Let's assume we have a game gun type shotgun, maybe a 6 1/2 pound 12 gauge SxS with good steel and well-fitted parts. You're shooting mild 7/8 oz. loads at clay targets along with reasonable hunting loads while hunting.

How much shooting can it take? Can you get 2,000 off-season rounds without feeling like you're going to shoot it to pieces?

Given that the gun is well built and in like new condition when the 2,000 rounds per season begins, yes, IMO. The big question is, how much stress has a particular gun undergone before it came into your hands? Hard to know. My BSS would not be considered a "game gun", I don't think, because it is thought to be built stronger than an average game gun, and heavier. However, I have shot one off face shooting clays and ducks. Granted, most of those duck loads were 1 1/4 oz. medium velocity loads. And, I don't know how many rounds had been put through it before it came to me but, the lever was right of center when I got it. I shimmed it .003" a few years ago and it shoots on without any problem. Comparatively, seven-eighths ounce loads, of moderate velocity, should run a long, long time in most any good 12 ga. gun.

SRH

You mean, wearing it out?

I’m thinking guys that are our age, using the parameters you laid out, would have a hard time pulling that off, Dave.

God bless you for trying.

Best,
Ted

Ted, I guess I'm cowering a little after a Beretta 409 just about bankrupted me with repairs including a lifted lower rib. I suspect the guy before me shot the hell out of it with factory loads.

You won't shoot it to pieces, Dave.

These things grind themselves loose rather than shooting loose.

Best thing you can do is keep the lugs and bolts and hinge pin free of abrasive grit and use fresh grease for each outing.

Needless to say, a snap action gun should be closed with just enough force to fully engage the locking mechanism.

I acquired a 1901 made Parker 1 1/2 frame about 7 years ago that has seen perhaps 5,000 7/8 oz. loads since I've owned it with no change in condition whatever and I expect it to stay serviceable for the rest of my life. I do keep it clean and treat it with the respect it deserves.

Not to worry. They are made to shoot.

I'd opine that rib problems are usually the result of corrosion.

I have been giving this question a lot of thought. I have been shooting 4 to 8 rounds of skeet a week between hunting season. My guns are basically game guns: 5-14 CSMC 20 gauge fox, 6-4 BSS sidelock 20, 6-10 Webley & Scott 12, and a 7-3 Parker Repro Steel Shot special. I do almost exclusively use 3/4 ounce loads of less than 1200 fps. I also use the Repro and Browning the most since they are a little heavier. Actually the Repro is fairly well suited for skeet shooting I think.
I like my bird guns and hate to think I am using them up on recreational clays. But part of my logic of clay shooting is to become a better wing shot, so I like using my hunting guns.
I have formed friendships at the gun range so I want to keep going. I have thought about getting some heavier guns such as a Parker on a 2 frame or maybe Winchester 21 (hard to find with double triggers). I have even considered looking at OU such as Merkels or older Berettas with double triggers.
I would like to stay with side by sides, but the big question in my mind is will they hold up. May be buy more guns to put in the rotation, lessening the strain on each. I like that idea.

Dave,
Sorry to hear about that trouble. You hate to be the guy that gets a bad one. But, I’d bet you would have a hard time finding another Beretta that did the same thing. I know there are guys here who believe Winchester 21s are tough, or durable, or, whatever, but, I’ve seen or handled at least a dozen that had loose ribs or loops or both. I think if you want to avoid the problems that come with old guns, you might want to avoid old guns.
The Japanese Double you came into seems like a good start down that road.

Hey, best of luck.

Best,
Ted

The question is rather difficult to truly answer. I think first of all the gun has to have a head start in quality of manufacture plus be of a design that lends its self to reliability and above all regular maintenance. So that does narrow things down a lot, I will put forward two guns one that has "walked the walk and talked the talk" and another that I feel with a little luck on its side will do the same, though each of the guns are a world apart in every way.



This gun has all the right things in its favor, firstly it is a true side lock with digitally operated hammers so no complicated cocking leavers and other add on parts to cause problems. It is built from the finest materials available the 1860's could offer and built by a top maker, but above all it has been carefully looked after and serviced though there was one bad patch in its life that nearly put pay to it pertinently. The gun has been in continuous use give or take the time for a restoration, plus there is enough metal left in the bores British Proof to do at least another two life times of the lucky owners without the need for a re proof. It is hard to calculate the number of cartridges it has been fed over its lifetime but I think that it must be pushing close to the million.



The other is a 1050's Baikal, The build quality is far from the best though the material quality especially the barrel steel is of the highest quality. It is a Box Lock with twin trigger so no complications there in fact very simple design altogether, one small down side coil main springs though showing no signs of weakening so far. If this gun is given the same attention of care as the first gun there is no good reason why it should not live and work and have the same cartridge count as the first, well it has done the first fifty years with no problems so far.

It's barely after 5 a.m., coffee is still not ready but I immediately went to this post with a foggier than usual set of eyes and brain. When I saw the word "digitally" I first wondered "why?", "what for?" and "how?" he put a chip inside that old beauty? Wonderful looking gun and excellent stewardship of a true analog of a shotgun. Gil

Why miss-spell levers as "leavers". Aren't "leavers" folks who were raised to believe that it is proper form to always leave some food remaining on your plate after the meal is finished?? RWTF

Well fox with the runs you are right and I will have strong words with my word processor. But in the way of things do I really care, and maybe you should grow up and look past such childish things to occupy your mind. So I will leave it to the Archer from the British hundred years war to demonstrate what I think of you and your petty observations of course I will look forward to looking at your corrections of American citizens mistakes that are made here rather than just my good self.

IMO, let's say you are starting with a game gun in good condition, locks up tight and no loose ribs etc. If you shoot 7/8's loads and as someone mentioned clean the action especially behind the ejectors or extractors and the hook there is no reason to think the gun won't outlast you. I have had a Dickson boxlock and WJ Jeffery sidelock that I put 5-7000 light rounds through every year I owned them and they showed no sign of wear. The Jeffery was made 1906.

With the light loads you are using most wear will be from opening and closing. Keeping all grit out of the wear points and keeping them properly lubed will slow even that down to a very slow craw. As others have sad the gun should outlast you and even the next owner if well cared for.

Nice topic here.

I would not hesitate to put 2000/year through a gun in reasonable condition. Two thousand is a ton of hunting, but not much at all at the traps, and I would expect that most of our guns will have to survive some time at the traps in order to get to the field.

There are a lot of variables. I think it was in an article about Fabbri where it was stated that the two most important aspects of a good shotgun are metallurgy and fit; design was in there, but down the list. As mentioned before, cleanliness and lubrication are biggies (I am trying to recall encountering a worn out gun that had visible lube). Then there's the outlier, like my early-manufacture Ruger Red Label with about 75K through it, no repairs and no malfunctions, though I did have it rebolted recently.

Much of the comments are concerning the mechanisms of the guns.

I worry as much or more about the wood, many upland guns have smaller frames and are stocked thinly through the wrist. My CSMC fox has developed a small crack near upper left rear of the upper tang. It is now at CSMC being checked out.

Dr Hinkins' Smith was good for > 75,000
Sporting Life, Feb. 20, 1897
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/47049
Dr. Hinkins of Chicago, has an L. C. Smith gun that was formerly used by Rolla Heikes. This gun was fired 60,000 times while in the possession of Mr. Heikes and has had over 15,000 shots fired from it since that time by Dr. Hinkins. This goes to show what the L. C. Smith gun will stand, as it is still tight and strong us a new gun.

It was probably a heavier Pigeon gun, but the usual loads then were 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr.Eq. boomers

One of W.W. Greener's > 80,000
https://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA353

Say it with me, "Lifetime guarantee".

Damascus, my favorites-hammer guns and that one is truly a beauty.

Also, sometimes Runs has nothing better to do than correct our mistakes in grammar.

A Model 21 with a loose rib or a CSMC Fox with a crack in the stock is not worn out from number of rounds fired or from any other reason. Any of the guns mentioned will last for tens of thousands of rounds unless abused. Remember that Parker and other brands of single and double trap guns were fired tens of thousands of times with heavy 1 1/4 ounce loads before they ever got to gunsinternational.com and generally are in fine shape to shoot another century.

[quote=eightbore]A CSMC Fox with a crack in the stock is not worn out from number of rounds fired or from any other reason. Any of the guns mentioned will last for tens of thousands of rounds unless abused.

Well my fox has never been "abused". I am not wealthy enough not to be careful with a gun I could barely afford to order.

I did shoot possibly 100 rounds or so of 1 ounce loads per season(velocity below 1200) over the last 25 years. I ask Tony when I ordered the gun if that was permissible. Other than those loads it has been pretty much 3/4 ounce on the skeet field and just a few sporting clay rounds using 7/8 ounce STS Premiere loads.

I apologize for my wording. However, I stand by my statement that your gun is not "worn out" just because the stock is cracked. It is probably good for another dozen decades or so once the stock is fixed.

I shot with a guy who shot his 1909 Purdey weekly at clays using B&P Comp 1 7/8oz loads. Would shoot minimum 100 shells weekly.
When the spring broke in one of the locks and he had to pay (to him) lots of money and wait several months he quit shooting it. He now shoots a B Rizzini 28 bore RB.
I shoot my guns several times a year at clays. Broke a cocking spring in the Atkin self opener once. Cost about $900 for that one.

Those are old guns. Old guns will suffer old gun problems. Either be prepared to correctly own, maintain and repair them, or shoot new guns.

Best,
Ted

Amen, Ted. Old sidelock mainsprings are VERY expensive to have made.

The answer, (other poster's replies and characterizations not withstanding) is not as many as you'd hope.

Target guns are built as they are for a reason.
Same with game guns.

^^
This is what I think. I try to cheat it by shooting very light loads.

I don't. I use the loads in them that they were designed to be used with. If I want to shoot 3/4 oz. loads I'll get out the 28.

If I shoot one loose, I can have it put back on face. As Ted said, be prepared to repair them. They can and will break. Each one must decide for themselves whether it is worth the cost. For me, it is.

SRH

Hey Stan,
I’m struggling a bit with a 12 I like to distraction, a sidelock with 2 3/4 factory chambers and proofed for any 2 3/4 load. It weighs under 6 1/2lbs. The problem is mine, not the gun, I am finding the recoil objectionable shooting off my right shoulder. This with 1 Oz
loads, but, I’m shooting 50 or so at a time.
I’m going to step it down to 7/8ths Oz loads for a bit. I want to be able to shoot right handed (after 50 years or so off the other shoulder) and want to be at least as good with this gun as any other.
Were I hunting, and had just a few shots a day, that would be one thing. But, practice, more than a few rounds, becomes unpleasant with heavier loads. I did try an A5 for a round, and did enjoy it, without regard to ammunition. Food for thought, should I ever have to put 100 rounds down a dove field, I suppose.

Just a different angle to ponder. Never had to ponder it until now.

Best,
Ted

Ted, May I offer some advice??? Get a competion gun to shoot high volume while learning to shoot right handed. Maybe take your Benelli Black Eagle that you hate and trade it for a Beretta A400?? The Beretta is a soft shooter (weighs 8 + lbs) and a trade won’t be that terribly expensive for you. I’d recommend NOT getting the kick-off gimmick on the A400. Having had one, I can tell you they are junk. These recoil redux devices don’t change the amount of energy one receives to the shoulder one iota in terms of recoil, it only changes perceived recoil (recoil change over time), if it even does that. I actually believe the kick-offs kick harder since having a bad right shoulder makes me an expert on perceived recoil. BTW, the trap A400 with parallel comb and step rib shoots a full patter high (no matter how you adjust the stock shims) , so I’d only look at the sporting models with the flat rib if I were you. Your son might like the Beretta too? Really nice guns!

Thanks, Buzz. Something to think about, for sure.

This weekend, I will be spending some time with a family friend and his wife, after his daughter and her family get into town. My friends wife is in the end stages of bone cancer, and this will likely be gut wrenching. The shooting has to wait for a bit.

But, I promise to give that some thought. Shooting the A5 was a hoot, a bit clanky, but a hoot all the same.

Best,
Ted

Ted, I've been shooting 1150ish 7/8 oz loads at clays for 20 years. They are simply ideal for light 12's and 16's. They pattern well and smash clays just fine. I couldn't do it any other way.

Ted, over 30 years ago I handloaded AA Win. 12 ga. hulls with 3/4 oz. for a 12 year-old shooting an old Beretta gas operated shotgun I had cut down to fit him. To show him he wasn't being handicapped with the puny load, I shot it out of tub o'lard Rem. 3200. I was amazed at the soft recoil and we killed plenty of dove with the same load. Gil

The 7/8 oz. loads sound like a good plan in your case, Ted. I agree with the suggestion of learning with a gas gun. They can be light years less in felt recoil than your light 12 SLE.

Heck, you could find even a 390 or 391 for little money. And, unless it was the everyday gun of a very serious clays shooter it won't be worn out, I promise.

Best to you, SRH

Shooting 7/8 ounce loads at 1150 fps in an 8 1/4 pound side by side should not be a recoil problem for anyone, adult, kid, wife, whatever. There is really no reason for any side by side shooter to go to a gas gun or to send his progeny to gas gun purgatory. Gas guns today sell for Parker prices and have absolutely no collector or resale value. And they are ugly and have no character. Why does a new gas gun sell for $2700 when my $200 1100 will do the same job?

I had no recoil issues with the A5, using a fairly standard Herter’s 1 1/8th oz target load from Cabelas. The Browning is not a gas gun, and the gun was loaded one round at a time. It has new springs, bronze ring and a Hasting’s 26” barrel with choke tubes. The stock is from an A5 Stalker. I also own a 32” Hastings barrel for this gun.

I just need lighter loads to practice with my doubles, a motley accumulation of double guns that run light in weight. I don’t actually need any more guns, but, might consider shuffling things a bit.

Best,
Ted

Good idea Ted. How many people in the upper levels of the NSCA, NSSA and ATA do you see shooting a SxS? Not many, unless in the defined SxS competitions. I think to be competitive, in this day and age, one needs a single sighting plane to reach their best. Once skilled at the various shooting disciplines, it’s easy to switch to SxS. But, not to learn and excel, like you Ted, suddenly being forced to go from left to right handed. SxS shooting is harder, no doubt there. If SxS was easier and best, all the Nat’l champs would all shoot SxS guns, which is not the case. I love SxS guns...they are the prettiest guns, but pretty is as pretty does, and they are clearly harder to shoot well. Eightbore, are you in AAA class in skeet, and/or AA and 27 yard trap, and/or Master class in Sporting clays, while shooting your SxS guns? If not, then I suggest you try to be a bit more open minded re autos and other single sighting plane guns for shooting and shooting clays.

It is a bit irrational, but, I want to use an old fashioned double, most of the time. Nothing comes easy. I have been coached to attempt to keep both eyes open, but, the vision is terribly different between both eyes. Every step is new.

As time allows, I’ll run different guns to try to discern a pattern as to which is working best. I hope to build from there, into some semblance of what was. One thing that was, is, an ugly 12 gauge pump with a painted stock was my money gun.
Might still be. Perish that thought.

Something about the A5 tickled my funny bone. A bit like getting an old model A John Deere tractor running, setting the shock absorber to light load, and the thing shuffling and clanking at the shot.

It isn’t all disappointing.

Best,
Ted

I have never been recoil sensitive, and don’t even like pads on my guns. But now I have a torn rotator cuff tendon in my right shoulder. Doc is a hunter and told me to stop shooting. Being pretty stubborn, or maybe just stupid, I started back with a .410 and worked my way back to a 12. Found that 12s and even 20s, with light loads, left me with a sore shoulder. So I bought a couple of gas guns and now I can hunt ducks and geese again with mild steel loads, and minimal pain. I still shoot some of my old doubles a bit with light loads, but the gas guns allow me to hunt seriously. I already had a couple of 1100s, but they were not configured for waterfowling and I couldn’t find a new or used 1100 configured the way I wanted, so I got plastic fantastic Win SX3s. They are just a tool, they work well, and they meet my needs. There are reasons for SxS shooters to go to gas guns.

I understand your challenge. I have had right shoulder issue for years and it continues to worsen. First I went to lighter guns, but that traded carry weight for recoil. I now try to balance 6lb gun’s with 7/8 loads moving at 1100 FPS.

Also I stay away from high volume firings save dove opening and will likely use an auto that day.

I can’t bear the thought of hunting Prairie Chicken without a SXS

Quail were the main reason for my love of doubles. I don't hunt quail anymore, but still like my heavy side by sides for waterfowl. I'll open dove season with a 20ga Beretta gas operated autoloader...Geo

OK, my constipated Limey amigo-- But Luggers are those who carry heavy burdens for their Masters, not the extractors found on break-action shotguns. And rubbers are protective footgear worn to ward off rainstorms blast, NOT erasers found on the ends of pencils. Bad form indeed to be adding superfluous vowels to words that were well spelled without same, ie; colour, honour, etc.

But I do honor (NOT honour) one of your best known Limey gun writers, the late Gough Thomas. He had high praise indeed for the Winchester Model 12 pumpgun. I'd love to shoot high pheasant (archangels?) with my 12 bore 30" Full choked solid ribbed M12- but that invite will, no doubt, be as likely as the Holy Father performing a Bar Mitzvah-- Foxy

RWTF I remember reading GTs original article in the Shooting Times referring to the model 12’s ease of use, or its eumatic quality as he termed it.
However I do not think he ever owned one, unlike the late Geoffrey Boothroyd who owned ,used and had a model 12 restocked to fit. Gough Thomas and his well known dislike of the over and under when compared to his much favoured side by sides makes him an unlikely candidate for model 12 ownership.

Damascus it looks like you have done a bit of work on your baikal . They always had the reputation for firing any cartridge that had misfired in other guns but they were a bit cosmetically challenged. It looks like you’ve transformed the look of yours and now have a great combination of dependability,affordability and style. Well done

Konor. I did a number of posts under "A heavier gun required" on how I did the the conversion of the dated sad looking Baikal to the gun you see now, with the only cost being the recoil bad and a silver coin the personal effort came free.

If we're assuming that "game gun" in its original meaning refers to a British sxs used for shooting driven game . . . they needed to stand up to a lot.

But it's also good to remember that the Brits tend to take a "preventive maintenance" approach to their guns that we Yanks are less likely to do. (We wait until something breaks.) Traditionally, they'd send them back to the maker (or perhaps to a local gunsmith) after the shooting season ended. Whatever needed attention got it. A good approach with any gun that you shoot a lot--especially if it's an older one.

Thanks damascus I’ll look the thread up. I’m attracted to guns that have had a lot of care given them especially if they are run of the mill. At first glance I thought it was an older Browning A1.
I’ve just read through the “heavier gun required” thread. Very impressed thanks for the heads up, I hope your shoulder and recoil problems have been resolved. I have just had a pacemaker fitted ,two weeks ago , due to an av2 block and resultant bradycardia so I’m wondering if I will need to rethink my choice of gun for the coming season.

He did a great job.
Discerning, skillful.

I believe he did some polishing on the inside as well.
Baikal's can take some cocking effort in the raw.

Americans over here- let's go back to the 1941-1945 era in LimeyLand, old Chap. Americans are "Over paid, Over sexed (aka- under-laid) and worse of all, Over here" Where would old fat boy Winnie with his cigars and John Bull be w/0 FDR and lend-lease? Visit the various gravesites in Europe and count, if you can, all the American names- even go back to WW1 if you wish- RWTF- Oh, and in spite of his victory over Rommel in Africa, what a monumental Fubar was Monty's ill-fated Market Garden. If Ike had only stayed with Patton's game plan- instead of jumping into a "Bridge Too Far"--

Fox, you take Non-Sequitur to new levels.

Congratulations.

General Mark Clark and his handling of the Italian campaign. He wavered at Salerno, say his detractors, sent the Texans of the US 36th Division to needless deaths across the River Rapido, and most heinous of all, disobeyed General Alexander’s orders to cut off the retreating German 10th Army at Valmontone during the DIADEM Battle for Rome, and instead turned the bulk of his forces through the Alban Hills in an effort to reach the Italian capital more quickly. This decision, it has been argued, was motivated largely by personal vanity and an unchecked arrogance that corrupted his military judgement. How many Brits Polish and other allied lives did this little escapade cost with him showboating in Rome. Fox with the runs how many times do we have to bash your head against a wall before you learn people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. You can say a lot about us brits but in the end we are gentlemen and keep our mouths shut about other countries Military disasters, but we could rake up that little falling out with rice growers that started with the French at Dien Bien Phu ending with your Military throwing helicopters of the decks of ships. Just crawl back in your dam hole and keep a civil tongue in your head.

Years ago, I decided to ONLY hunt birds with SxS's. Some of these shotguns are a century old.

So I shoot 4k to 5k rounds at Sporting Clays and Skeet with a Beretta A-400 (semi-auto) during the first 9 months of the year. October 1st the Beretta moves to the back of the gun safe, and the old SxS's go bird hunting.

I did try a new Dickinson SxS and a CZ SxS for clays, but ended up selling both.

Wow, "Degree of wear on side by sides in regular use" to "Mark Clark". I'll say one thing. Once a Brit converts his verbiage to print, I can understand almost every word.

Don’t speak unkindly of the dead. Clark, oft berated, was the man we needed in the hour we needed him:

https://www.historynet.com/mark-w-clark-a-general-reappraisal.htm

Fox is, however, very much alive. Speak candidly of him.

Best,
Ted

OK, my Limey friend. I'll agree that we (America WW-2) had some sub-standard Generals, if you compare them to Patton (which is a impossible task.) Even Patton cost the war effort when he send a unit to rescue his son-in-law from a German POW stalag-- not as big a FUBAR as Monty's "Market-Garden" Airborne/Ground Troop plan, where the British patently ignored the Dutch underground's "spot on" reports of a massive German PanzerKorp force awaiting the Allied Troops- disaster, big time. And I'll give you Clark & Ike being complacent about the Kraut last-ditch effort that lead to the Battle of the Bulge (Which Patton and Col. Koch predicted)and how that FUBAR lead to greater loss of Allied lives.

But the fact remains that W/O America's involvement in WW11- thanks mainly to the ignorance of American intelligence of the pending attack by Japan at Pearl Harbor, you wankers would be ordering (in German, Danke) sauerkraut und weinerschnitzel at the Savoy Grille, instead of steak and kidney pie.

FWIWIP- my main reason for distrust of the Brits lies in my Green Irish Catholic roots and all the shafting of the Irish by your Countrymen, going back to the Potato Famine and in infamous Lord Boycott and Lord Parnell as well.

I will agree that LBJ's "snookering" the American people into escalating the Aug 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident into a bloodbath that put over 53,000 American names on a long black wall in Washington D.C.-- He should have seen in recent history, albiet in a smaller scenario, the Bay of Pigs Fubar, and learned what JFK learned the hard way-- and you Limeys must now realize re: The IRA and Belfast- your adversary always has the home court advantage-just as we know that wars of attrition lead to a hige butcher's bill afterwards: Pickett's charge in 1963 at Gettysburg, Gen. Haig's loss of 60,000 men at the first battle of the Somme. RWTF

All this drivel should be sent by pm.

If it all.

Repeated display of pointless anglophobia is not going to encourage participation here by our valued brothers from across the pond.

Kindly knock it off Fox.

Good luck with that.

Your understanding of what might happen if there where no USA involvement is so simplistic. I don't normally do history and consequences of ww2 talks these days but in your case I will make an exception.
Firstly We Brits would not be talking German if the USA did not get involved in ww2. We have a thing called the English channel 22 miles of water It stopped Spanish Phillip, the French Corporal Bonaparte, and the other corporal Hitler. The only one who ever managed it was King William in 1066 On the subject of Hitler he new the game was up when his army failed to take the oil fields at Ploesti plus the blood bath at Kursk. From that point on no Fuel the end was in site. Well we Brits on our own won the air battle and that put pay to the German invasion by sea. So what would be the outcome, lets go to "Yalta" with Starlin, Churchill, and Roosevelt by then was a very sick man. Joe Starlin took advantage of Roosevelt to the point that Churchill tried to warn him but Roosevelt would not listen. Churchills warning was an Iron Curtain will divide Europe. Back to if USA did not enter the war Joe Starlin would not have stopped at Poland he would have continued with the red army all the way to the English Channel so the French would be speaking Russian and like every would be invader that 22 miles of water would put an end to their dreams of invasion, and we would still be ordering our meals in English.
And as a foot note the only thing you Americans did give the British was the bill for the lease lend and you where paid back to the last red cent.
By the way your targets for ridicule Montgomery and Churchill. Montgomery was Irish and Churchill was half American.

An amateur ,in every sense of the word, military historian and a plastic paddy to boot. What an embarrassment. Ireland is moving on and leaving you and your fake bitterness behind.
My grandfather served 1914 - 1917 Machine Gun Corps honourably discharged then died in 1941 on active service aged 57 ,his son served in the Eighth Army North Africa then Italy both would have knocked you spark out and my Irish grandmother wouldn’t have given you the time of day.
What has any of your grandstanding to do with the longevity of side by side game guns ? Are we meant to feel sorry for you?
I notice you stated in another thread that you prefer the Latin motto of the Royal Marines then quoted it as Who Dares Wins ,a lack of consistency there RWTF especially when the SAS whose motto is Who Dares Wins had many victories in the six counties against the IRA . The Loughall ambush springs to mind and its been in the news recently you may have noticed. The Royal Marines SBS were also successful in the six counties. I think you may be a bit confused over where your loyalties ,if you have any, lie

Not wishing to enter the US vs UK debate . . . but I do recommend a recent book about Churchill during the Blitz: "The Splendid and the Vile" by Erik Larson (author of "The Devil in the White City" among other books). Makes it clear how bleak things looked for the Brits, when they stood alone against Hitler after the fall of France and before Hitler made the colossal error of attacking the Soviet Union.

You are absolutely correct but isn't that the fortunes of war, one side makes a mistake and the other benefits that is not news.
Though the one person in the whole conflict who did not get the recognition that he truly deserved was Admiral Karl Doenitz. If Hitler had listened to him England would have been on its knees in little under a year and the war won. He was only taken notice of in the closing stages of the Battle of the Atlantic so it was all to late by then.
To draw a line under this I would like to say the one thing that saddens me is if you do visit a German war cemetery it is devoid of visitors and if there are, they are usually relatives of the allied side. Over the years I have personally come to the realization that soldiers killed in battle no matter what side are all equal in death.

Two things, first on the US/UK generals front, do any of you listen to the excellent UK podcast "We Have Ways of Making You Talk"? It is done by the two most entertaining historians I have ever listened to. All about WW2, and they cover this topic exhaustively.

Second, on the wearing out of guns, I will say this as an anecdotal response . . . my battery (I would imagine like most of yours) is a mix of guns from different eras. English pre-WW2, Belgian pre-1980, Spanish post-1990, and very recent Italian. True, I baby the old Brits in terms of loads, and less so the others (although I shoot more gentle loads than any of them are made for), but my repair frequency has been just as high for the Spanish and Italian as the English.

Great discussion.