I was just reading about the CSMC about how their losing some sale..Well they produce DP-12 I have one love the shotgun..Because I love sxs and pump shotguns and rifles..And I wrote and call them about making this firearm version of a DG firearm..by rifled bore double barrel stopping gun..get rid of the pup gun deal..

?

I’m guessing Big Al didn’t have all his thoughts coherently organized when he decided to start a new thread. It was late, maybe a little bourbon involved. Who knows?

I haven't had much satisfaction dealing with them.

I can translate 2:00 AM bourbon speak.

I think Big Al wants a DP-12 with either rifled shotgun barrels for slugs or possibly he wants a big bore rifle caliber option he was not clear.

Big Al needs to understand something: CSMC doesn't care about what he wrote or wants.
JR

A friend and I test fired the DG12 for about fifty rounds, without any malfunctions or failures to feed or fire. It was an impressive firearm and I would like to own one, except for the fact I own about ninety high collector Winchester pump guns and don't need any more. I see no reason that the DG12 can't be a "Dangerous Game" gun in the proper caliber. How about one of those idiot handgun 50 calibers, not a lot of pressure and big enough to feed reliably in the DG12?

PUI...

posting under the influence...

I've started wondering lately about their quality control. They didn't do well on the Fox A Grades that they made for Savage. (Basically an RBL dressed up to look like a Fox. Not necessarily anything wrong with that if they'd done it right.) Then a friend with a new Revelation that had poorly bored chambers.

Screw CSMC! I’d own more of their guns if their QC wasn’t crap, unfortunately, almost every CSMC gun of people I know, has gone back to CSMC to get fixed. I finally gave up on my Inverness and excepted the s@$t bores on the barrels, because I was tired of dealing with them. Eventually their reputation will proceed them, and they will be out of business.

Last gun I picked up they made was a Revelation and that was at the NE SXS event a few years ago. How this gun ever got out for display was beyond me. There was soldering showing where the ribs had joined the barrel and one gun was missing a front bead. They looked good from a distance but once held in ones hand and really looked over, then the obvious flaws began to surface. I asked the sales rep about the obvious issues and his response (which seemed plausible) was these guns were pulled off the rack before they had gone through final QC, so they would have some to display at the event.

Tut, that sounds like a very counterproductive display.

As a CSMC 21 owner I would strongly agree with this gentleman & I would add "God help you" if you ever have to send anything back to them for repair as it will be worse when you get it back. They can't seem to do anything w/o buggering up screws or worse.

I was living about an hour from New Britain when CSMC introduced the 16ga RBL. The pre-production price was very attractive (if I remember correctly, about $2750) and I thought long and hard about making the stretch and sending them a deposit. In the end, I didn’t. Instead I stayed with my long standing approach of saving and watching for certain classic sxs’s. Reading this thread this morning makes me glad I did.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop...73cb99f1adc9eb8

CSMC has been successful by appealing to an affluent clientele with guns and other related paraphernalia perhaps not quite built up to their price point. Some of it's business has come from folks who wish to be thought of as affluent but who really cannot afford the loss when perceived value fails to translate to (after) market value.

The disappointment of that experience has resulted in bad PR for the company. For what they are though CSMC occupies a needed niche in the business, and I do not see them going out of business any time soon...Geo

I wouldn’t buy anything from CSMC. They likely don’t care, but they should. Enough former buyers like me and they will care....and go broke.

I have RBLs in 20 and 28 gauges. Pretty nice guns for the money.

I love my RBL 28 and I love my 20g. Inverness and I have not had any problems with them. Although I sold 2 20g. RBL's that just did not do it for me, I had no trouble with them. I knocked the back corners off on my 20g RBL forearm. They fixed it for free. My inverness went back for a relatively minor mechanical issue and it was fixed promptly. Maybe I have been lucky but I would guess people who post have had a bad experience. Few people post positive experiences because most of those are non issues.

Poorly regulated barrels on a FAIR Iside 12g that they would not fix and said 6" between barrels at 16 yards is within their specs is something I have posted but many like their Isides. So, go figure.

This summer I sent my 20 ga fox which I ordered from them in 1995 back to them for restoration. I have hunted this gun hard for 25 years. They reblued the barrels, refinished and checkered wood, re-casecolored. Turn around time was just over a month. I am very, very satisfied.

I bought a secondhand RBL 28 ga with a problem. I sent it to them and they fixed the problem for free. Got a RBL professional slug gun and never had a problem with it. I have no complaints

I bought a secondhand RBL 28 ga with a problem. I sent it to them and they fixed the problem for free. Got a RBL professional slug gun and never had a problem with it. I have no complaints

I have a couple of CSMC guns and I am happy as can be. My Model 21 .22 rifle is as reliable and accurate as my old Mossburg .22 and my wife's Inverness is as beautiful as any graded Browning Superposed, and is reliable to boot. My point is that these guns are for customers that have lots of disposable income and a willingness to trade them off if not satisfied. Mine are not for sale. I am a bit disappointed that I didn't buy a pair of C Grade CSMC Foxes when offered at $5650 each. I would have been willing to wait a while for those.

Since this thread came up I have a current comment or two. In a fit of careless stupidity I recently allowed the ventilated rib on a 20 gauge A-10 to get bent. They received the barrels yesterday afternoon and I received a call 20 minutes ago that they will be on their way back to me tomorrow. About ten years ago I personally took an A-10 in for a minor ejector timing problem...wasn’t a biggie, just slight enough that since I was back that way I thought I would take it by and leave it with them. They said if you can stick around a while we’ll do it while you wait. I left with it one hour later. During that time I heard them test fire a box of shells through it, they also replaced all the springs, etc. Total cost was zero. I have never had any poor experiences with them or their shotguns.

I have a RBL Launch I picked up from bobby. He had 3 of them and this one was never fired. NIB. I have run about 200 rounds through it with never a issue.

I got each RBL as they came available and have had no issues with any of them. The original RBL-12 I got was exactly what I had ordered but when I got it it was just too heavy and the handling wasn't to my liking. So, I took it with me to The Vintage Cup and spoke with Lou about it. He said to leave it with him and he would see what he could do. Said it might take a while. A few months later I got a phone call while on my way to shoot sporting clays from a lady at CSMC that a package was on its way to the FFL on file with my account. A few days later I had one of the light weight RBL-12s built on the RBL-16 frame.

Researcher, how light was light? That gets my attention. Sounds like it might be an interesting gun for me.

My original RBL-12, straight grip, double trigger, 32-inch, tipped the scales at 8 pounds 14.7 ounces. More than my 32-inch Super-Fox. The second one, straight grip, double trigger, 30-inch barrel weighs 7 pounds 4.9 ounces. Certainly not light by British game gun standards. Interestingly they are both chambered for 3-inch 12-gauge shells. I wouldn't want to shoot many 1 7/8 ounce 3-inch Magnums in the light gun!!

Reseacher, for a 12 on a 16 frame, I certainly would not expect a gun over 7 lbs, or one over 6.5 for that matter. I'm surprised that they weigh so much. No, I would not want to shoot 1.875 oz mags in a sub7# gun or ANY gun frankly, though I've shot a fair number of them and even a few 2 oz loads in a Merkel before I realized just how unnecessary it was for what I do.

I am searching for a new gun but my needs are different.

Thanks for the response though.

I also have a light weight 28" RBL-12 which I specifically ordered when they became available. Even with the changeable buttplate it weighs 7 pounds even. Very nice wood on it, too.

The best to all of you who had good service from CSMC. That is the way it is supposed to be. Maybe you should be buying lottery tickets as well!

I really liked the CSMC concept of bespoke modern production of Fox & Winchester 21 guns as most of the original guns don't have stock dimensions that work well for me. Unfortunately my experience with CSMC as well at that of a close friend of mine was that they provide extremely poor customer service & we both have detailed our experiences on this and other forms several times in the past.

Both of us have positive past experiences with ordering bespoke guns & dealing with gunsmiths so I don't think our expectations of CSMC were unrealistic.

I was so disgusted by my former dealings with CSMC That when my 12 ga CSMC Model 21 became so loose & off face after only around 8000 rounds of low pressure 7/8 oz loads that it clattered when you shook it (and this was with the bolt adjustment screw all the way in) that i sent it to an independent gunsmith that posts on this forum to install a new joint pin & properly fit it to the hook rather than send it back to CSMC for repair under their lifetime warranty.

Something else may go wrong with it in the next 8000 rounds or so but I'm willing to bet that it won't be coming off face again because of a poorly fitted joint pin.

I got my hands on a Savage Fox A Grade that had made the rounds of several other outdoor writers as a field test gun. Frankly, I was impressed. As I said before, basically an RBL dressed up to look like a Fox . . . but since Savage owns the name and they did that once before (Fox Model B, which was a Stevens dressed up to look like a Fox) that didn't bother me all that much. The gun performed perfectly with both factory loads and reloads. I had an assignment to review the gun in Pointing Dog Journal. Liked it so much I decided to buy one. The field test gun had matte finish barrels and I wanted a traditional blue. No problem, they say.

So gun arrives at my gunsmith's with blued barrels. But he points out that there's something strange about the checkering on the wrist. Looks like it's 2-toned. That's because half the panel is clearly coarser than the other half. Not sure how you screw up laser checkering, but they did. So I told them I was sending it back. Profuse apology . . . we'll make sure the next one is right.

Attempt #2 arrived . . . with matte finish barrels, as well as the same screwed up checkering. At which point I told the guy at Savage (or actually the conglomerate that owns Savage) that they really need to lean on CSMC about quality control. Bad marks to both CSMC and Savage for missing that. Also told them that I was done trying to get one that was right, and I wouldn't be doing an article on the gun.

We're talking a gun that retailed in the mid-$4K range, so more like an RBL in that respect than either a Model 21 or an A-10. But when something as glaring as the checkering is messed up, someone's not doing their job. And when those guns were still being marketed actively, I saw several on the Internet (mostly on Cabela's website) with the same messed up checkering. That makes 3 companies that screwed up, because Cabela's should have sent them back to Savage.

I have not had to use CSMC for repair work but my sales experience with them was off-putting. Last spring and summer, I scoured every dealer site and auction house (including prior sales) for a 30” 20ga Fox in CE or XE grade. I located a DE through this board but could not convince the owner to part ways with it. At that point, I decided to order a gun to spec...a CE. I reached out to CSMC in August to understand what the ordering process was and to see if they would take a pair of guns in trade as the deposit. We discussed the specs and my request for just scroll engraving. They gave me a verbal estimate for costs and delivery and committed to accepting the pair as 40% of the total costs based on the pics I sent. I requested everything in writing because it was a significant purchase for me. Over the next several months and multiple “I’ll email you tomorrow” responses, I wondered if I would even get the order in by my birthday in December (I didn’t). They eventually started to waffle on taking the pair and said they needed to see them in person to judge condition and were mumbling about the amount they committed to. Mind you I dealt with the same individual through this whole process. I wound up buying an XE from a dealer this spring that is very close to what I would have ordered. That experience was a complete 180 from my experience with CSMC. Before I bought it, I asked CSMC if they could confirm the XE’s specs when it left their shop (particularly chokes) to which Carol responded “we don’t release private information like that.” Uh, ok. If I buy another CSMC gun, it won’t be through them.

I have two RBLs, one in 20ga and one in 12ga. The 12ga is a heavy frame that I use for duck hunting. Both have been given excellent service. I had an Inverness. Was a beautiful gun but not the quality of the RBLs. I traded the Inverness toward an A-10 Rose&Scroll 12ga w/exhibition wood. The A-10 became loose really quickly so I sent it back to CSMS and they fixed it. The A-10 now has several thousand shells through it and I am happy that I purchased it. My contacts with CSMS have always been positive.

When the RBL 20 was announced, I placed an order for one. When I was visiting NJ, prior to our RBLs being delivered, Builder and I called ahead to CSMC for a tour. We were met by Tony Galazan and he took us on a personal tour for at least an hour. He was humble and polite. They had an impressive operation.

In the years since, I've bought a set of Parker Reproduction barrels from them and they were very high quality.

A friend here had 3 CSM guns, 2 M21s and a Fox in 410. The 21s seemed to give durable duty, but the tiny framed Fox 410 broke ejectors and other parts enough that CSM had the gun longer than my friend in the few years he owned it. So he sold it cheap.

I think CSM has been in a rapid growth phase for the past 10 years or so and is having growing pains. I'd still like to see them succeed.

And there lies the problem with gun writers. You should’ve wrote the article about the gun they sent you. Instead...they wait for a “perfect example” to write a glowing review on. What the consumer will get is usually entirely different.
Seriously, when’s the last time anyone’s read a negative review on a gun? It doesn’t happen that often. It seems gun writers are bound to write more than glowing reviews on the guns in hopes of receiving some sort of perk (free gun, discounted gun, trip, free or discounted services, etc), very few in my circle take a gun review very seriously that appears in a magazine.

I the first Savage Larry was talking about and pictures of the one they wanted him to buy. NOBODY that knows anything about sxs or checkering would have touched that gun with a 10 foot pole. Damned by faint or in this case no praise is what happened. But then I've always felt you could get custom wood and tart up a Japanese SKB and have the same thing for a LOT less than an RBL by ay other name.

I don't know that re-creating a "Classic" gun is very easy. Remington built the 3200 to fill in their line with a quality O/U like the pre-WWII Model 32. The 3200 was a fine gun but missed the overall appeal of the 32 and it broke a lot. I used the Remington's as examples, I have owned and shot competition with both.

AZMike's latest post didn't comment on the subject of the thread. Sorry, Mike, we are not talking about Model 32s or over under shotguns. I would like to know more about CSMC shotguns.

Poorly stocked, shabby laser engraving, limited possibilities.
I think Tony and Lou should be horse whipped then tarred and feathered.















Oh yeah, that's right.
Exhibition Walnut, hand engraved by Masters and you can have them any way you want.
I suppose most of the critics have never even held one let alone shot or hunted with a CSMC double.
2 of the nicest guns I've ever owned.

“[quote=Bob Cash]Poorly stocked, shabby laser engraving, limited possibilities.
I think Tony and Lou should be horse whipped then tarred and feathered. “

Bob, we finally agree on something. Only a sucker would buy that high priced CSMC stuff.

Sounds like sour grapes buzz'd.

Six years ago I visited CSMC to look at some rifles about which I had been communicating with them for a couple weeks. The salesmen who met me was a young guy from Eastern Europe, bright, professional, never discourteous but on the edge of treating me like a tire kicker. One of the rifles was a German sxs that at first glance was exactly what I wanted. Then I noticed the unrepaired cracked wrist and other material problems. Yes, he said, those are real issues. Why didn't you tell me on the phone, I asked. We set that gun aside.
And so it went, though I probably should have bought the sxs rifled 20 ga. shotgun, even when the young man handed me the brochure and told me the price had just gone up $1,200 while I was standing there.
CSMC is a heck of an impressive place. I enjoyed looking around. They have a huge collection of classic, high value guns, many of which I am sure do not have undeclared cracked wrists. But my experience that day waved me off, and I never did do any business with them. I do like the idea of CSMC being successful and sticking around.

His name is Camille. From Poland.
He left CSMC and went to work for Colt I believe.
Also to finish college and to get married.
A good man.

That sounds like the guy who I met with at CSMC.

Aha, you’re right Boob, I should have used the word ‘junk’ rather than ‘stuff’. Sorry. So, just to be accurate, it’s ‘high priced junk’ rather than ‘high priced stuff’.

I have talked with Camille in person at a couple of exhibitions at which CSMC set up for two days. Camille was nice enough but was totally out of his element trying to represent CSMC at a fine gun exhibition in the Low Country of South Carolina. I would probably be thought of as having no personality in his home country, too. It was a big mistake sending him and his girlfriend down to totally represent CSMC. Lou usually comes, and he's one of my favorite people. We just sit and talk for the longest time, whenever he's there. Lou can answer any question you ask about CSMC guns, and does so enthusiastically.

I wish them the best, but can't see myself buying any guns there. For a high-end .410 double it will likely have to be Italian for now, like Chuck.

SRH

There's the nasty bOb I know....

Reading in an ‘08 DGJ this afternoon I came on a full page ad introducing the new CSMC 16ga RBL (as well as the 12ga model) and amazingly the pre-production price was indeed $2750. Clearly, I didn’t give my old brain cells enough credit.
(One caveat, though. That amount was the pre-paid-in-full price.)