe there are "collectable" Japanese Parkers, just desirable shooters to some extent, some more so than others. The quality and execution of these guns is outstanding, but you have no way of proving they are collectable, especially by the use of the phrase "considered collectable". I have no way of proving there are no Parker Repro collectors out there, but I'm open to hearing about even one. Accumulators who shoot them, sure.

Nobody can predict the future, but the trend for these guns is toward nice shooters, and the market for them is mediocre at best. There could be an exception with some rare version in, say, a BHE .410 with 28" barrels that very few of which were made, but otherwise practically none in other gauges.

Trying to defend the need for originality to preserve value in these guns due to their desirable and high status as personal museum pieces is wasted time and effort.

I'm resting my case.
JR

I never worry about resale value on any of my guns. I only buy. I never sell. The pad on the gun in question would not deter me from buying it for one minute. If it affects the collector interest and I could get the gun for $500 less as a result, mores the better.

Pads are useful to me to help tame recoil or lengthen pull. If I buy a gun without a pad and the LOP is too short, I wouldn't hesitate to put a nice pad on it. But I do use the leather lace on pads a fair amount too. To each his own.

I never understood the notion that a reproduction of something (Browning model 12, Parker reproduction) would eventually be collectible in and of itself. It seems to me that anything marketed as “collectable “, really isn’t. I can’t wrap my head around the idea that ANYTHING built in the Far East, at least since the Ming dynasty, is collectable.
That said, people collect strange things.

If someone here bought the gun, do use it in good health. Hard to believe those Parker reproduction have been around long enough to be re-case colored.

Best.
Ted

It didn't take them long to NEED re-case coloring...Geo

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't look at Parker Reproductions as something made in Japan in the same light as many other products that came out of Japan. After all, weren't they designed by an American born in the U.S.A.? Weren't they the brainchild of an American born in the U.S.A.? Weren't they built by an American company headquartered in the U.S.A. (albeit utilizing a production facility located in Japan)? Wasn't the stock wood supplied by an American company located in the U.S.A.? Weren't they marketed by an American company located in the U.S.A.? Weren't they sold through a network of American dealers located in the U.S.A.?

Furthermore, Parker Reproduction cases were made in Italy and the snap caps were made in England.

If anything, given the U.S.A., Japan, Italy and England connections, Parker Reproductions was/is an international endeavor with worldwide reaching proportions to be enjoyed and collected by many generations yet to come . . . and they're here for us right now.

Just because YOU don't understand how something can be considered collectable, doesn't mean they don't exist. There are all kinds of collectors in this big wide world we live in. There are collectors of women's panties found on clotheslines, there are collectors of Japanese swords, there are collectors of Parker Bros. guns and yes, there are collectors of Parker Reproductions -- lots of 'em!

I know of at least one Parker Reproduction collector (known as an accumulator in some circles ) that would be very interested in finding:
* Just one example of a .410 on a 00-frame in any grade (a single gun -- not one that is part of a 28/.410 bi-gauge set).
* Just one example of any 20 or 28-ga. w/28" bbls. factory choked IC/M in any grade.
* Just one example of a 12-ga. w/28" bbls. that is factory choked Q1/Q2 in any grade.
* Any Sporting Clays Classic model with a straight grip, splinter forend and double triggers (beyond the two known to exist).

By all means, collect what you will. I already noted that people collect all sorts of strange things. I know where there is a 120 year collection of medical volumes on the single subject of bullet wound pathology.
It isn’t at my house.
I probably should mention that I don't consider original Parker shotguns to be anything special, not since a European gunsmith had one apart on his bench and wondered aloud about “what is all this stuff that is in here for?” I couldn’t honestly disagree with his assessment.

I think Mr. Roberts came down solidly in the reality of the whole picture.

Reality is a good place to be when making purchasing decisions.

Best,
Ted

What is it about the subject gun that several posters to this thread claim this gun has been re-case color hardened?

Really? It's glaringly obvious to anyone who knows Parker Repros and case coloring. This gun has gorgeous cc, whereas the factory cc on PR's, not so much. Dang...
JR

Are you absolutely 100% sure that it was re-case color hardened?

No one here is arguing the colors on this subject gun aren't gorgeous.

The seller claims this A-1 Special is one of the custom engraved guns, yet it appears to be adorned with the standard engraving pattern of the factory-engraved A-1 Specials. But, for the sake of discussion, let's assume the seller is correct in that it was custom engraved. Custom Engraved A-1 Specials came into the Middlesex, NJ custom shop for Gournet or possibly others to engrave, one can assume these guns were in-the-white (not to be confused with the Galazan liquidated in-the-white A-1 Specials) and thus were not case colored until after they were custom engraved. If that's the case, this gun may have its original case color finish--and not re-case color hardened, eh?

I have a Parker Reproduction brochure that features the A-1 Specials and it states within the brochure "The frame is case hardened using the same methods as original Parkers..." Granted, those words do not say bone charcoal, but we do know that original Parkers utilized the bone charcoal process.

The Remington-era Parkers were cyanide colored, as were the factory Repros. Custom Repros may have been done differently.

As you undoubtedly know and per The Parker Story, Remington acquired the Parker Bros. gun business in 1934. They continued using the bone and wood charcoal casehardening process on all Parker guns made and assembled until ceasing operations in 1942. After World War II Remington replaced the bone and wood charcoal process with a cyanide process for all its casehardening work. There weren't a lot of Remington Parkers produced with the cyanide finish.

It's also arguable exactly how factory standard Repros were casecolored. Some say cyanide, others have opined some type of stain -- JR will let us know definitively.

The case hardening on the two Repros (DHE) I had came off very, very quickly. Almost as if it was some sort of coating, basically sort of worthless. I have never put much store in it as any indication of gun usage.

I have watched this thread and its various tangents for some time. The question that interested me most was that of the "Repro Collectiblility". I venture the following observation: It maters not if the Parker Repro, the Ithaca Classic Double or the CSMC Foxes are "collectible" or not. The question is; are these guns worth significantly more if in original unfired condition?
AND THE ANSWER IS UNQUESTIONABLY YES!
Therefor: for those of us who are collectors it makes sense to keep these guns as pristine as possible.
I have some of each that are shooters and others that I preserve.
Bob Jurewicz