Not much else to do here in the desert. It is almost impossible to shoot at Ben Avery, still can't swim at the neighborhood fitness club, and "church" is still on-line SO, might as well discuss flinching. Words (should) have meaning, and the more precise we are with our words, the better we communicate; our thoughts, our problem, our needs, and corrective measures we might try.

Links to previous threads on Trapshooters.com are here, and with more good and very bad information than anyone probably wants to review
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/what-causes-a-flinch.860907/

"Target Panic" in archers; "Yips" in golfers; "Cueitis" in billiards; "Dartitis" in dart competitors; Musician's and Embouchure dystonia; Mogigraphia or "Writer's Cramp"; Computer mouse-related dystonia; and the various shotgun sports "flinches" (including lunging at the trap house in response to the "trigger freeze") are all variants of Task-Specific Focal Dystonia or "a psycho-neuromuscular impediment affecting the execution of fine motor skills during sporting performance."
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2015/11/1...tand-surprisingly-little-about-the-yips/
I would add "visual" to the definition as some flinches are clearly precipitated by some visual error ie. losing sight/focus of the target.

"Tics", de la Tourette syndrome, and Meige's syndrome are related dystonias
https://www.webmd.com/brain/tic-disorders-and_twitches#1

Excellent review of "The Yips"
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/05/26/the-yips

Sports psychologists think "yips" is all psychologic.
Neurologists think it's a neurologic/physiologic disorder.
Likely a bit of both.
Certainly, after the first flinch, there is apprehension/anxiety about having another, which leads to loss of focus, which leads to more flinches. Telling oneself "don't flinch" before calling for a target is a good way to flinch.

Stanley Fahn M.D., professor of neurology at Columbia University, and the scientific director of the Parkinson's Disease Foundation
"It's beyond their control. It's not psychogenic; it's an organic disease of the brain. But we still don't understand why? It's some kind of a physiological-biochemical problem that we don't understand."

"What are the yips? Experts say it's not just in your head" in Golf Digest
Debbie Crews PhD, a sports-psychology consultant for the women's golf team at Arizona State, and Aynsley M. Smith PhD, a sports psychologist at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota studied "yips" in golfers and found it to be "characterized by the co-contraction of groups of arm muscles that don't ordinarily operate at the same time: one group that extends the wrist and one that flexes it."

The Task-specific Focal Dystonia that shooters call a "flinch" is a 2 part event (though occurring almost instantaneously):
1st is the "trigger freeze" (which may not be perceived by the flincher) from involuntary and dysfunctional contraction of opposing small muscles in the hand and forearm, followed by
2nd an entertaining variety of bodily reactions; lunging, jerking, stumbling toward the trap house, etc. involving large muscles.

The reason we can't pull a pull trigger is because the extensor muscles (Extensor indicis and Extensor pollicis longus) are contracting rather than relaxing, and the flexor muscle (Flexor digitorum profundus) will not contract (that's the short version and ignores the contribution of the Lumbricals and Interossei).

Recoil clearly contributes to flinching, but there is no recoil in putting or throwing a dart, and people still "yip" or have "dartitis"

Almost all of us push our bodies forward with recoil (obvious when we have a dud), but that is recoil compensation, not a flinch.

Recoil/noise avoidance flinching before the shot (ducking the head, closing the eyes, being unable to pull the trigger without jerking) is a physiologic conditioned response to an unpleasant stimulus, is not a task-specific focal dystonia, and one can become accustom to the stimulus, and the response thereto attenuated.

BTW: I've come to understand that my trigger freeze and flinch trying to click my mouse (which BTW doesn't bite) is a visual flinch; if I'm not precise in placing the cursor arrow exactly where it needs to be, I flinch.

The dystonia in throwing a baseball is failure to relax the muscles ie. inability to "let go"; the opposite of a shooter's "trigger freeze".
https://d1softball.com/throwing-ope...cher-sydney-collazos-destigmatizes-yips/

Releasing a release trigger is not a passive action; the extensor muscle must contract. Releasing an arrow from a long bow requires contraction of that same extensor muscle. Archers still have "target panic"; and some release trigger users still flinch.

Moving the gun before the target appears has been called "forecasting the target" and is purposeful, rather than an involuntary dystonia.

What a flinch most certainly is not is ALL anything; recoil fear, focus, vision, grip, slapping vs. pulling, trigger pull, gun fit, performance stress, hold point or anything else, for everybody. And claiming "it's 95%" anything is simply wrong, and not helpful. LOTS of things contribute to the dystonia, and many of us have found effective ways to suppress our flinching without a release (for me dealing with my cross-firing, firmly gripping the gun, intense focus, and low recoil loads) but as said over and over, usually a release will work (but often requiring dealing with vision issues also), and we don't know why.

Anyone claiming to understand focal dystonia, and who demonstrates a cure thereof will very quickly be a gazillionaire. The big money is in professional golfers with "the yips", but maybe the secret will trickle down to us flinchers.

Fortunately, a release trigger CAN be a cure, but may not be for everyone. And adjustments in ribs, hold points, target focus points, and vision training may indeed help visual flinches.

There are 34 muscles in the hand, wrist, and forearm that work together to MAKE AND RELAX A GRIP
https://www.innerbody.com/image_skel13/ligm27.html
One must grip the gun in order to either pull a trigger or relax a release trigger, or we drop the gun. All those muscles are not involved in contracting the trigger finger - 3 do that. And 2 extend the trigger finger.

The amazing thing is that we can volitionally, but with time subconsciously, command our hand to firmly grip (contraction) our gun while, at just the right moment, command our pointer finger to extend. It is my only slightly learned opinion that the contraction then extension has something to do with blocking the dystonia.

The yips, the strange condition affecting sportsmen
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...denly-develop-yips-choke-under-pressure/
"something as simple as clenching your left fist before putting or bowling (throwing the ball toward the wicket defended by a batsman in cricket can make a significant difference"
Clenching would be setting the release trigger!

It has long been suggested that not firmly gripping the gun can contribute to flinching.

Guns, Ammunition, and Tackle, 1904
http://books.google.com/books?id=G5ECAAAAYAAJ
Capt. A.W. Money "The Shot-gun And Its Handling"
The grasp of the stock with the right hand should be very firm, the thumb well over the grip. The right hand guides the gun more than most shooters are aware of, and if not firmly grasping the grip, is not able to do so properly. A loose grip also is the common cause of flinching, that most uncomfortable but prolific cause of misses.

My swing is much smoother and I am much less likely to flinch if I purposefully tell myself squeeze the gun before calling for the target.

Interestingly, Col. Courtney cured his flinch after smashing his fingers, requiring changing his grip
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/42734

Charles Barkley's flinch. Telling him to "get over it and toughen up" would likely not be well received.



Something must have helped
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/11/charles-barkley-improved-golf-swing-video



https://clubhouse.swingu.com/lifest...-charles-barkleys-golf-swing-stan-utley/

Or these extremely well paid professional athletes with the "yips"
https://www.maxim.com/entertainment/6-great-athletes-who-got-yips

https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/another-case-of-yips.830933/

There Is Yips Hope! Tiger Woods and 2019 Masters
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/there-is-yips-hope.837165/

It is interesting, but not yet understood, why golfers with hopeless "yips" do not flinch when there is no ball in place; the stroke is smooth. And the flinch of putting, dart throwing or releasing a bow string occurs from a dead stop ie. no movement.

MLB hall-of-flinching-fame

Lost Move Syndrome (LMS) is even less well understood, and different from "yips"; it is "I no longer knew how to pull the trigger", and not "I couldn't pull the trigger".
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/yips-flinches-and-trigger-control.851611/

It has been described as a psychological condition in which athletes find themselves unable to perform a skill that was previously automatic. Lost Movement Syndrome affected athletes remain in possession of the motor program for the skill, and are still physically capable of performing it, but are temporarily prevented from accessing it.
Some parallels can be drawn between the yips and LMS, specifically related to cognitive anxiety, ineffective focus, and a switch to conscious processing.

Kate Hays, English Institute of Sport, "Yips and Lost Move Syndrome: Exploring Psychological Symptoms, Similarities, and Implications for Treatment", 2015
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ilarities_and_implications_for_treatment

Jennifer Bennett, "The Psychology of the Yips and Lost Movement Syndrome in Sport", 2015
http://shura.shu.ac.uk/20626/1/10701273.pdf

Simon Biles' "Twisties" at the 2021 Olympic Games were a variant of LMS
https://www.snexplores.org/article/simone-biles-twisties-gymnastics-olympics-explainer

LMS describes my former (almost) source of angst. I've never triggered the gun when "it" happens, until it passes and I can trigger the gun a split second later.

I never heard the formal name for it. Thanks. I've a shooting buddy who flinches a time or two per 100. He always pulls the trigger, but with other accompanying muscle jerks, causing a miss, usually. He can't understand my never shooting when mine occurs.

Now I can tell him why. We have two different ailments!

SRH

I have suffered of & on from a bad flinching problem for the past 35 years on clay targets but I have never (that I know of) flinched on any game targets. I've had long periods where it is not present but it always returns.

The only temporary cure I've found is to lay off the shooting for a month or so & sometimes I can go for a year or more before it returns. I shoot 1200 fps 7/8 oz loads in guns of around 8 lbs almost exclusively for clay targets so I don't think the flinch is recoil induced.

I once flinched in a game of horseshoes (a game I seldom play) & was unable to release the shoe when I intended & I came close to braining a bystander. Since that flinch was on muscle relaxation rather than contraction I never tried a release trigger.

Being from Canada we are not allowed to have suppressors of any kind. Owning but not using is still against the law. This past winter while at the Shot Show I had the opportunity to shoot a few high power rifles with suppressors. A 300 Win Mag, 7.60NATO and 30.06. It was quite unbelievable. My fear of the rifle report and subsequent recoil vanished in about 5 shots. I could settle down and very clearly and precisely control the trigger squeeze, focus on good bench rest technique and call the shots. My shooting, i expect, would improve dramatically if I could use suppressors constantly. And I expect my trap and skeet scores would put me into the AA league.

My suggestion to anyone starting out shooting is to get a suppressor and learn from there on.

Drew,
I noticed your reference to your flinch, I don�t presume to know that much on the subject but would like to share my flinch experience as I had a fairly terrible time of it!

After Kathleen and I bought the Double Adobe Campground in 1990 we immediately started adding the trap fields as this was the clientele we were attracting. I built a 25� flag pole with a draw rope in pulleys. The rope got fouled in the top pulley so I stood on the bottom pulley to try and shift the rope, it rolled and I fell only far enough to be impaled on the tie off cleat. I was hung through my right bicep about a foot off of the ground. Dr Susini told me the 3� tear was very close to the brachial artery and between muscles. The accident messed up the nerves in my right arm pretty bad, when shooting I would have a strange delay and stutter on trigger pull. I best described it as a small electric shock. This created my first FLINCH. I was shooting an old straight stocked Model 32TC but flinching badly.

As the owner/operator of a fledgling shooting facility I felt that I better figure out how to keep shooting�in comes the release triggers first a single Perazzi then my doubles Beretta EELL and so on. I did fine, made the 27 yard line and a number of 100 straights. We sold the operation after 17 years. My interest in competitive shooting waned as I revisited my collecting of vintage Remington�s especially clay target/bird guns.
I love my �oldies� but had an awful time trying to shoot them, I have actually stepped off of the shooting post while flinching! Very funny for my buds watching�not too fun looking from my view point! Pulling the triggers was tough and double triggers were nearly impossible.Too long shooting release triggers although my bird guns are all pull.
After so many years of talking and reading about nerve damage I felt that some degree of restoration had occurred to my right arm. I decided to remove all my release hooks, sell off the triggers and guns (buy more Remingtons) and do my best to learn to shoot double triggers.

I decided that if I wanted to continue shooting shotguns I needed to take an aggressive adjustment to the way I shot. I figured I would try to re-wire my brain and years of muscle memory. The first thing was to not shoot the guns that I had been shooting with release triggers even though they were converted to pull. It seemed like the feel of the fit prepared me to the �old ways�. I pasted a mock doubles trap house and set of 4 targets on the front of my gun safe, I make my gun mount then move to shoot the first target while pulling the front trigger�then make a good move to the second target as I pull the back trigger. All this is done as I shift my weight and execute the two shots just as if I am shooting the pair. I don�t cock the gun just pull/move/pull dead triggers. I mount and shoot 50 targets (25 pair) twice each AM, this plus my stretching and light dumb bells for shoulder mobility. Over the last few months I have been doing this with my 32TC as it feels good, I�ll change to the FE when the stock is finished.
I think the exercise has helped me a lot. I have been shooting 25 straights often and shot a 94 in a registered competition a couple of months ago. I know that I can and will flinch once in a while if I am not focused on the shot. When I do I ignore the result as if I got a broken target or no bird. I avoid shooting any of my guns that have hard triggers, the 32TC and FE have very smooth ones. I hope to stick with my rehab program until I feel totally comfortable and automatic with the double trigger guns.
Mike

Thanks for sharing Mike.
The story of Markelle Fultz illustrates the multi-factorial aspect of "yips", which can be precipitated by an injury
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/another-yips-victim.818779/

He was finally diagnosed with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome
https://www.sbnation.com/2018/12/13...jury-tos-thoratic-outlet-syndrome-doctor
but despite all the therapy (physical and mental) he is nothing like the player he once was; now with Orlando.

From 6-2020
"He simply didn't know how to shoot the ball anymore."
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/t...ing-like-that-before-the-kid-cant-shoot/

re: pull triggers. I had Dan Lammers tune the locks of the Smith I was primarily using for recreational skeet and sporting. A crisp let-off is a thing of awe and wonder, and did help my flinch, but totally ruined any chance of my using a heavy mushy trigger.

Brittany guy's example "I was unable to let go" is the dystonic reaction with throwing; a baseball, cricket ball or dart, and also archer's "target panic".

Tamid: A recoil/noise/sonic concussion anticipation "flinch" is a "duck & cover" avoidance response, and very likely has a survival advantage. Videos from the Boston Marathon bombings show everyone, to some degree, "flinching" ie. closing their eyes, turning away and ducking.

This "flinch" is not a dystonic reaction however

sigmund freud believed that we are born with two fears/phobias; falling and loud noises....he thought all other such behaviors were "learned". mountain climbers and iron workers would offer proof that fear of falling can be controlled...but each individual has varying levels of susceptibility to any such tendency.

I don't understand your post, or Freud.
Explaining flinching as a fear reaction is unhelpful, and wrong.

Peter Harris in 2018 was still repeating what is clearly incorrect
"I believe it is caused by a fear of noise, recoil, and failure to hit the target."
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/shooting-answers/trigger-freeze-or-the-flinch-effect-1845

There is no noise or recoil in throwing a dart, but some still get "dartitis".
I flinch trying to click on my mouse if the cursor is not exactly where it needs to be (an example of a "visual flinch")...no fear, noise or pain is involved.

Emotions play a role in flinching, but shooters do not flinch because of "fear", some mental deficiency, or emotional weakness. I know plenty of very tough guys who would be unable to shoot trap without a release trigger. How does the release cure "fear"? Or simply changing one's grip (frequently tried with golfers) which has helped me enormously (purposefully squeezing the grip before calling for the target)?

Anxiety/embarrassment about flinching/the "yips" certainly can worsen the problem however. "Sports Anxiety" or "match stress" is a valid term, but "yips" are much more than an emotional reaction to performance stress and "choking"
https://drstankovich.com/conquering-sports-anxiety-beat-the-yips-for-sport-success/
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-athletes-get-the-yips#3

Sports Psychologists think "yips" is all psychologic. This guy calls it "misplaced focus"
https://www.mlb.com/news/the-yips-difficult-to-understand-difficult-to-cure/c-47124896

Golf coach John Redman thinks it's caused by "doubt and confusion"
http://theaposition.com/davidgouldg...-when-youre-stroking-your-practice-putts
Yipping, according to Redman and others, is a glitch in the neuro-muscular works caused by doubt and confusion. (The psycho-cybernetics pioneer Maxwell Maltz coined the apt phrase "purpose tremor" to describe physical phenomena like the yips.)
In today's golf coaching environment, it's natural to go after the yips with sports psychology techniques, i.e., to create an internal emotional stimulus of calm and confidence to override the anxiety that is jamming the signals we have to send in order to make a smooth stroke. The other, probably superior, tack is to change the visual stimuli that are causing doubt and confusion.

So what do you call it when you dock the boat and get one leg over the gunnel and your foot on the dock, but can't for the life of yourself lift the other leg to complete disembarking? A handhold takes care of the problem, but there usually isn't one...Geo

I like that new word "yip", so that's what I'm going to call it.

That would be called ARD, Age Related Disorder ........

SRH

Weak quads George. Do some squats and stair climbing.
Or work on getting up off the floor without using your hands - the ability to do so is highly correlated with longevity
https://www.prevention.com/fitness/fitne...icts-longevity/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzKx-pmues

Yaay! I can do it at 68, Drew.

Will I make my goal of shooting a limit of doves on my 100th birthday?

SRH

We all sure hope so, Stan...Geo

If I practice getting up and down, cross legged and without my hands, everyday from now until then .......... maybe so. Thanks, Geo.

SRH

[quote=Geo. Newbern]So what do you call it when you dock the boat and get one leg over the gunnel and your foot on the dock, but can't for the life of yourself lift the other leg to complete disembarking? A handhold takes care of the problem, but there usually isn't one...Geo

Dock side at the Kodiak Island Harbor nobody has a disembarking problem as there are monstrous sea lions swimming about, important to NOT go in the water--it's all about Motivation!

Alligators should serve the same purpose down here...Geo

I fixed the formatting and added to some of the posts

It is repeated over and over in Forum discussions that "Most flinches are visual" ie. “Most people who flinch are covering the target with the barrel and while searching they panic and pull the trigger.”

https://www.trapshooters.com/thread...-flinch-when-trap-shooting.876235/page-3

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/flinching-and-recoil-reduction.549686/

These polls would refute that claim, although clearly some flinches are visual

https://www.trapshooters.com/thread...-primary-discipline.936142/#post-9140491

https://www.trapshooters.com/thread...-primary-discipline.936141/#post-9140435

You got some typical & expected grumpy "Trapshooter" responses. Haha!


I believe my flinches are eye/brain disconnects. Eyes say "good"...brain says "nope!"

If it's a fast target no issues. Slow target with lots of time to see with mounted gun, happens sometimes.

I don't ever remember a flinch when shooting game.

Not a result of recoil. I shoot large bore rifles without any yip. Most of my 12ga target loads are 7/8oz @ 1225fps. I sometimes shoot 1oz @ 1200fps


I was surprised to see Barkley continue his swing after the glitches. Would thing he'd start over with such a delay.

Agreed. Me, too. The biggest thing I did to help myself is to make myself "slap the trigger". As a competition target shooter for much of my life, pistol and rifle, I had pretty much perfected the type trigger pull necessary to be competitive at it. It is exactly what you should NOT do with a shotgun. Every time I told myself to slap the trigger there was never a flinch. I believe the difference in telling myself "don't flinch" and telling myself "slap the trigger" is the difference between a negative thought and a positive one. My LMS flinch on clay birds is 99+% gone since I began this. And if I remembered to tell myself that more often, until it became ingrained, I believe it would be 100%.

Interesting. In these non-statistically significant polls, compared to trapshooters, skeet and sporting clays shooters do appear to be more likely to have a visual flinch; 55% vs. 43% as their primary flinch.
Not sure how release triggers "cure" visual flinches.

I shoot release triggers because I find them easier than a pull trigger, although I can shoot pull triggers with little problem. I shoot competition skeet, trap and sporting. I flinch at times with both a release and a pull, usually due to a visual disconnect with the target; it seems that most often it happens when my hold point is too high and the shotgun barrel is obscuring the target. It seems I flinch less with a release than I do a pull trigger. I have a bad right shoulder that causes me pain when shooting and I think knowing what’s coming causes me to cringe, if not flinch, sometimes. I’m having rotator cuff surgery in 2 weeks so no shooting x 4-5 months. Fingers crossed it helps.

Good luck with the surgery. I had the same back in late November. It is a long, slow, and somewhat painful recovery.

I'm a helice shooter fighting a flinch, currently trying double release triggers, the first trigger is coming around ok, second trigger not so much.
I have now shot 8 thirty bird rounds of helice and have only had 2 second barrel kills.
Wish I had tried release/pull first.
Having my stock fitted made my flinching worse and I always float the bird, so I never lose sight of the bird.

Flinching is awful and makes shooting not as enjoyable, I haven't flinched a single time with release triggers, but my scores are worse because I can't seem to master that second shot.

I had my right shoulder rebuilt over ten years ago. It was so bad I could not throw a ball 15 feet. Within a year I was back to throwing a ball in the low 80's. Played in an old mans baseball league the second year. Wish I had done it ten years sooner. The PT was not fun and follow the PT closely. Doing 100 instead of 30 is not smart. You are building strength and range of motion, not things which can be rushed by doubling up PT. My other shoulder now needs a little work, but that is just bone spurs needing trimmed and should be easier. In and out in a few hours and a few weeks PT for full recovery.

My flinches started out from recoil. Thinking I was going to Africa, I shot a few thousand .375 and .458 rounds, mostly .458. I cringe just thinking about them now. But I did it and ended up with a great flinch which transferred over to my shotgun shooting. It took years to get rid of it. Went to shooting left handed, using my middle finger for my trigger finger and went to shooting only .410. Tens of thousands of .410 later I switched back to right handed and using my normal trigger finger. I would have a rare flinch even then, but they were always a visual, sight picture issue. It did not look right and I flinched trying to get the right sight picture. Today I doubt I have more than a finch or two a year and am very happy to be past them.

You may not have time to set the second trigger for Helice. I shot flyers a few months ago trying a double release and I found just that, not enough time to set the trigger for the 2nd shot, so I put a pull/pull trigger back in my P-gun. However, next time I go to a flyer shoot I’m going to try release/pull which is clearly the fastest of all the triggers. Back in the old days I shot R/P. I’ve never shot helice but I’d like to try it (after rotator cuff recuperation). Good luck.

Jon Kruger shoots a release trigger now, as I think you know, Buzz. But, he does it in a totally different way than most. Most people pull the trigger to set it, then call "Pull", then release it. He does nothing with it until he's ready to shoot, then pulls it and releases it, quickly. Whatever works, eh?

I have time, but I'm snatching the trigger when setting the second shot and pulling off the target, if I try to be easier when setting, I trap the trigger on a few.
I sent my other gun off to install release pull, will try it and see. I have a flyer shoot June 1st and need to get something straightened out.

I tried a release trigger. Or a release, release and then a release pull version. On singles release worked well for me but when I went to shooting doubles at trap or skeet it was not very good. Release, release forces me to shoot the first bird very quickly which I already did but I still ran late on the second bird with the pull, release, pull release again. Too many steps for me but it works well for several people I know. One who goes back and forth to regular trigger and then release with little problems. He says it’s like driving a stick then automatic and back again.

Being a two eye shooter if I let the bird get under the barrel I will try to shift to my left eye. That’s a flinch for me every time but I’ve done it so often I usually withhold fire and can ride the bird out and recover. Never had a problem shooting left handed with both eyes open. Flinch went away but my average was almost two birds less per hundred in Skeet. Trap was about the same. Good luck working through things until you find what works for you.

Preacher, did you seriously say that???

I never understood your apparent obsession with flinching and the yips. But now I do.

This explains a lot of things I suspected. I'll try to be precise with my words here...Good thing you aren't a surgeon!

I wouldn't expect you to understand flinching if you have never experienced the frustration of inexplicable trigger freeze and lunging at the trap house.
Computer mouse dystonia is very common today, and the "yips" have destroyed the careers of lots of professional athletes and musicians.

Rather than your toxic trolling, possibly you could be helpful William. Do you have a flinch? Visual or out-ot-the-blue? What have you tried to mitigate your flinch? What worked for you?

BTW: Thank you for your concern, but I'm happy to say that sewing up Boy Scouts when volunteering in the Health Lodges at Bartle Scout Reservation in MO & Camp Geronimo here in AZ was never a problem. The woke activists successfully destroyed Scouting from within and I left.

No Preacher, I have never experienced any flinch or "yips" problems, as you have. My Dad taught me the importance of self-control and control of psychological and physiological responses pertaining to accurate shooting beginning before I ever first pulled a trigger on a .22 rifle. He was into shooting accurately, and knew all about the importance of controlling breathing, managing heart or pulse rate, and staving off things like 'Buck Fever'' that cause inaccuracy. I think he would have made a great sniper.

He was also an excellent shot with a shotgun, and there he emphasized the different shooting style versus a rifle. With the shotgun, it was more about quick reaction times in response to flushing game, or different presentations while skeet shooting. When I was about 13 years old, we stepped to the edge of a large rock overlooking a hollow and a grouse flushed loudly, only a couple yards below us. I hesitated, and it quickly got out of range. He calmly told me, "We're not bird-watching today. You gotta shoot quick if you want to eat grouse." One only has a fraction of a second or so to identify the target, ascertain that it is safe to shoot, mount the gun, establish lead as required, and fire before the target is obscured by brush, leaves, or is simply out of range. The controlled trigger squeeze of rifle or handgun was replaced by the quick slap that Stan spoke of here a couple days ago. Unfortunately, I have to say from personal experience that shooting fast and shooting well can create the negative effect of having your hunting buddies call you nasty names like "Game Hog". I can deal with that.

I've always told myself that a hard kicking gun isn't going to recoil any less if I allow that to make me miss. That seems to work OK for me. I could equal my Dad with a rifle, and do better with a handgun, especially at rapid fire combat shooting. But I have to admit he was better than me with a shotgun. He was a natural who could run a straight after months with no practice. I usually need a little tune-up to get back in form, and still miss a few that he would turn to dust with his Polychoked 870 pump.

Your admission of flinching while using a computer mouse had me laughing hysterically. I mean, my gosh... we aren't talking about a soldier with PTSD who flinches because his next step might detonate an I.E.D. or land mine, or he saw a buddy wounded or killed. I don't think my comment was toxic trolling at all.

I work with computers constantly as part of my job, and cannot say either I or any of my co-workers ever had the "Yips" or a flinch while clicking a mouse. I'm laughing again just thinking about it! That could even be dangerous or catastrophic if I toggled a bit or forced something in PLC Logic at the wrong moment due to an errant mouse click. I could cause unexpected machine movement that could injure or kill someone or cause millions in damage. At the other extreme, I also work with sensitive electronics that could be destroyed if my hand isn't steady, and a shaky hand or flinch could cause me to put a tool in a place where very high voltages could literally vaporize a screwdriver causing severe burns, or electrocute me. It's a bit different than putting a couple stitches in a Boy Scout who cut himself with his Scout knife.

True story though... several weeks ago, I was doing my end of shift reports, Emails, etc. and the cursor on the screen inexplicably kept jumping just as I would click my mouse. For a moment, I blamed it on the new PC's that the IT Dept. provided a short time ago. They had given us a lot of problems and we all lost important files and documents we had saved. Then I noticed a small black object in the USB port. It stuck out perhaps 4 m/m and was as wide as the USB slot. I removed it and turned to the young guy sitting behind me and asked him if he thought I should smash it with a hammer? He said, "I wish you wouldn't.", and then produced the wireless mouse that he was using to prank me. He admitted that he had colored the tiny USB stick with a black Sharpie marker so I wouldn't notice it, and was surprised I caught on so quickly. It was all in good fun, and it didn't leave me with a scary Mouse Flinch, "Yips", or night sweats.

Next time you use a mouse Preacher, relax, take some deep breaths, and maybe try some Yoga beforehand. Slowly repeat the mantra, "Get a grip... get a grip... get a grip...

I experienced more borderline flinching with 338 and 375 H&H, 416 R rifles.
In New Mexico, I obtained a rifle that I thought would cure everything, including
a slight anticipation of recoil: An 1874 Sharps chambered in .50 cal (50 3 1/4).
A 725 gr cast bullet.
Went back to 45-70 Sharps and 3 in shotguns for shoulder relief. (No flinching with shotguns.)

Thank you for explaining that you know nothing about the dystonic reaction we call a "flinch" William.
Enjoying another forum member's shooting disability reflects very poorly on your character...but we already know that.

The next time you are tempted to troll, about something of which you have no knowledge, take a deep breath...and don't.

I did not say that I enjoyed another members shooting disability, and I did not explain that I know nothing about "flinch". Why are you bearing false witness against thy neighbor Preacher? Isn't that one of the Ten Commandments? I think posting falsehoods reflects on your character, but it is nothing new to me. I specifically said that I got great laughs at the thought of your Computer Mouse flinch. Typing that just made me laugh again!

I know a great deal about flinch, the "yips", and even PTSD Preacher. I even took the time to explain how I was taught to avoid tigger flinch, and it works for me. It involves some discipline and self-control, instead of reacting to Bogeymen that aren't really there. Instead of learning from my experience, you chose to once again denigrate and insult me, and lied in the process. This is another example of why I facetiously refer to you as "Preacher".

Being schooled and intensely interested in accurate shooting, I have studied the causes of noise and recoil induced trigger flinch, and how to prevent them. I've known since high school days that the top Benchrest shooters often use a "sissy-bag" between their shoulder and buttplate to mitigate the mild recoil of small caliber heavy Bench Rest class guns, because of the cumulative effect of even mild recoil on the nervous system. We had NRA Certified Instructors in my High School Indoor Rifle Range coaching and teaching us how to shoot accurately, even in the more difficult kneeling and offhand positions. I recently related the story of how I won a bet with a friend who made the silly claim that a .22 rimfire has no recoil. I challenged him to shoot a very light Stevens Little Scout boys rifle by placing the thin steel buttplate about 1/8" from his chin, assuring him he would indeed feel the recoil. It more than got his attention, and I won the bet. I understand how induced flinch may happen with repetitive shotgun shooting, such as high volume dove shooting. I've been fortunate in that I have fired some powerful guns that beat me up and bruised my shoulder, either by sheer foot pounds of recoil energy or poor stock design, yet never developed a flinch. I have fired magnum handguns that recoiled so hard that I was left with a bruised hand and was bleeding from under my fingernails. Shooting two-handed would have made it more manageable, but I did it one-handed for fun. It was painful at the time, but did no permanent damage to me physically and did not induce subsequent flinch. That's because the root cause is more mental than physical, barring any serious underlying problems like severe shoulder injury. But my knowledge of the subject of flinch is never going to help someone like you. I also will not try to impress anyone here by using the same medical or scientific terms you use, even though I know and understand them. And even if I could help you, why would I, when you have personally and dishonestly attacked me for years (as you did here), and then hypocritically pretend that you are above the fray?


Computer Mouse flinch is a whole 'nother matter, and I have never even seen a man (or a woman) who suffers from that. OK, what the hell... here's a scientific term for you...Lepidopterophobia is the fear of butterflies. Do butterflies make you flinch too???.... ROTFLMAO