What is the allure of the Browning Superposed guns? I ask out of curiosity, not with any prejudice.

Is it because they are American guns, or nostalgia, because many are becoming vintage?

I have never owned one, but have always wondered why many prefer them over a 680 series Beretta, for instance.

SRH

They were aspirational in the 50's, 60's.
In the same way a Parked Dhe was known as the "Doctor" grade.

They represented success, and accomplishment, good taste, and were marketed as such.

It’s often said in the uk that you are either best suited to a beretta or a Miroku. The Miroku tends to be stocked a little lower and has lighter barrels or livelier handling than the average Beretta ,in 12 bore, or did have years back in the 1990s. The early Beretta 682 sporters had steadier handling the Miroku fixed choke long barrelled trap guns with the chokes opened a bit were often thought to handle better ie livelier.
Of the two the fixed choke MK60 makes for a nicer game gun IMHO

I knew that, CZ. My question is concerning the present.

SRH

To understand the allure of a Superposed you have to shoot one
and sense the ejection, cocking cycle and essence.

I have a locker full of Superposed in 12, 20, 28 and 410 and find them most pleasureable to shoot.

Better than others? Maybe not, but I like them.

Mike

Thanks, Mike. What is it exactly about the ejection and cocking cycle that are different?

SRH

fit, finish and balance are somewhat better...plus they just feel and look good, especially the pre war guns...

Most of it is nostalgia Stan.

It's a link to the great master designer, so in that aspect it's an American gun.

They had a lot of handwork and the barrels are not monobloc.

The half pistol grip stock appeals to many, me included.

Mine is a plain 12 gauge field gun and I do enjoy it but then I like them all. As far as the action and ejectors, I don't find anything real special there except the part about how I never remember how sharp the ejectors are until I get a finger nicked catching shells. Happens every time.

The 20 gauge Superposed has remarkable dynamics, and the 20 gauge version of the Citori is essentially the same handling wise.

I consider my 20 gauge Citori XS Sport model to have the best overall dynamics of anything I've ever used to date including the 20 gauge Italian guns.

It's a direct descendant of the Superposed.

I'm certain you would enjoy a Superposed should the opportunity present, especially a 20.

bet bob cash could provide a good answer to the question...

Stan,

What does a strawberry taste like

The system is highly leveraged and secure

Do you not have any one close by with a
20 Gauge Superposed that you can try out.

She will bring a smile to your face.

Come to Amarillo and we will shoot lots

Mike

The barrels of the Browning superposed are of demibloc construction which equates to chopper lump in side by side guns. More expensive to produce than monobloc. The 20 bore guns are sweet, esp the 28” guns, imho. The lightning 20 ga guns are very well balanced and usually weigh about 6 1/4 lbs. I’ve hunted with one for years. My last grouse hunt, I initially hunted with my 20 ga Beretta ASEL. After missing a couple, out came the Browning Super and I had some better luck hitting. Nothing quite so nice as an old and well worn friend to hunt with!

Hello Stan.
How is your recovery faring?
Before I forget, my best to you and yours this holiday season.

The 28 gauges are my favorite.

Here is a 1967 Pigeon Grade, 28" Sk/Sk



Here is one that I had cobbled together. 1968 Pointer Superlight 28" Sk/Sk


A 1967 .410 28" barrels Full/Mod
Art has had it since before the Corona and has fitted a set of new (read old, I bought them in the white) 28 gauge barrels for a sub gauge 2 barrel set.


To put it quite simply, they are the "Bees Knees".
They feel great. They look great. They shoot great.

For me, I shoot them better than the 680 guns.

I have owned several SP 680 guns including a 686 Joel Echen 20/28 special with beautiful wood that I tried to love but couldn’t. I punished myself for a year trying to shoot that gun well and finally sent it down the road.

The superposed seems to handle better to me. Especially the prewar through the 50’s.

I’m also fond of the higher grades with the hand engraving. Still looking for a Grade IV.

Are most of the 20 ga. Supers barreled 26 to 28 inches? How many are there around that have 30" barrels?

Any difference in handling between the short tang and long tang models?

I've never had the problem shooting the Berettas that some of you have. I bought my 687 SP II Sporting in 2003 to take to Argentina. It has since been back again, been used here on local dove shoots and sub-gauge sporting clays competitions to good result. Never one breakdown of any kind. I shoot it very well, and have won 20 sub-gauge with a 49 X 50.

Just wondering what makes the Supers command the prices they bring, and if there's something I've been missing out on. Been shooting competitive sporting for nearly twenty years and have never seen a Superposed at a sporting clays shoot. Wonder why? I dunno.

Thanks for the replies so far!

20 years...

A very short time in Browning Superposed history.

The guy that can't afford the Italian race car thinks he needs a Perazzi and wouldn't be caught dead with a vintage Browning.

Most superposed Browings are vintage guns...Only guys shooting vintage guns are shooting sxs.

A new plain Jane Browning Superposed starts at 8 grande and has to be special ordered...

Take your pick.

30" 12 gauges are plentiful but there never was a 30" 20 gauge. The long tang / short tang represented a time (1967) when Browning was beginning to feel the pinch.
Things were getting expensive, especially skilled Belgian labor and the tang and knob changes represented cost savings. Some will say the earlier guns were of better quality.
It wasn't too many years later when Browning moved Superposed production to a custom shop status and began the Citori line (a Superposed knock-off) in Japan.

$8000? You must be kidding? RWTF

I have only two supers left in the rack. Both are 12 with two triggers. Both started out as single/double triggers. One long ago was converted to straight double trigger operations but the other is still a single/double trigger. Or a double/single as my old gunsmith liked to call them. Browning apparently converted them to straight double operation if they were returned for repair. Claimed parts were no longer available to repair otherwise. Oh to live in times before lawyers.

They are pleasure to shoot. Both have seen a lot of heavy use, so metal finish is getting very thin condition wise. I don’t have the interest in a full refinish job, just to make them look “almost” new. So they will remain as is, until my sons decide what to do with them. They are on the “do not sell list” after I pass on. I did find a set of Super Tubes, so I can shoot 20, 28 & .410 in them as well. Again fun guns to shoot a few rounds at skeet or sporting clays. In the field they work even better.

When I was in the market for an O/U I wanted to buy a Browning.
A Superposed was out of my financial reach but a Citori wasn't That's when I learned that they just plain didn't fit me. So, I tried a Beretta. Well, the Beretta fit me just fine. So, I have Beretta 686's plus 2 3091's. They all fit me and work just fine. I have yet to find a Browning shotgun that I can shoot well at all. I'm certainly not knocking them, fine them to be fine guns but they just don't work for me. If I ever run across a Browning Superposed in my price range I'd snap it up and try to make it work for me once again. But I won't give up my Beretta's.

While I agree the Citori is a Superposed 'knock-off', and is not a Superposed, they do have certain advantages in the modern world.

They are made of better steel. They are affordable. The forend arrangement is more practical. Choke tubes are standard. The smaller gauges are available with 30" barrels. They are user serviceable, if you have a set of spring pliers a firing pin and spring set takes about half an hour, but so is a Super. The guns are very simple unlike a certain brand from Germany.

Browning was finally convinced the universal porting on their target guns was costing them sales and introduced the CX/CXS series guns. They represent a terrific value.

Not a 'Superposed', but in many ways better for modern times.

While actually in use and mounted to your shoulder it would be difficult to tell the difference between two Lightning field guns, one from Belgium and one from Japan.

My favorite Super was always the Pigeon Grade. One has eluded me so far.

I have owned several over/unders including Citoris and a Beretta. For some reason they just didn't suit me and they all went down the road. Then about 5 years ago I ended up with my uncle's 20 gauge superposed. It is a joy to shoot, handle, and it fits me very well. I still have it, not because it was my uncles' but because it is just a great handling gun for me. You need to shoulder one to know.

I shot O/U for many years mostly Win 101's, Japanese Charles Daly(Miroku), Breda and Marlin 90. I picked up a Browning Superposed Lightning 20gga 28", I had the stock fitted to me (shortened nearly an inch) and the chokes opened to IC and IM. My buddies called it the Magic Gun, on wild pheasants and sharptails it was like it had a built in homing device. When I decided to concentrate on sxs's I sold it to a fellow for his wife and got a call a few week later and said the shotgun was ust perfect for her and she smiles every time she takes it out.

Crappy picture but, my favorite gun. #1725 in 90%+ condition (I think?). I wonder if it is collectable? I can take some better photos if there is any interest in helping me ascertain what I have.

Also have a shot tang 12 and a long tang 20. I just hit with these. Probably done buying anything else.

-really should have cropped my toes out

I really appreciate all the comments. It seems that most of the allure is ......."I just like them". Nothing wrong with that. It's why I prefer Foxes over Lefevers, or Ithacas. Unless I overlooked something no one has offered any hard and fast mechanical reasons for preferring them over other O/Us. All of which makes sense when you consider that no-one shoots them at competition sporting, a game in which getting just one more target can make the difference in $$$$ and also ran, and breakdowns are much less tolerated than in hunting. Other O/Us are just better suited to the game, evidently.

I would have no interest in a 20 Super unless it was at least 30" barreled. Might be fun for doves and woodies, but that's where I like 30" tubes. I'm going to use a S X S 20 ga. on quail, or my Verona O/U 28. Or, occasionally, a S X S .410. And, I have no interest in a Superposed 12. either. My only O/U 12 ga. is my competition gun. When I hunt with a 12 ga. it is a S X S.

Mike, the only way I can understand your answering my question, with a question about a strawberry, is to say that you must mean that you like the way the ejectors and sears sound when they fire or recock, since you obviously can't taste them.

Glad so many people enjoy them. Another legacy of a master gun designer.

SRH

Huh, Stan? I don’t remember saying anything about strawberries, although I do like them, esp cooled with a little sugar and whipped cream over shortcake. ...and for competition, I prefer a Perazzi that fits over Beretta that doesn’t . But, there’s nothing wrong with the Browning guns either, if they fit, but again I’d rather shoot a Perazzi that fits. If Perazzi doesn’t fit, I’d rather shoot a Beretta that does or a Browning that does. So, how do you like your strawberries, Stan??.

I apologize, buzz. That was Mike (skeetx). My rememberer isn't what it used to be! Ouch!

Fresh strawberries only for me, buzz.

SRH

I thought it was a dumb azz question from the git go...

Just saying.

That's comforting.

I was hoping you would ask me why....

You keep doing that, and .......hold your breath.

I love your O/U, Bob! And love 28 ga too!

I have a 28 ga B525 and I´m very happy with "her" (all my guns have their own personality). A very strong shotgun with an incredible and consistent closure (I don´t know how to tell when you close a shotgun and hear the sound).

Regards!

I’m curious if Don Amos has any swing dynamic numbers that he could reply to this thread, that might explain why some people shoot them well.

The browning designed action has a lot of mass right in the middle it’s deeper and heavier than others.

Maybe it’s general design hits the middle of the road for average sized people.

That could offer an explanation of some of their popularity.

The citori 12 bore I owned was noticeably heavier in the barrels than the supposedly identical Browning 425 I had. I am assuming that the Browning 425 was designated for the European market and balanced similar to a Browning B25. My order of preference would be the European marketed 425 then the 687 game model and lastly the citori . Of the three ,from memory, the citori had the most drop and the beretta the least. The European 425 in fixed choke model was very similar to the Miroku MK60 in weight and balance and much like the more expensive B25 superposed models. If you were looking for B25 handling for Beretta money I would recommend the Miroku MK60.

I’m in luck then.
I shoot a pair of Miroku High Pheasant 20’s when double gunning. LOL!

You are a lucky man. I owned a lower grade 20 bore Miroku and stupidly sold it.
I have a grade 5 12 bore that I was considering trading for a 20 but the lead shot ban is making me hold fire. I would be using it for walked up shooting rather than driven. If I was buying a gun specifically for high driven birds I would be favouring a heavier 12 bore but not with fixed choke 3/4 and full as it’s a bit too tight for the average birds I usually shoot so I would probably opt for the greater flexibility of a multichoke.The MK60 teague choked would be a good choice to retain the better balance of the fixed choke models. MK60s are well thought of shotguns and great value for money especially in the higher grades I’ve heard of many UK shooters who have turned their backs on more expensive sporters and returned to the Miroku line of guns especially the MK38.
Do you double gun here in the UK ? It’s not an experience I hanker after. My sporting exploits are satisfied with the rate of fire from a single gun and ejectors ,even using non ejectors , it gives me more time to look around and savour the whole experience that is sporting shooting. I wouldn’t want to miss a woodcock or snipe sliding past or a skein of geese passing in the distance in my effort to sustain a barrage on incoming pheasants or partridges which I expect would become quite repetitive. But each to his own.

I'm probably going to regret this.... chiming in on a thread around here is usually a way to get insulted by people who are more noted for their rudeness than their shooting experience/knowledge....But Mr. Stan H. is a very personable and keen shot who has asked a question that I might be able to shed some light on....Some of it ,like others here posted, is personal preference.... but a LOT of it is actual field and competition experience gathered over a period of 53 years, 1967 being my first experience with a Browning O/U.

At the time I got my first one of my own (1968) it was the only high grade O/U READILY available that could stand up to competition level use. When I began registering ATA trap targets in '67 it was the prevailing O/U on most any fields making up 75% of the O/U guns in use.
It was even a higher percentage of dedicated trap double guns.

When I shot my first Columbaire pigeons(a BIG game in Texas in those days)it made up probably 90% of the guns in use.
The leading contenders of the time almost to a man used a Superposed of some type.

When I shot my first Box Birds in the U.S.(1976)they were far and away the most common gun on the grounds of the major shoots of the period. Many being the trap double guns of competitors who shot both games. Back then most every leading Box Bird shooter gravitated to the game from ATA trap. A few exceptions, but Most ATA All Americans of the period crossed over to the ring and performed with similar success.

I shot my 30" Lightning Trap model for my first top score in late 1976 and my first 25 straight 3 months later in February of '77 at the U.S. Flyer Championship, held then at the Dallas Gun Club at its old Royal Ln. location. I used the same gun to win the U.S. Flyer title on those grounds in 1979.

My first trip to Europe to shoot pigeons was to Milan in '79 and the Browning/FN gun in some form made up @25-30% of the guns on the grounds. It was still the most used by Americans, French, and Belgian shooters. Italian guns naturally made up the bulk of the guns used in Italy at the time.

Stan, I don't keep up with the Sporting clay scene , but I do know that British top gun, John Bidwell of "Move, Mount and Shoot" fame won English, World and FITASC titles with an FN manufactured Browning sporting gun. He later took a better paying contract with another company(Blaser maybe).

Although the Perazzi O/Us make up the majority of the guns at American and European pigeon shoots today, the FNs still appear regularly, including the 28" wide rib model used by a noted Portuguese shooter who won 2 World championships and later a Veteran World Championship all with the same gun.

Although I have not competed with one for years now, I still use the guns in various forms almost daily during various bird seasons in Texas. The 20 gauge gun is probably the most dynamic and keenly proportioned of the guns....they just seem to "click".

As to 30" 20 bore FN's, they are custom shop items , and have been for years now. I have a 30" 20 ga. D5G gun. After seeing this thread , I got it out and used it yesterday afternoon. As fine a gun as one could want.... and as you know I have others with more prestigious (costly) names on them.
Just one man's observations.

Here's one you might like Stan.
A Belgian Browning 525 20 gauge, 32" barrels, Teague choked. 6lb 12 oz

Thanks for the insight Mel5141. Very interesting read.

I have been a superposed fan for years and have never been able to explain just what it is about them that makes me shoot them better than other guns I own. The closest I can come is that it’s just the feel of the gun.

The one I have never owned is a Broadway trap. Some day I intend to pick one of these up.

Thanks Paul, for your observations and experience with them. It helps me put them in perspective a lot better.

One thing I wonder...... have you ever noticed FTF on the bottom barrel? I have heard that, because the bottom firing pin strikes at a 45° angle, it fails to fire sometimes on shells with deep primer seating. Browning supposedly corrected this later by lengthening it .015". I wonder because FTF is an anathema to a flyer shooter.

Stan, glad to hear your recovery is going well.

Although you asked a question about present day, there's more nostalgia involved with the Browning than any other OU in this country. It was the gun that got Americans interested in OU's. And a lot of guys are shooting them today because they've been in the family since granddad bought it . . . maybe right before or (more likely) right after WWII. The reason so many people shoot OU's today is because the Superposed got it all started in this country. If you didn't own one and you were into target shooting, it's likely you aspired to own one.

Looking at prices, think of it this way--and I'll stick with the basic Lightning: The guns have become classics, and especially in 12ga, you can buy a nice used one for a very reasonable price for a classic double. 20's are a good bit more expensive (far fewer of them than 12's). But if you're into nostalgia and your taste runs to OU's, they're cheaper than a Fox AE or a Parker VHE--and they'll shoot modern ammo, which some of the Parkers and Foxes won't.

I'm pretty sure it was McIntosh who described the Superposed as being more complex than it needed to be . . . but he compared it to the Parker, which is similarly complex. But they both work.

I'm not an OU guy, but I've owned a couple 20ga Supers, and they shoot well for me. And when I think about a lightweight field gun for grouse, woodcock, and quail, I have to think of a good reason not to buy a 20ga Superlight. Just something about them.

I have to admit I'm another Superposed fan, despite the lack of exposed hammers...

Early Superposed guns marked only Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre made their way to Canada, before being available in the USA with Browning markings. Here is a 1930 field-grade Superposed marked in this way, serial number less than 500. I also have a 1951 20-gauge with similar markings (though with the single trigger).

I'm a whispy English sidelock kind of a guy, but I love Browning Superposeds. Somehow, I always shoot them well, and I think a lot of guys say the same thing. The balance is just so perfectly between the hands.

My father was a Superposed guy and a target shooter, so I have a lot of experience with them, and the reliability has always been superb (for us).

My particular Superposed favorites are any Dianas, Lightnings with 28" barrels (especially 20's), and the Superlight.

The gun's design has been criticized by various writers over the years for one perceived fault or another.....but they have some qualities that make them excellent field guns.....John Browning knew something about guns and human anatomy as well.... one design feature I am very fond of is the fact that the action, when broken open , either after the ejectors have been tripped or just simply opened, STAYS OPEN, unlike the Beretta and Perazzi (and Boss or the Woodard/Purdey) it is not necessary to pull down on the rear of the gun to load the bottom barrel. Particularly important to me when trying to mark downed birds for a young dog or an indifferent retriever. I can reload without any distraction from the gun itself. The guns open and Close easily when broken in.
The late gun editor Capt. Paul Curtis, singing the praises of the newly introduced Superposed in the early 30's, said he considered it the equal of the British offerings of the time an a fraction of the cost. He described the working of the gun as being "like velvet on velvet, so fine is the fit and finish"

Thanks again, Paul. Sounds like the bottom firing pin issue is a NON-issue. My questions have been answered satisfactorily.

Thanks to all who tried to answer helpfully.

Best, SRH

Stan, you jogged my memory.
Some years ago, maybe 25, a Browning collector at my club showed me a high grade, high mileage Superposed with a wopped out bottom barrel firing pin hole, that bound enough to break firing pins.
I remember him talking about having it bushed.

So, I guess it would always be good to look at the hole prior to purchase.

Thanks for the prompt, CZ. I have been busy and short on time, so reading was all I'd had time for until now. Stan, I imagine the following will stir memories of a discussion of handling you and I had.

Review of my views on gun handling follows. Handling is a product of four factors: weight - measured in pounds, balance (teeter-totter) - measured in inches from the (front) trigger, unmounted swing effort - expressed as moment of inertia about/around the balance point (center of gravity)times 10, and mounted swing effort - expressed as moment of inertia times 10 about the butt of the gun. There is no one objective number that sums the foregoing four. There is also a factor named half weight radius that shows how much the weight is spread out or compacted.

A review of my data showed I'm woefully short on Superposed guns. However, I'll share some of what I have right now.

Superposed 20 gauge, 28" bbls, 14 3/4" LOP, 6# 10 oz weight, 4 3/4 inch balance, 1.80 unmounted, 7.24 mounted, 11.22" HWR.

Bertuzzi Gull Wing 12 gauge, 28" bbls, 14 3/4" LOP, 6# 10 oz, 4 3/4" balance, 1.54 unmounted, 6.98 mounted, 10.38 HWR.

As you can see, the weight, bbl length, LOP, and balance are identical. The Bertuzzi, with 0.26 lower MOI unmounted, would be a might easier/quicker to change direction of pointing. The Browning's 0.84 higher HWR shows a lower compactness which explains the Bertuzzi's lower unmounted swing effort in spite of the identical weight, balance, bbl length and LOP. The biggest difference between the two is that the Bertuzzi had a $250,000 hang tag attached. Far be it from me to criticize the Bertuzzi - it was one magnificent gun. And, the Browning was a Superposed - and that requires no explanation on this board.

The two would have handled very similarly. However, it is unlikely that gripping areas were the same shape, size, and texture so the guns would have had differing feel. The stock dimensions beyond LOP probably were different so the gun fit would have been different.

I have a 0.410 Superposed in the back of my safe that I haven't measured. Will post it in a couple of days.

Thanks, Don. Yes, I do remember well our conversation, and how the light came on for me when you explained it all, as you spun that little doublegun. That helps a lot.

What would really help me in understanding the Superposed handling is if you had the numbers on a 20 ga. Silver Pigeon II Sporting. Then I could really have something tangible to compare it to. From what I've been able to gather there is more to the allure of a Super than just the handling. It's the overall feel of using the gun..............it's smoothness of operation and appearance. And, I did well note what Paul pointed out about not having to press down against the springs to get the shell in the bottom barrel when reloading. That is a peeve of mine on many O/Us.

There are certain sounds that are just "right." A skilled operator running a Model 12 and the snick of the ejectors of a Superposed after crushing a double.

I think the 525s were all manufactured by Miroku in Japan. The B125s were parts sourced from Miroku and assembled in Belgium though but I do not know if their actions were the same as the B25s or the simplified Miroku action. From memory I think the B125s had the non detachable fore end as a feature

Assembled and proofed in Belgium for the European market, no kidding.
Lighter than a similar 28 gauge 425 with 30” barrels. B125 you say?
I thought since the serial# began 525... nicest Japanese Superposed / Belgian Citori I’ve ever had.

As far as I am aware and I thought it was common knowledge the 325,425,525,625 and the present 725 Brownings are all made by Miroku in Japan. I think the Citori model of the time is based on those Miroku made models but is heavier in the barrels and stocked lower than those Brownings intended for the U.K. market.
The B125 is a Miroku parts shotgun which is finished in Belgium and has the fixed forend akin to the B25 whereas the 325 etc Miroku built shotguns all have a detachable forend.
The B25 guns were manufactured completely in Belgium and have a slightly more complex mechanism than the Miroku built shotguns.
The Miroku range of sporting guns are the MK60 fixed 1/4 3/4 choked guns ,the MK70 multichoked and the MK38 multichoke.
I couldn’t say if your gun serial number starting 525 indicates that it is a 525 Miroku built Browning.
If you were to look on the UK guntrader site you will be able to see pictures of the above models for sale which may aid in clarifying.