New member here…… and a little about me:
I’m 50 years old
I’m and Engineer
My hobbies are hunting, fishing, spearfishing, shooting (USPSA and 3Gun)
I have been reloading since I was about 12 years old. My Dad always reloaded for shotgun since before I was born. I got us started in metallic rifle and pistol around 1991. I have dies and components for probably 50 or more calibers including 12, 20 and 410 shotshell.
Just giving a little bio so you know who you are speaking to and can adjust your responses accordingly.

One subject that I don’t know much about is vintage double guns. So I’m looking for some direction from you guys.

Reason for this post is I want to purchases a vintage American double barrel. Here is a list of what I’m looking for and what the gun will be used for.

1) Good shooter…this gun will be used for squirrel and rabbit hunting here in south Louisiana. Maybe some duck hunting with 2.5” light bismuth loads or similar…. Quail and any other wing shooting that I would do. I go to Kansas on occasion bow hunting and this gun would make that trip to kill a few pheasant.

2) I have decided on a 12 gauge for a few reasons, I only have two other 12 gauges, I have an excessive amount of reloading components for 12 gauge and have worked up some killer 1 oz loads of #5 to shoot thru my suppressed 870 that have a muzzle velocity of about 900 fps and crush squirrels out to 40 yards or a bit more…..so I have faith that I can make light loads for the old 12 gauge that will do whatever I want. And I see they are typically much cheaper than the smaller guns.

3) I do want an American double. My granddad had an L C Smith that was shot to death. My uncle has it now but unfortunately won’t give it up. I have looked at the Fox, L.C. Smith, Ithaca, Parker, Lefever, Iver Johnson, Remington 1900,…. and of all of them I have found, for me the lower grade Fox seem to be more appealing visually speaking. They are all works or art when you get up into the high grades but of the guns I have looked at Fox is leading in the low grade guns.

4) I would prefer a gun that was original and not re-finished or restored but that’s not a deal breaker. As long as it looks original. Most important is mechanical condition. And second is what the gun is choked for and third would be looks. I would like a gun on the lighter side 7.5# or less. As chokes go I believe an IC / Full would be perfect for what I will do with the gun. I have seen a few of those. Second choice would be Mod / Full.

5) At First I was going to stay away from the Damascus guns but after reading a lot about them they are not as scary. I’m looking for advice on this issue.

So what do I want to know? With the above info what guns would you select, what guns would you stay away from, what guns are easier to keep running and maybe find parts for?

Any recommendations on gunsmiths that work on these old doubles?

What are some of the best places to buy an old Double? If you know of a gun shop that you trust please share….. or what online site typically have the most to look at.

What do you guys think about shooting Damascus guns?

From my research it seems like most of these old guns have short chambers. For fold crimp what would be max shell length? For roll crimp what would be max shell length? How to interpret a chamber casting to determine max shell dimensions? I have cast a few rifles that were not marked for caliber.

And lastly gun values. For example what is a reasonable price for a field grade Ithaca Flues 12 gauge original gun with little remaining finish, mechanically sound some pitting with great bores. $600 or $1200 dollars. It’s not that I will ever sell the gun after buying it but I would like to get the most gun for my money is all. I don’t want to buy a plain Ithaca with my $1500 when I could have bought a higher grade Fox for the same. As far as budget I would like to keep it below $1500 if possible.

Thank you for reading thru this terribly long post. I apologize for that but I wanted to be as thorough as possible.

And thanks in advance for your comments
Eddie.

Welcome to the forum, Eddie. Sounds like a game rich place where you live, hunt and fish.

Excellent post. Based upon it I'd recommend a Fox Sterlingworth with 28-30" barrels. No more reliable vintage doublegun exists. Only three moving parts in each lockwork. Reliable ejectors, if you like them (I do). The action rarely fails. "Reasonably" priced because so many were made and sold. And, so many were made and sold because they were such a great value, inexpensive...... but very well made.

And, I agree with you about the visual aspect. No prettier box lock was ever made, IMO.

Best wishes, SRH

see your private messages...re nice early sterlingworth in transit to me...

some answers to your questions:

i would go for the fox sterlingworth... there are really no classic american made doubleguns to stay away from, except for those that suffer abuse...

fox guns are easy to keep running and parts can be found or
made...

as to gunsmiths, currently utilising the services of ray simard in nh...gunter pfrommer in va and lou rotelli in ct...as a matter of interest lou is also an engineer...

places to buy are where the seller guarantees his merchandise and will make deal right for you if undisclosed major problem with gun is discovered upon receipt or limited use...

in general, damascus guns should not be fired on a regular basis...these old relics should be babied and preserved...

as for chamber length, measure with a simple feeler gauge, like the one offered by csmc and others...then purchase or load your own with appropriate length shells...avoid lengthening chambers, as that is frowned upon by some...

as to 12 ga flues values, as you describe your gun, well worn, 12 ga...guess a value of about $250...

as to what to expect to pay for a sterlingworth, as you describe...you should be able to find what you want for around a $1000...

hope this helps...

Thank you Stan. Is there any mechanical differences between the Sterlingworth and the higher grades? Are they just as reliable?

Got it Ed. Send me pics when you get it.

Just as reliable. The internals on a Sterlingworth are exactly like the higher grade Foxes.

SRH

Weren't Sterlingworths the ones that were kinda prone to the receivers cracking ?

Receivers or stocks at the receiver?

My question was to the x'spurtz...hopefully they will explain it to you.

I will say I don't see where I mentioned the stock.

I’ve never heard that about a Fox shotgun, Sterlingworth or high grade. Maybe jOe is thinking about the 20 ga Ithaca Flues which were prone to cracking??

I think I recall seeing a few on here that the receivers had cracked.

Keith would know.

Any reservations about using a LeFever as a shooter? There is one a few hours from me that I'm considering going take a look at.

Seems like you already got it figured out Sticker.

Go with the Fox Sterlingworth, a great, well built and very reliable double.

Elsies, are very nice but be careful as you no doubt researched, they are very prone to getting cracks behind the lock plates. I have 2, my Granddad's 12Ga. and 20Ga. FW. The 12Ga. still has the original stock with no cracks and the I had the 20 restocked to fit me. It did have a crack in the original stock. I suspect if you are going to use your own reloads, and Elsie with good wood would hold up well to low pressure reloads. I feed mine a seedy diet of RSTs with no issues. If you could find a 12GA FW, Elise that would fit the bill nicely weight wise, again depending on the wood.

Another option would be an Ithaca NID. On the heavy side, but built like a tank.

I hope you enjoy your new to you old american double.

PM sent...

If you mean an Ithaca/Lefever Nitro Special, that's a good inexpensive one. I suggest the A Grade model. The real Lefevers are ALL antiques. Great guns, but if you break it you'll probably have to buy another one..Geo

Geo, so the lefever would be more difficult to find parts / repair .

NCA225, I found a Sterlingworth in Canada. Anyone have experience with having one shipped into the US? How complicated is it to have one imported to your FFL?

Thanks guys for the great insight. This is what I was looking for.
Eddie.

No-Joe- that was the Ithaca Flues designs-- But the best double for the $ today is a Ithaca NID- I bought one (Grade 2E 12-30" DT from Brad Bachelder 6 years ago-love it-foolproof- Brad told me the action, frame,trigger(s) were of the same quality as a M21- and I do own a M21 as well. I'd stay away from Parkers, L.C. Smiths, but the Ithaca made Lefever box locks are good guns. Double triggers and std extractors are also best for your entry level double- and make sure the stock dims fit your size. RWTF

Ed, a reloader and a Sterlingworth: you're in like Flynn.

well, thanks king...nice to hear from you...hoping you will contenya...your entertaining wisdom, experience and style is missed here...

Can't help you there as I never had one imported. There are others here on the board who have so hopefully they will chime in on their experience.

I don't think King was referring to you ed, but those are kind words anyways.

No, it was not. jOe has a good memory, and there were several photos posted of Fox frames that had cracked. Drew may or may not have the files at this late date.

The Foxes in question may or may not have had restoration work, such as re-case coloring, done to them. The questions were never answered in a satisfactory manner. We had yelling, back and forth, but, the pictures were all we really had, and I seem to think it was four or five different guns.

The cracked frame sub gauge Flues guns are fairly well documented, along with the reasons.

We never got to that point with the Foxes.

Best,
Ted

Ball park $300 plus 3-5 months to get it imported. Don't bother. I've done it numerous times on higher value guns.

But I would agree on the Fox Sterlingworth 12 ga. My second choice would be a Remington 1894 (or 1900). Classic A & D boxlock. On average the cheapest of the big American makers.

225, jes sos you knows, ah have not given up on youse...still waitin fur duh day youse will post positively here mostly, on dis here fine doublegun forum... or mebbee not ah tawl...

Ed look above. All I did was correct your misunderstaning. If you wish to find that insulting thats your choice.

Rare Flues cracked frame, and mostly the small gauges. This is a 12



Exceedingly rare cracked Sterlingworth, which I agree would be an excellent choice for a vintage double. The market is loaded with them, and none are damascus barreled



Ithaca NIDs are solid guns and bargains

ANY vintage double will require a careful evaluation by a double gun specialist; with the interest, expertise and equipment (bore scope and wall thickness gauge) to do the job. Many will require repair of hidden cracks at the head of the stock. Some will have 3" DAH.

So it's okay if someone corrects your misunderstanding?



Pressure (chamber) has nothing to do with how well old wood holds up to shooting. That is determined by recoil, which is not determined by shell pressure. Excessive chamber pressure stresses the action, affecting the barrel/action relationship.

As you said, if you wish to find that insulting that's your choice. No insult intended.

SRH

Hello Fishsticker and welcome!
I think a good choice for an entry level double gun is the Ithaca Nitro Special. (often advertised as the Ithaca Lefever Nitro Special. The use of the Lefever name can be confused with the pre 1916 Syracuse Lefever-totally different animals) The Nitro is a simple basic gun-very reliable, comes in all the popular gauges, etc AND is quite inexpensive. By that I mean a solid 12 ga, 28 or more likely 30 inch barrels-selling in the neighborhood of 3 to 4 hundred dollars. Not much downside risk. The Nitro is also a "modern" gun in that it can handle current ammo and not plagued with frame cracking, etc.
Good luck on your choice.

Not insulted at all Stan, but appreciative of the information. In past discussions it was generally thought that low pressure loads were best for older doubles. I had thought that one reason for that was that they were gentler on the old stocks. I guess low pressure doesn't necessarily mean low recoil.

The ever popular suggestion for a first double hasn't been made yet, so I will. An Ithaca/SKB. Not exactly vintage or American, but dependable, quality doubles, they are. Depending on chokes you could shoot steel (in my opinion) as well. Certainly within your budget.

Canvasback, thanks for that info sir. Not worth it for sure on a low end gun. I have been a Remington fan for a long time. I have many Remington rifles and a few 1100 LT and LW 20's. My youngest rifle was born in 2001. I feel like the quality, as with several manufactures, is lacking in recent history. And for some reason I don't find the 1900 Remingtons very attractive. I have looked at several. A friend of mine has one that he will never part with.

On a side note I did not realize until a few weeks ago that Remington filed for bankruptcy again and is actually being parted out by the courts. Damn shame.

Walter thanks for the clarification on the Ithaca / Lefever I will give them a look also.

Fishsticker, bear in mind that some of the older guns, such as early Sterlys, can have considerable drop in the stock compared with later guns. Some folks have trouble adjusting to the drop. Gil

GLS, yes I have been trying to make sure that the measurements when given are reasonably close to what I think I can deal with. I can usually adjust my style to work with most shotguns for wing shooting.

Thanks Ted....

That might work for most things but not too well for wing shooting.

Flues Model Ithaca frames cracked in all gauges.











As far as entering the American made side-by-side market, you might be better off with a new gun such as the CSMC RBL. Cryogenically treated barrels with tuf-coat bores, 12- and 20-gauge come with choke tubes, don't have to worry about what you shoot in them.





Choice of straight or capped pistol grip, slim or beavertail forearm, double or single selective trigger and grades of wood.

Well, I have a pile of Fox and a few Ithaca's in my various watch list. Not bidding or buying anything yet but after I drink a few this evening that could change .

Thank you guys again for all the info.

Eddie.

Quite the cool history Researcher. What a neat exchange between Ithaca and the Owner and thank you for sharing that. Was a different era when we had to write letters. Maybe a better time. I have too many guns according to my wife and I guess it's hard to argue with her when you start approaching triple digits. I have enough modern guns to beat around with. Like most of you guys I just always loved the look, feel, and idea of a vintage double and now I'm going to buy one to put in the safe to keep my Remington model 10, Winchester 1873, Remington Model 14, Colt Single Action Army, Remington model 341...and all the other junk I have bought over the years company on the "old gun side".

Interesting that Researcher's first letter dates to October, 1932.
The 3 1/2" Magnum-Ten Super X shell with 2 oz. of shot appeared in the April 1, 1932 Western Ammunition booklet.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=304065

I wonder if Mr. Biggs slipped the new Western load in his Flues 2 7/8" chamber 10g?

Good catch detective Drew:). The plot thickens. Quite possible.

Well to remember, Drewbie- that the Flues doubles came out prox. 1905 when black powder loads were the norm- using the later smokeless powder loads proved to be the downfall of the Fluesies--My 2E 12 bore was made aprox. 1929- still flawless in action, and easy to open and recock, whether the ejectors are tripped or not. So is my 1933 era Fox-Savage Sterly, 20 ga DT AE 28'. I love Smiths, but so many have had cracked buttstocks in the lock and tang areas, I would tread with caution on any sidelock- box locks seem to be much stronger in some regards- RWTF

Bulk Smokeless loads were in general use by 1895; from the UMC catalog



The Overland Monthly, Oct. 1895 “Smokeless Powder For Shotguns”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA442&lpg

re the flues guns...they come in two varieties...the light weight, superbly balanced pre ww1 era guns...and the later, heavier, not so well balanced post war made guns...later guns have heavier frames and barrels...they are easily identified by the additional screw at the bottom of the forend...all are great shooters with appropriate loads...

re the nitro special...best deal going in a reliable, american made classic sxs hunting gun...they have two receiver profiles...the pre 1935 look and the later a grade look...

only issue, is fragile firing pins...when dry fired without snap caps, they may break...a special tool is required for replacement...otherwise, great guns...

re the flues guns...they come in two varieties...the light weight, superbly balanced pre ww1 era guns...and the later, heavier, not so well balanced post war era guns...later guns have heavier frames and barrels...they are easily identified by the additional screw at the bottom of the forend...all are great shooters with appropriate loads...

i will add to the folks who have suggested that you consider an NID Ithaca (the post 1925 guns). they are vintage, but quite strong and able to handle modern ammunition (within reason). 12 gauges were the main portion of production, and they are both more plentiful on todays market, and likely the most reasonably priced of any of the classic american doubles. the vast majority will be modified & full chokes with either 28 or 30" barrels, and weights in the range of 7.25 to 7.75 pounds. Ithaca is unusual in that they marked their guns for chokes using a 0-1-2-3-4 system - with 0 being cylinder bored through 4 being full choked. those markings will be found on the barrel flats nearest the choke.

let us know when you decide what to do....

best regards,
tom

As far as stock cracking, they all crack, it's just easier to see on an LC. Unless you adapt easily to odd stock dimensions, make sure they fit you. Remington double were only made until 1910 and they all have lots of drop. The LC, Fox and Ithaca NID all use a rotary locking bolt. Good examples of all makes can be found and 12's are a drug on the market now. Have fun!

What this guy said. An implement, cheap to buy and use, excellent to discover if this a path you want to go down.

Best,
Ted

re the nid...wonderful guns...like other ithacas, come in two varieties...early guns with cocking indicators and post 1935 guns, without cocking indicators...

That is the same old tired picture of a Sterlingworth cracked through the hammer axle that's been posted here multiple times.

I've been reading this board since 2001, and I believe it's the only photo. It's been posted so many times the impression is that this is some kind of endemic problem.

It's not.

There may have been others, but such a failure is uncommon.

and then there is the whole parker thing...so many varieties, you need to read at least one book...

https://www.amazon.com/Parker-Guns-Old-R...ooks&sr=1-1

it would be hard to beat a trojan or vh, for your purposes...

Yep- mine is the first series NID- with the "snail titty" cocking indicators- no biggie-- RWTF

SMAW weld- 3/32' dia 6013 as judged by the bead shape- NOT 6011 that's for sure- looks like a big old pimple on Brittany Spears' cheek- Butt ugly-- RWTF

Out of curiosity can a Stirlingworth be fitted with that sexy forend of the A Grade and other higher grade guns? I'm referring to the splinter forends with the visible bottom metal for the removal of the forend. I found a nice stirlingworth with a missing forend for cheap cheap.

not a good idea...different latching system...

here is possible source for sw forends...

https://www.ahfoxparts.com/

save your graded forend for a graded gun. what is serial number...

ebay often has fox parts for sale...

Are we correct to say for the non-ejector guns, like most Fox Sterlingworth’s, there’s nothing wrong with a snap on forearm (e.g., Hackett forearm), it’s plenty secure? Ejector guns, however, need a bit more security like a Deeley latch mechanism.

Usually, not a problem. Until you hook a branch going through the woods... then it would be a big problem.

An Anson latch could do that too. I had one come off shooting skeet, so stuff does happen. One of our local shooters here lost a lock plate in the woods off an AyA #1. Never found it, and it took years to have one made and the gun took not one but two trips to Spain before they got it semi-right.

No reason to pass up a nice example Sterlingworth. This was an economy model Fox.

Fishsticker. Check your PMs.

I could be wrong but IIRC, McIntosh thought the snap on was better.

I think you can find a 12 gauge fox A grade gun in really good shape for 1500.00 ( not AE)if you keep looking for 3 or 4 months. I have seen several in last 6 months. Watch gunbroker and Crosno guns on guns international he has some great deals on good guns often. 26” 12s are really inexpensive but make sure they haven’t been cut. Good luck!

FS, I’d say, if you’re not in a big hurry don’t get in a big hurry. You’re in the fun zone right now and with your budget you’re going to be able to seriously look at some nice doubles of the types being recommended here.

I can’t personally comment on the Foxes and the Elsies but as for the NID and the NS (Nitro Special) they are exceptional for the money.

Ref: Ed’s comment on the pre WW1 Flues, definitely. They’re out there and as I get older and less able to walk miles, I find myself reaching more and more often for my pre WW1 16 ga Flues. The balance and the weight (5lbs 6 ozs) make it a winner, but, true, it won’t handle the heavy loads.

And Ed, I love my NS (primarily for function not form) and would also recommend them to any one but I see them as 3 generations or variations rather than 2.
The long frame ‘21-‘26+/-, the short frame (reduced .39”) from ‘26-‘36 and the A frame from ‘36-‘47.

Fishsticker, we’ll be waiting to hear your choice and see photos. Enjoy the hunt.
(And tell us, are you a gigger or a bow fisherman?j

neva noticed the long an short frame thang...

buzz, Fox's snap-on forend was/is plenty secure for ejector guns. Many Sterlingworth ejectors were made with this style forend. I have two myself, and they never have given any sort of problem. They snap on entirely too securely for a twig to disengage the mechanism.

SRH

The very earliest Sterlingworths used the Baker J-spring latch which has been perfectly satisfactory on hundreds of thousands of guns, but for some reason the A.H. Fox Gun Co. (The Sterlingworth Co.) didn't get it right. Both the A.H. Fox Gun Co.'s J.C. Kremer & A.H. Fox latch used for a while on extractor guns until Parker Bros. started using it on their Trojan, and the AHFGCo.'s F.T. Russell latch used on ejector guns early on and both ejector and extractor guns to the end was perfectly satisfactory. In the later Savage years they did use a Deeley latch on a very few 12-gauge Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Skeet & Upland Game Guns when ordered with a beavertail forearm.

I have no idea what a Hackett forearm is?

Hackett forend fastener patent. #964 of 1878, A mechanism using a roller to snap the forearm to the barrels granted to George Hackett. English.

I like Parkers, always have. But the Sterly is probably the right choice here. I would look for a Sterly pin gun to satisfy both sides of my preference. For the OP, the pin guns used an exposed and recessed hinge pin that strongly resembled the Parker style. My recollection is that Parker sued Fox because of the similarity, and Fox then changed the design. Researcher will know the details. FWIW, a respected dealer in old doubles (Ivory Beads, now closed) once told me that they considered the Sterly the best choice for a vintage duck gun. Attractive, strong and OK for moderate steel loads with shot cups and somewhat open chokes. My Sterly had a lot of drop and is the only gun I have ever sent out for stock bending. A nationally known and highly respected gunsmith blew the stock apart at the top tang. Be careful.

An alternative that has not been mentioned would be a Parker Repro. Sort of American vintage, but with modern materials. Could possibly find a decent 12 for $1500.

We should throw in two other entry level doubleguns that are worth there value in the field. Ithaca's Western Arms, Long Range Gun and Hunter Arms' Fulton boxlocks, Especially the Hunter Special which also has the rotary bolt lock-up. Nice examples of these can be readily found and are good to go with modern ammo.

I sometimes tease ed good for the things he says on here, but the OP might want to take a good look at the Nitro Special ed has in the For Sale section <https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=579536#Post579536>

Looks like a good gun in a little too rough condition for what he's asking, but it appears he's soliciting offers now...Geo

If OP is going to have only one double (for now), I'd hate to see him buy a Nitro Special at any price. They are serviceable, but ugly. Get something with a little bit of style. Remember, it's not how well you shoot, it's how you look doing it.

re, agreed, the early nitros may have a less than pleasing frame profile, as expressed by some here an elsewhere...sorta like the parker trojan, which some also dislike for its frame profile...some like their frame profiles similar, others like erm different...diff folks, diff strokes, ah always say...

anyhow, this aint one of those...

this, is in fact, an early ww2 era nitro special with the very pleasing and modern looking lefever a grade type frame profile...

an george, you say this gun is rough for the price...what is rough about it? wood an barrels are about 95% original, with lots of case colors left... not perfect, but if it were, one should be suspicious of a visit by the dreaded refinisher...

it saddens me to see so many fine pre war hunting guns ruined by refinish work...if it aint perfect, leave it alone... needer are you...and, old guns are becoming like old furniture...the more original the finish, the more they are valued for their originality...

i sometimes think the proper punishment for refinishing classic guns should be...well, painful, but not maiming...

Here! Here!

No time for an ugly gun.

an of course, beauty is in the eye ov the beholder...

as in, "behold, a late 16 gauge nitro special with the very aesthetically pleasing a grade frame profile...in wonderful all original condition"...or not...

I agree with BrentD. One has far too little time and far too few opportunities to enjoy a day afield these days; so choose a quality gun with great lines and nicely figured wood as you'll spend many times more hours holding and "looking at" your gun than you'll ever spend actually shooting the piece. There's just something special about the personal satisfaction one derives from hunting with, and bagging one's game with a quality double gun.

for eddie's benefit, tell us what is your favorite american field gun? and lets keep it to those valued at say, less than two grand these days...

mine of course, is a 16 gauge ithaca, weighing in just under six pounds...

OP wants a 12. Ed's is a 16. End of that discussion. Please move along.

wait ah minute here sleepy joe...not so fast... why end this discussion?...this thread has evolved into much more than what eddie wants...besides, as we share more knowledge here, eddie may decide like many of us, he needs more than just one doublegun for his purposes...like maybe, three or four or a dozen or so...can neva have too many double gons...can neva know too much about doubleguns...

methinks ed sees fresh blood on the water and is looking for dinner.

nah, already had dinner an digestin now...

ah little snack, now dat would be nice before new years...

Wonder what happened to the original forend.

often times guns are stored without forend attached, in order to discourage theft or prohibit use...

My advise. Go with a real Syracuse Lefever. They rarely have issues and are my all time favorites. Especially the 16 ga. on the XX frame. I have owned all of the American classics and in my opinion are at the top of this list in engineering and grace. Took my GE 12ga out yesterday and today for some pen raised pheasants and it never cease to impress me.
Good luck and enjoy the hunt!

You guys been busy since I poured a glass yesterday evening! Really, thank all you guys for the input and discussion It is helpful and entertaining. I didn't have much time to mess around looking at old guns at work today but I keep thinking about the A Grade Fox and a few parkers that are out of my price range. Nothing wrong with the Sterlingworth or the field grade Ithaca's but damn that little bit of engraving and style that they added to the A Grade Fox is hard for me to forget.

And thank all of you who took the time to PM me links to guns. I have added several to my watch.

The type of mission this old girl will be running

I love this gun, but it has too little drop and is too heavy for your use. Just saying.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101494230
JR

Now that is a fine Remington. I did want to ask what is the consensus on reaming a full/full gun to open up one of the chokes? Never do it or is it ok on the post damascus barrels provided the barrel wall is thick enough? And what is the cost to have it done by a good smith?

It's perfectly fine to modify chokes to suit. Usually in the neighborhood of $100 per hole.
JR

Thanks John, I see your from my neck of the woods. Any smiths around here that you would recommend?

NID!

yankees will do hit fur $50 ah barrel...

rob, nid are wonderful gons...don have one at the moment, so fox is the right gun fur eddie...

You know good eats. Squirrels beat anything you can shoot anywhere.

Squirrel season is on here, but I don't start in earnest until later in the season.

Most underrated table fare on the planet. Salt, black pepper, red pepper and a skillet with a little hog lard. I’m glad more people can’t seem to wrap their head around eating a tree rat

I grill'em with a little marinade, but pan fried and gravy is pretty spectacular too. Beats all the feathered dinosaurs we chase endlessly.

limb bacon....

your 410 looks like a 311...why not get a 311 in a 12 bore?

It is a 311. Dad bought it for me when I was 6. It has killed truck loads of squirrels, rabbits and wood ducks and it will never be for sale. But that is only due to the sentimental value. I really find 311's unappealing to say the least. Now the early Savage Model 24's in 22/410 I think are sexy for some reason. And a perfect choice for chasing squirrels.

One of the very best is in Alexandria, James Flynn. Not cheap, but very, very good.
JR

eddie: re early Savage Model 24's in 22/410 ...

got one of them, on the way, as well...

see your pm's for details...

Quit advertising, Ed. Good grief...
JR

I have a 12ga Flues with a cracked frame that I had repaired. In all fairness, the gun doubled with the old high brass Green Remington paper Express shells. I was about 14 year old. Perhaps I had 2 fingers in the triggers. A broken recoil spring was found when it was inspected. The recoil was so heavy that I was briefly disoriented and thought it had exploded. When I say doubled, both barrels discharged at the same time, not one after the other.

I shoot it occasionally now with 7/8oz low pressure handloads without issues.

Bill

We have a few people here who advertise their businesses in every post they make.

Between all of ed's trolling, anti-gun posts, posts defending fake acetylene torch coloring, writing like an illiterate sharecropper, etc., etc., he needs all the help he can get.

Rotflmao...
JR

Have any of the reloaders here tried the spreader wad inserts from Ballistic Products? If so how were the results? Did it open up the pattern?. I have never tried them because I assumed they would make for a nasty pattern full of holes. Planning ahead in case a full/full choked double shows up.

I prefer the Polywad Spreader. Resembles a plastic thumbtack with the shaft entering the shot column and the disk serving as disruptor and overshot card. However, for example, if one loads 6/8 oz. with the device installed over the shot and 1/8 oz. on top of the disk then secured with an OSC, the pattern appears to be better. Gil

Thanks GLS. Since I have no vintage 2-1/2 hulls I’m going to cut some AA’s down to 2.5”. Finished loaded round will be about 2-1/4 with a roll crimp. Can make some 7500 psi loads with several different powders I have.

now keith, you an i reached a truce, least ah thought so...

but now i see you are up to your old tricks...i mean listin here in this thread, my past sins, both real an imaginary...

now, in the spirit of solidary, ah will let hit go dis time...

but, jes remember, two can play the character assassination game, that you sometimes practice here wid such ineptness here on this fine doublegun forum...

Well……….my search for a fine Fox shooter appears to have ended sooner than anticipated. I have a beautiful to me Fox BE Grade headed to my FFL thanks to a member here. The seller was kind enough to offer a few days to inspect. After looking at pictures and speaking to him a few times I am sure that his description is accurate, my impression is the seller is a good trustworthy person.
After inspection, if everything is as I expect it to be I will post a follow up. Again I appreciate all of the discussion here. I hope that I can contribute and help someone in the future. I will admit when I’m not in need of information myself I don’t spend much time online. I typically go months without visiting forums like this. So if you message me and I take a long time to respond this is my apology in advance.

Off to the reloading room!

Mr. Fishsticker, you really upped the ante jumping to a B grade instead of the Sterly or Nitro guns we've been discussing. Good for you! Lots of good information in this thread though for when you start needing another good American double...Geo

Yea I couldn’t help myself. I think it’s a fair price and only a few hundred more
Than what I was looking at.

That everything has its place and orderliness in your reloading room is symptomatic of a sick mind. Gil

Geo.is right.You are getting a beautiful gun, IMO. B grades were discontinued in about 1918-1919. One of my favorites is my 32" BE 12 ga.

Congratulations, you done good. If you keep it please post pics.

SRH

Even a window to shoot out of!

B grades....my favorite.

A member here, CJO, restocked one about 8 years ago and made some very subtle adjustments to the rest of the gun. Barely noticeable. But together with the new wood, he turned it into the most beautiful gun I have ever seen. and with 32" tightly choked barrels, it's the whole package.

Very good choice Fishsticker.

I do love my shooting window. Load development in climate controlled comfort. I trimmed some AA shells to 2.5".... 1 oz load with green dot should be around 7800 psi. I have never played with the short 12 gauge shells before so this is what I'll start with.

I do like a tidy work space.:)

Need to leave ears outside the room when shooting out the window. Gil

Plugs and good muffs when not suppressed is what I do. Most shooting is suppressed.

Played with rolling a few trimmed shells. I need to reduce my column height to make a more consistent looking roll.....or buy some new hulls.

It's hard to roll fired shells perfectly. I don't trim them, I adjust them up to fit in 2.75" hull.

I was thinking I needed to cut the overall fired length of the hull to 2.5” to shoot in these old doubles. For a fox from 1912 I figured the chamber was shorted than 2-3/4”.

Yes, many are 2.5". All of my current guns are 2.75", I should have said so. Some people cut 2.75" shells even if they will be shot in 2.75" chamber, when they roll crimp.

I should have added, that I don't know when 2.75" became common in America, but I have English and other guns from turn of the century that have 2.75" original chambers.

I think you’re going to find that the chamber, if unaltered, is 2 5/8”, not 2 1/2”. And Parker, along with LC Smith, and I’m sure others continued to cut this length chamber long after 2 3/4” hulls became standard. They wanted the hull to open part way inside the forcing cone, believing that a hull mouth inside the cone provided a better gas seal. Makes sense. I do know that Parker’s hang tag that came with a new gun said, “chamber 2 5/8”, use 2 3/4” ammunition”. Most of my guns have short chambers and I never cut the hulls, they’re all 2 3/4” and I’ve never had a problem.

I see from the photo of your reloading room you’re a rifle reloader and that does require a high degree of precision in case length, etc. but shotguns are totally different animals. Such precision is not necessary. But the combination of primer, powder, and shot charge are critical. Not hull length.

Enjoy your new gun, sounds nice!

Harbor Freight makes a mini-chop saw which in combination with a jig made by an Ebay seller is perfect for trimming hulls quickly, neatly and with precision. The jig clamps into the saw's adjustable jaws. I use one to trim 12 ga. hulls into 2" length. The Ebay seller will make the plastic jig to any length desired.
Here's the jig for .45 ACP, but if he is contacted, he'll make the jig for shotgun shells at the same price.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-45-Shot-Shell-Trimming-Jig-2-Chop-Saw-Safe-Scratchless-308-243-260-Brass/264391246256?hash=item3d8ef241b0:g:x~YAAOSwWHBdIo-H

Gil

Thanks for that info guys, I’n my research thus far my interpretation was that a shell unrolling or unfolding into the forcing cone would result in higher pressures. And for a vintage Fox with the fluid steel barrels I don’t know what is still considered safe. If shooting conventional 3/4” fold crimp 1oz load combinations that Lyman says are 7800 psi is ok I would much prefer a few less steps.

The A.H. Fox Co., as did the other turn-of-the-century double gun makers told us exactly the loads recommended for their guns; this is from the 1914 Fox catalog courtesy of Researcher



Note the Fox 12g 2 5/8" chamber was intended for 2 3/4" roll-crimped shells.
The pressure of period 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr.Eq. (1200 fps) loads with Bulk Smokeless (DuPont, "E.C.", and "Schultze") was 7000 - 8000 psi; with Dense Smokeless ("Ballistite" and "Infallible") 8500 - 10,000 psi (similar to today's loads)

Use of loads with similar ballistics of course assumes the absence of barrel defects (requiring a bore scope) and adequate wall thickness (requiring a wall thickness gauge and the ability to accurately use it).
That is not to say the head of the stock wood might not benefit from lower recoil loads.

And BTW from the 1884 hammer gun and 1886 hammerless, the L.C. Smith 12g chambers were cut 2 3/4".

"And BTW from the 1884 hammer gun and 1886 hammerless, the L.C. Smith 12g chambers were cut 2 3/4".

As did other makers. Some of which were 12-bores by the Syracuse Arms Co, Baltimore Arms Co, and the Hollenbeck Gun Co to include the Three Barrel Gun and Royal Gun Co versions, unless special ordered otherwise of course.

Thanks Drew. While possible, it seems unlikely to me that anyone would have ordered a Fox with a special "short chamber". Assuming the deal goes thru I may breakout the cerrosafe and do a chamber cast of both to compare. I may go ahead and do my Remington model 10 also.

There is an easy way to measure chamber length using a 3" x 5" index card, rolled lengthwise, and slid into the chamber. It will partially unroll and expand to the chamber diameter. Gently advance the card until it stops at the end of the chamber (where the forcing cone constriction starts), use a pencil to mark the card at the breech end of the barrel, and repeat the steps to see if it always comes to same spot. Then use a ruler to measure the length marked on the card.
The chamber must be clean, and it works best with a new 3” X 5” card.

But this works too; Cerrosafe chamber and forcing cone casting courtesy of Marcus Merritt

I may have a Starrett bore gauge in the correct range also. Or I can turn down an aluminum rod on the Lathe and check the depth that way. Thanks for getting to think a bit. I was just looking for an excuse to breakout the torch I guess.

Well Drew....you inspired me. Behold the Truth stick...aka the Drew Stick.

It's trunned to an OD of 0.795. I pulled out the vintage Remington model 10 from somewhere about 1910 (early serial number gun) Rim sits above chamber end of barrel. so I measured and added 0.060" (average rim thickness of some shells I measured). Total chamber depth is 2.770" I was surprised to say the least.

The Drew stick inserted

Patented marking device applied to said Drew Stick

Measurements of Old Paper Super X and a new Super X shell.

Show off
Here 'ya go
David Williamson has machined a complete set of chamber length gauges and might contribute his dimensions



The entrance to the chambers of c. 1900 12g U.S. doubles is usually .809” -.812”, tapering to .795” - .798”.

A 1908 Remington Repeating Shotgun (pre-Model 10) catalog page; "chambered for 2 3/4" shells"

Gun made it. It’s as described by the seller. Looks like all original metal with a stock repair and Re-finish on the wood. Nice and tight.

Measured the chamber length on this 1912 FOX BE. What do you guys think they measure?

Chokes measured .680 and .685 at the muzzle.
Chamber length is actually 2-3/4”

You got a good one...Geo

Looks great! Christmas came a little early.

I have these in 12, 16 & 20....

Brownells Gauges...

12ga - 0.797"
16ga - 0.729"
20ga.- 0.686"

Hope you guys have made it thru all this crazy corona crap. I have not been on the forum in a while. Looks like my son is going to graduate LSU with straight A's in Civil Engineering and to brag a little more he graduated high school with out ever making a B since first grade. I'm proud to say the least. He also fell in love with my Fox BE that I purchased from a member here in 2020. He shot 22 out of 25 clays with it the first time he picked it up. So.......I am looking for another nice Fox as a gift for him. He won't graduate till May 2023 so I have some time. Looking for the early style engraving A grade or higher. More modern stock dimensions preferred, 12 gauge, good shooting condition as it will be hunted with. He is just as likely to choose my current BE Grade so this gun could easily become mine. Full and light modified would be my chokes of of choice if I had a choice......but super extra full and super extra full is what I have and not much lives to tell about their encounter with the old Fox. I am actively searching on all the common gun forums but last time I had the best experience dealing with you guys and would love to buy from a member here.

Thanks
Eddie.

suggest you contact these guys...

https://www.vfiguns.com/