I just saw this Bonehill boxlock for sale at auction (morphy).

For the life of me I can't figure out what "L" and "D" indicators would mean. Figured that certainly someone here would know.

Cocking indicators

Total guess: Locked & Discharged

That seems like a good guess.

I had a Bonehill just like that. I agree with Bsteele.

Is it a single selectable trigger?
If so then might be Levo and dextro. (Organic chemistry was not wasted on me.) Sort of Latin for to the left and to the right.

Edit: should have paid more attention to the "double trigger" in title.

MMmmm ? Then what is the little button near the L ?

My Simson Suhl DR has such buttons/pins on each side of the action and they indicate whether the action/hammers are cocked or fired.
Simson saw no need for a labelled pointer -- just pin in or pin out.

MMmmm ? Then what is the little button near the L ?

My Simson Suhl DR has such buttons/pins on each side of the action and they indicate whether the action/hammers are cocked or fired.
Simson saw no need for a labelled pointer -- just pin in or pin out.

That little "button" near the L is the axle pin for the triggers.

I agree that this a a cocking indicator on the hammer axle pin that points to L for locked (cocked in modern terminology) and D for discharged.

Cocking indicators long ago went away on box lock guns but were retained on many side lock guns in the form of a mark on the hammer axle such as an engraved arrow, gold line (my AyA's), raised ridge (my wife's Grulla) or similar.

Hmm, am quite familiar with cocking indicators but (as with your Simson) not with the D and L nomenclature. I was throwing out an idea in case left and right made any sense. Not so, obviously, if the other side of the action has the same device. Organic chemistry study may have been a waste after-all.

Not to be picky the that would be the sear pin, the trigger pin is located farther to the rear.

Here's another like it.

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/12675997

Oops! Steve, you got me I made a boo boo on that one. But I think I am correct on the hammer pin.

I think the L and D were meant to indicate Loaded and Discharged.

Could it be a selector for extraction/ejection? The Dickson patent of 1887 used an ejector rod that extended to the rear of the action and was caught on a step. When the gun was opened a tumbler would lift the rod off the step where it could fly forward. With this switch to the rear of the action perhaps it's some sort of selector.

Notice the screw doesn’t go into the action but the indicator is one piece and surrounds the hammer axles. The screw has to lock the indicator tightly to the axle. Very similar to the continental indicators often seen.

You are correct, I mis-read the statement by bsteele earlier. That is definitely a cocking indicator.

If you look at the link that I posted you'll be able to see one of these guns with a missing indicator - and you will see the side of the action without the indicator.

Click that link and have a look

I'm with you. No way for it to indicate that a live shell is in the chamber (loaded), only that the lock is cocked.

SRH

That is the hammer axle pin with the “cocking indicator” (or whatever it turns out to be). The sear pin is farther back & the trigger axle pin isn’t visible from the outside on anything I’ve seen.

SKB, Not wishing to be contrarian for The sake of it but I must state that on every Birmingham boxlock I ever worked on the sear pin was always behind (rearmost) of the tumbler (hammer) . The cocking lever being the forward pin. The trigger pin would be inside on the bottom metal.

I would agree with everything you wrote.

The tiny screw must connect the indicator to the tumbler and for it to work it must have a semi circular channel cut into the action body.

Seems rather silly to make such a cut and weaken the action at its most stressed part.

No need for Mea Culpa's FlyChamps...

Queen Stevie wasn't willing to admit that he couldn't tell the difference between a feather crotch black walnut blank that had no figure in the head area, and a finished stock made from thin-shelled walnut that had totally different grain and figure:





Queen Stevie's gun stock expertise can be seen here in post #560068 in this thread:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=559819&page=1

So why did you post incorrect information about the location of pins earlier Queen Stevie?

Looks like you could use either a little book learning, or some actual experience... or both!

My statement was correct but worded differently than Hugh made his statement.

Must suck being as dumb as Billie k.

Still dumb.

Still wrong, still Billie k.

I think Billie is upset because his complete lack of experience has been exposed.

Book smart Billie is really not nearly as smart as he would like the board to think.

Right Queen Stevie... and that's why Hugh corrected you. Because he knew you were correct.

It doesn't take much book learned knowledge to see the difference between feather crotch black walnut and thin shell walnut with totally different grain and figure either. Even after I explained the differences to you, you still were too dumb to tell. You really showed all of us your gun stock expertise there too.

Tell us, is it better to be book smart... or perpetually dumb like you are?

I think Billie k is upset he because tried proving me wrong in the stock blank thread and failed miserably. Poor little Billie k and his fragile ego.

Please point out exactly what I wrote that was wrong. The pin I identified is indeed the sear pin and the trigger pin is indeed to the rear but I did not state as Hugh did that it is located in the triggerplate.

Book read Billie k....still wrong, still dumb, still Billie k.

You didn't prove me wrong in the recent stock blank thread Queen Stevie.

You merely proved that you believed a number of internet sources that incorrectly define rift sawn lumber.

Those sources say that rift sawn lumber is cut perpendicular to the growth rings, yet they also say that rift sawn lumber shows end grain 30 to 60 degrees to the faces of the board or blank. You say that 45 degrees is the ideal. You cannot have it both ways... unless you are just too dumb to think, and are just a parrot.


https://www.advantagelumber.com/sawn-lumber/

https://www.advantagelumber.com/sawn-lumber/rift-sawn.html


That isn't perpendicular to the growth rings, but you are too stupid to see the discrepancy. So tell us more about all of your practical experience in farming out actual gunsmithing work, since you have no book learned knowledge.

As I thought....you could not point out anything incorrect in my statement in this post and you are still wrong about rift cut stock blanks.

My favorite part of that exchange was when you said KY Jon was wrong. He has forgotten more about stocking guns and wood blanks than you will ever know. Jon learned through doing, something you do not have the skill set for.

Book smart Billie k, but never stocked a gun. Boy are we lucky an expert such as yourself graces us with your hard gained knowledge.

What a poser.

You say that I have never stocked a gun, but that is totally untrue. KY Jon was absolutely wrong when he repeated the incorrect definition of rift sawn lumber as having the growth rings 30 to 60 degrees to the face of the board or blank. The rest of his statement was correct, and I said so.

Meanwhile, we have you posing as a gunsmith when you screwed up and openly admitted to farming out much of the work you charge customers to do to real gunsmiths.... while you spend all day here showing us how dumb you really are.

Easy to see just who is the poseur.

why must you lie so much?

growth rings on the end grain at 45 degrees would be a text book example of a rift sawn blank, just like I posted a picture of.

I work with another gunmaker or two, not uncommon in the trade. I do far more in house than most gunmakers. You have been explained how the trade works repeatedly yet you try to twist things for your own sad purposes.

Too bad your ego is so fragile. I would LOVE to see your stock work.

Easy to see indeed....pages and pages of my work for the world to view.

Here are a couple CORRECT definitions of rift sawing for you Queen Stevie... even though you wish to cling to the oft-stated incorrect definition of rift sawn lumber.


https://www.advantagelumber.com/sawn-lumber/

https://www.advantagelumber.com/sawn-lumber/rift-sawn.html

Many sources also tell us that rift sawn lumber is more expensive because so much of the log ends up as waste. But the cut illustration your pal BrentD produced to try to save you from your stupidity would generate no more waste than quartersawn.

I don't believe everything I read on the internet. And when someone tells me something that is contradicted by their next sentence, I am intelligent enough to take note of it and look for the correct answer. You are not. And neither was BrentD when he responded to my post about rift sawing with an incorrect illustration. We all saw that same tendency in BrentD when he refused to explain all of the wildly varying statements made concerning what constitutes a lethal dose of lead in the blood of waterfowl that is quoted in the anti-lead ammunition junk science he clings to. Rather than admit he might be wrong, that was when he decided to pretend to IGNORE my posts... which is another joke.

Billie you seem determined to remain wrong. Maybe pop over to hunterbid.com and look at his blanks and descriptions, he has been in business for decades and sold thousands of blanks, I bet you know more than him though. After all, you did read about it on the It internet.

What you are too thick to understand and what Craig fully gets

"seems to me there are milling definitions for the sawing process and descriptions of board stock. I happen to be using the description of the board stock" As do buyers and sellers of stock blanks.

Any pictures of your work for the board to see?

Darn that fragile ego is in the way again I bet.

I did take note of craigd's statement about two radically differing definitions of what constitutes rift sawing.

Unfortunately, that differing definition stems from the total contradiction where it is often stated that rift sawn lumber has the growth rings PERPENDICULAR to the face of the board, and also says that rift sawn lumber shows end grain 30 to 60 degrees to the face of the board. I have seen that same contradiction in terms myself many times. Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how you slice it.



I know you want to have it both ways, but until the math world changes the definition of PERPENDICULAR to meaning some angle from 30 to 60 degrees to the face, then you will continue to be wrong. If Hunterbid is another wood seller using incorrect terminology and charging rift-sawn prices for wood that is not actually rift-sawn, that's fine too. But calling lumber rift-sawn when it clearly is not rift-sawn will not make it so. You are only demonstrating that you are incapable of thought, and have no brain.

We already knew that.

Did you happen to also notice that craigd told Brent that there is no way that a log could be cut as shown in his ridiculous illustration? craigd was absolutely right about that. Is it you fragile ego, or your lack of intelligence that caused you to overlook that?

As far as posting pictures of my work... perhaps you are just too stupid to remember why I do not post any here. I gave the explanation to your friend canvasback when he incorrectly told us he had seen pics of my rust bluing here, and that was why he asked me to rust blue barrels for him, instead of giving the work to you. He used to send barrels to Doug Woodin PA24 instead of you. I believe he chooses CJO for that work over you since Doug passed away. I think we know the reason.

I've been trying to work this out: how does that screw lock the indicator to the hammer pin? Seems like the screw is in the wrong place for that. But I'm pretty sure I'm missing something.

Ah yes, our book smart expert knows more than folks who have been in the trade for decades.

You remain wrong and try as you might, you have failed to prove me wrong but quite nicely showed just how ignorant you are.

I knew you did not have the fortitude to show pictures of your work but that is understandable, you do not want the board to see your actual skill level.


Bullshit is something you are well versed in, it is all you are able to spew.

I never claimed to know more than real gunsmiths, not counting gun-farming general contractors like you Queen Stevie.

I quite obviously do know more than you about saw milling wood into lumber. And It is hilarious to see you calling yourself an expert when you fell on your face when you had the chance to show us that you knew the difference between feather crotch black walnut and thin shell walnut. It didn't take being book smart to know the blank Bob Cash showed us was not the same wood as the finished stock he showed us.

But I could see how you might be stupid enough to fail that simple test miserably. Others failed too, but you're the great "expert" that has been in the trade for decades. What a joke.

I see you do not wish to revisit why your friend canvasback would choose me or other people to do rust bluing for him instead of you, who he said is one of his best friend's on this forum. I guess he works hard for his money, and simply wants good work that is not sub-contracted to a real gunsmith.

You were asked a simple question about how 30 to 60 degrees can ever be PERPENDICULAR. And predictably, you avoided that question. That picture in my last post is real rift-sawn end grain. If someone sells you rift-sawn wood with end grain at or near 45 degrees to the face, then you have been cheated and lied to. But you are too dumb to know, so ignorance is bliss.

I enjoy you putting your ignorance on full display.....that is NOT a picture of rift sawn end grain when referring to that board. It could have been milled rift, the board is not rift sawn. Exactly what Craig tried to explain to you very politely but you are too stupid to understand. How it was milled does not matter, what matters is the grain flow on the individual board.

I am starting to feel sorry for you and you lack of intellect.

Take a look at the link I posted earlier in this thread.
There's images of one of these guns, but with the indicator missing from one side of the gun.
It'll show the area under that screw.
I thought it was interesting.

I have to save that statement Queen Stevie, because it is among the most retarded bullshit ever posted here.

If it helps, I think the board is some species of oak. If you go to the link I provided earlier, where the picture came from, you will see that it is absolutely described as rift-sawn lumber, and the pic is labeled as an end grain view. Anything more about how it was milled is obviously WAY beyond your comprehension. Maybe try putting down the bong, and read what you wrote when you aren't so addled. But seriously, I think your brain damage is permanent.

Please start a new thread on grain flow in stock blanks. No need to pollute this thread any further with your ignorance.

Thanks! I missed that somehow.
Looks like a slot for the screw to sit in. I'm still not sure that it makes sense that the screw could be holding the indicator dial to the hammer pin itself. Maybe there was a nut on the other end of the screw to stabilize the dial on the face of the action?
In going to stare at that photo a little longer and see if I can figure it out.

If anyone has the time or inclination to look up the Bonehill Patent of 1878 for his design of a hammerless action, there may be reference to this indicator on the side of the action. Presumably the pointer is affixed to the tumbler pin/axle (just guessin').

Why? What difference will it make Queen Stevie? A new thread will not teach you to read, nor will it turn 30-60 degree end grain into PERPENDICULAR.

All the information you need is right here. All you need is the intelligence to process it...

But just like not being able to see the obvious difference between Bob Cash's feather crotch black walnut blank, and a finished stock of thin shell walnut, you are too stupid to process information, and too spineless to admit being wrong.

I'll start the new thread another time. It will be fun to give you another chance to demonstrate your stupidity, and to also demonstrate how you run and hide from things.

I know that post was not intended for me, but it got me thinking:. my recent post about stock blanks elicited a variety of responses, some directly conflicting one another. This gave me an idea for another thread. What I had in mind is finding stock blanks for sale online and getting opinions on things like species, grain flow, figure and defects. I'm not sure how much interest there would be, but it would be educational for me at least, and I suspect there are others who would benefit as well.

You are indeed quite correct Mr. greener, that is no A&D boxlock. I tried to look at the link Tinkerer provided yesterday and it would not load, today it did. Pretty good pictures in Crudington and Baker volume 2 as well. I tried to scan the pics but it did not come out well, pg. 90 and 91 in the 1989 edition. I was completely wrong about the gun being a typical boxlock, though it appears that both the sear and the hammer position remain consistent the A&D design and the main difference is how the barrels manage to cock the hammers.

Do it Jim.

Here's the picture Tinker is referencing:

The indicator screws into the hammer and rotates with it around the hammer pin it appears.

It has been a long time since I have seen one of those Bonehill guns.

Woodreaux thanks for the pic. It confirms the suspcion that there is a semi circular slot for the screw to rotate.

Other than a selling point, I cannot see any technical advantage to such an indicator, especially when it necessitates removing metal from that particular area.

Of course you were completely wrong. And all it took was reading a book and a web source to understand and know it. Imagine that!

A little book knowledge can be an amazingly useful thing, so long as the book is accurate and correct. I have always considered my library of gunsmithing, and related books on wood and metal-working, to be among my most valuable tools. Same goes for the electrical, computer, or hydraulic work I do in my day job.

But with so much misinformation concerning methods of saw milling logs into lumber, and especially what constitutes rift-sawn lumber, I doubt you will ever be able to see and digest the facts... even with the total contradictions I have repeatedly and specifically pointed out to you. That's because you can become book smart without ever having the intelligence to process what you read and regurgitate. Being born with a low I.Q. is like being born without hands. You can never change it.

Start a new thread to full display your ignorance, you see both Hugh and I did not notice that this gun is a different patent because you can not see the front of the gun in the picture.

Poor Billie still does not understand stock blanks after at least three different people explained it to him. It must really suck to be so stupid as to think the whole world is wrong and you are correct. Though you did read an article on the internet, on a related but not exactly the same subject.

Please educated the gun trade on how it has been done wrong for decades Billie k.

You really are a special individual.

The gun trade has not all been wrong about grain orientation in stock blanks Queen Stevie. Neither is the whole world. But you are. And that is why you feel the pathetic need to lie, and attempt to say that the sum of my knowledge on the subject comes from an internet article.

How does it feel to go through life as a gutless and dishonest coward? Don't worry though. There are still plenty of Libtards who think you have credibility. And why do you continue to run from so many things, such as your inability to pass a fairly easy walnut species identification test???... even after I had pointed out all of the discrepancies between Bob Cash's blank and his finished stock?

Bob was able to man-up and admit being wrong. But you keep putting your tail between your legs and trying to run away from your failure to see the obvious. No wonder you can't get it, and probably never will.

Are you getting much work done today??? Or am I interfering with you sub-contracting real gunsmith's to do the work your customers pay you to do?

I would really enjoy an on-going wood blank tutorial kind of thread. Great idea.

I can start a thread later in the day and post some examples.

Yeah over engineered for what? Seems like a unwanted expense.

A hold over from the hammergun period. Some buyers liked to know if a hammerless gun was cocked by simply looking at without breaking the gun open. You still see them on many sidelocks today. I doubt the cocking indicators added much to the cost of the gun due to labor costs of the day.

I am not saying it is so, but cocking indicators, well executed, could be a best gun distinguishing feature on a boxlock.

Not saying so, either, craig, but a glance at my 1914 J.P. Sauer 16ga boxlock Model VIII with cocking indicators would tend to thinking similarly.