Good morning gentlemen (and ladies if any). I acquired an "old shotgun" several years ago to use as a wall hanger. I didn't really look at it too closely until just a few days ago. I was curious about any possible history it might have. Come to find out it's an H. Holland #1108. Started looking for info and found this BBS. There is additional writing on the rib but I haven't been able to make out what it says...yet. It's not in terrible shape, though needs a thorough cleaning. Yes, I know not to mess with the patina, etc. LOL!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The best thing you can do is to remove the barrels, and take a picture of the flats. If you can do that, somebody here will be able to tell you more than you ever wanted to know.
Because back at the turn of the century unscrupulous dealers peddled shotgun’s named similarly to premium brand names, the flats always tell the real story.

Is there info regarding how to go about that? I can probably figure it out because I have a fair amount of experience with guns, etc but would rather be careful than sorry.

Thanks!!!

Start by removing the forend.
Then, push the toplever to the right, and push down on the barrels.
They should roll right off the hinge pin.

It's not hard to do.
Good time to clean and inspect it too.

This a percussion muzzleloader double, not a breakopen.

If there are one or two wedge keys going crosswise in the forearm, push them out, or nearly out, and the barrels should pivot upwards, freeing their hooks from the breech. If there is no key, then removal may be quite a bit more challenging (driving pins).

There is one wedge key. I'll just have to be VERY careful pushing it out. I don't know how stuck they are. Is WD-40 safe to use? Because it will definitely get on the wood. I'll try to post some pics of it in a bit, maybe that will help?

Wedge keys can be tight, but not really a bit problem tapping out. Do not use WD-40 or any solvent or oil. There is mostly just wood in there, and you do not need to soak that too.

If the key has a central slot that you see is visible as it comes out, it will probably not come all the way out. It is a captured key with a pin holding it under the escutcheon. It does not need to be completely removed. Just enough that the tip of the key passes through the barrel loop in the bottom-center of the barrel set.

The loop probably looks something like this


the Key will look like these https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/964/3, either with or without the slot for capture. I would be surprised if yours was NOT captured.

If the key needs a little persuasion after the tip gets below the surface of the escutcheon, use something like a wooden popsicle stick to insert in the slot and tap it out.

If Harris Holland's serial numbers were sequential, you're probably looking at a muzzle-loader built around 1864 or so, when Holland was also making pinfire guns. That's late-ish for a muzzle-loader, though it also means they were at their peak of design and quality.

It has always been fascinating to me that in 1864 a sportsman had the choice of several popular systems to choose from, from percussion to pinfire, needlefire and centrefire.

So, if correct, that puts it just a few years before he took his nephew on as a partner.

I've been looking it over in more detail. I've managed to make out much of the writing on the rib..."? Holland 9?? New Bond Street, London"...which is correct from what I've read. I've also discovered that the right bore still has what looks like wadding in it and the ramrod only goes down about what I would guess to be a loaded chamber. I don't know that for certain of course, though it sure looks like wadding to keep the shot in place.

It has, what appears to be the original Ramrod, though the two keeper loops are missing. You can see where they were at one time though.

I will do some more work on cleaning it and get pictures posted soon.

Thanks for your help so far!

Does the ramrod have a threaded hole in the ferrule on the end? If so, and you could determine the thread pitch, you can get a "worm" that fits in there. You then use the ramrod as a "screwdriver" and screw the worm into the wadding securely, then pull it out. You can then "dig" out the old shot charge. There will be a wad also between the shot and the powder. After removing it you can "dig" out the old powder charge. You will almost certainly find that the old powder has attracted moisture and has rusted the breech area badly.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=worm

Before doing any of this I would prop the gun with the muzzles up and pour a copious amount of WD-40 down onto the old charge. Leave it several days for the liquid to soak down into the powder, rendering it inert. You cannot be certain it is inert without doing so, and you are in harm's way as you stand in front of the muzzles trying to remove the charge. I have pulled charges without doing that, but I wasn't giving advice to someone else, it was me and me.

If you're thinking "It's 150 years old, it's harmless" I offer this as a side note to show how long black powder can remain viable, under perfect conditions ............. I have a friend who used to be a fanatical WBTS artifact collector. He used a Nautilus metal detector and once found a big cannonball several feet deep. Some time after getting it home he found that he could remove the "fuse", or whatever the part is that set off the explosion upon impact. He did so and found a goodly amount of grayish colored black powder therein. He removed it, and on a whim, loaded some into a flintlock rifle and fired it. It was a bit weak, in his opinion, but still usable some 120 + years after the late unpleasantness had ended.

SRH

Thanks Stan. I promise I don't have any illusions about how dangerous that charge could be or how corrosive BP is. I considered it a nice wall hanger when I bought it and still do. I didn't intend to ever attempt to shoot the gun. I was just hoping to have some history to go along with it.

I contacted Holland & Holland, they will send me a history of the gun, which is nice. I might inquire about the cost of restoration to see if it can be cleaned up. May not be worth it though, considering it is not likely not ever be shootable.

MJH

Actually, BP is not very corrosive at all. It's fouling is, but the powder, not really. It will be compacted and stuck together but getting it out is not going to be that hard if you have a breech face scraper. However, it is also easily "dissolved" with water. Water is a far better solvent for bp than any oil and you will be able to remove it in a minute or two. It would be interesting to see what that powder looks like if you get it out dry.

If you have a half decent gunshop near by, you might find they have a "worm" such as Stan described and a scraper that will fit an 8 or 10 by 32 tpi cleaning rod. For a few bucks, it would be worth it. You don't need a shotgun gauge-specific one either, though that would be nice.

Eventually however, you will be well served by scrubbing the breech with water and patches on brushes, drying, using WD40 to assist with that and then oiling as per normal.

Ah, now I learned something. I always thought the sulfur in black powder, when combined with moisture, was quite corrosive when in contact with metal.

I've inquired about the cost of possible restoration by Holland & Holland, though I'm sure this would be quite expensive. Might still be worth it though.

GO, it's just not hydroscopic. That's why bp stays viable, more or less, forever.

I sure wish you would post some detailed pictures of the gun. Must be a beauty. And it may be perfectly fine to shoot (or not).

If the barrel was loaded when it was clean, I would expect the chamber area to be in pretty good condition.

Yes, it would be nice to see some pics. If you get a quote from H&H for restoration you had better be sitting down. The gun has no sentimental value to you so you need to give careful consideration to having a restore done by the likes of H&H. You can, however, still breathe some new life into it without going to the expense of a full restoration by H&H. Mind you, I have no clue about your financial status and maybe money is no object as far as a restoration cost. If that is the case "go for it" as it is nice to have these guns resurrected. That is providing there is something there worth working with in the first place.

Yea, I expect it to be on the high end of expensive. I might also look for a good gunsmith who specializes in this type of firearm. There are still a few old-school artisans around. Though they are becoming scarce.

Who knows, maybe it will be enough to do some light cleaning on my own and, with the history I get from H&H I'll be content.

I will try to get some pictures posted later today or tomorrow. Have to find a website to host them since I can't upload directly.

Grumpy, if you decide a full restoration is not feasible for you check the thread for my 11ga W. Morse & Co. percussion SxS which begins in August of ‘19. I decided to just thoroughly clean and stabilize this family heirloom and Steve (SKB) was a great help as were others of this forum.

My apologies if I gave some wrong information concerning black powder attracting moisture and causing rust. I was only going on past experience. When I hunted with roundball guns I once loaded my.54 cal. Leman and hunted that afternoon without taking a shot. I left the rifle loaded, thinking I would go again soon. I didn't, and ended up leaving it loaded for three months. When I pulled the charge and cleaned it I found that the chamber where the powder charge had been had rusted badly. I naturally assumed that moisture had caused it. It did not affect accuracy as it is behind the ball.

There was not a trace of any rust in the breech prior to leaving that load in it. Brent, if the powder couldn't have caused it, what did?

Don't know Stan, but bp is not hygroscopic. I, and others have tested that quite thoroughly, and it is well documented in the literature as well. That is why loads that are 200 yrs old will detonate just fine.

FWIW, I routinely wipe all the oil from my flintlock and load it on or about 19 December, carry it all over central Iowa, and unload it w/o firing on the evening of Jan 10 and never find a spec of rust.

When I prepare mine for hunting I wipe the bore as dry as possible then pour alcohol down the barrel and let it run out the nipple. Hard to be assured you've gotten it all out of the drum and nipple if you don't. Of course, not an issue with sparkguns. I still don't understand why moisture was attracted to the chamber area of my rifle if the bp had nothing to do with it. Guess I'll never know.

Perhaps you used isopropyl alcohol aka "rubbing alcohol? Lots of water in that.

I remove oil with a patch, run a pipe cleaner through the flash channel and again into the nipple while visually verifying that the nipple is clear. Then load and go with no concern.

Thanks for the tip CreekFan! I will certainly look that up. May even just forgo sending it off at all.

MJH

Grumpy, the thread actually resides now back on p. 27 (14 Apr 20). I forgot and gave you the originating post date. Sorry.

Thanks FallCreekFan...I was just looking for it and was getting a bit confused.

Denatured alcohol.

SRH

I've had very good luck with Old South Restoration for guns like this, but his waiting time is a yearish.

I confess that when I acquired an old cape gun with a stuck charge I pulled the nipple, poked powder out with a wire, poured in a dash of 4F, reset the nipple, and shot the charge out.

I know nothing about guns prior to about 1880, and in fact it's not even an area I'm particularly interested in; but I must say this has been a fascinating discussion that I've enjoyed thoroughly even as a bystander.

Finally got some so-so pics to post.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/N2bCbpht6sGqtRmQ7

You are going to like that one when it cleans up.

Good find!

Very nice find !

Yeah, I like it now...LOL Gonna be even happier when I get it cleaned up. Gonna see if it is shootable, though I doubt it. We'll see though. Gonna be a while but I'll post pics when it's done.

Edit: Bore measures out to .729 which I guess makes it a 12 Bore?