doublegunshop.com - home
https://connecticutshotgun.co/winchester..._eid=3bf4469961

Does anyone, anywhere, ever believe this is/was a $35,000 shotgun? I certainly don't. I don't even think it's a $20,000 shotgun. Thoughts from the roundtable...
JR
I think all of this stuff may be about to implode. Deservedly so, imo.
JR
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
https://connecticutshotgun.co/winchester..._eid=3bf4469961

Does anyone, anywhere, ever believe this is/was a $35,000 shotgun? I certainly don't. I don't even think it's a $20,000 shotgun. Thoughts from the roundtable...
JR


No.

Best,
Ted
Truthfully, if it weren’t for the fact that I could sell it for more, I wouldn’t spend $2K for than gun, never mind $20K.
A 7 lb. 6 oz. 410 is a placement gun as far as hunting goes, not one to be toted afield all day. With skeet chokes, what's it good for but a round of skeet?
JR
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 02:34 AM
If that gun “letters” with Cody and is indeed a Winchester built and engraved .410, it’s well worth $20k as a collector, really a lot more, imho. I’m guessing no letter. I’d definitely check with Cody before jumping in...
Nice gun, great condition, 28" barrels, desirable chokes for a collector or skeet shooter, Custom Shop. Probably a rare gun, but a lot of things are rare because they didn't sell well when new. This is one of those things. Aimed at a niche market, and that nice is getting smaller every year. Might have once had a $35K asking price at CSMC, but they overprice just about everything so that they can mark it down if they don't get a sucker...er, investor. I'd bet that gun never sold to anyone for $35K, so it is not, by definition, a $35K gun.
Originally Posted By: buzz
If that gun “letters” with Cody and is indeed a Winchester built and engraved .410, it’s well worth $20k as a collector, really a lot more, imho. I’m guessing no letter. I’d definitely check with Cody before jumping in...

Respectfully disagree, Buzz. The Globalists's Reset via Wuhan virus has gotten it's way with fine guns, among many other collectable items, and has changed "collectors" mindsets bigtime. Cody letter or whoever's letter regarding whatever gun won't make much difference now. Going forward, I seriously doubt the fine gun market will be what it once was. I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

JR
LOL: Glorified Rizzini-
https://connecticutshotgun.co/inverness-..._eid=3bf4469961

versus-
The real thing:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101555448

Looks like you do get a long tang for another $2000...or not:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101462132

JR
Posted By: SKB Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 10:31 AM
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
Originally Posted By: buzz
If that gun “letters” with Cody and is indeed a Winchester built and engraved .410, it’s well worth $20k as a collector, really a lot more, imho. I’m guessing no letter. I’d definitely check with Cody before jumping in...

Respectfully disagree, Buzz. The Globalists's Reset via Wuhan virus has gotten it's way with fine guns, among many other collectable items, and has changed "collectors" mindsets bigtime. Cody letter or whoever's letter regarding whatever gun won't make much difference now. Going forward, I seriously doubt the fine gun market will be what it once was. I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

JR


This has not been my experience during the Covid crisis, business has been brisk. I am optimistic myself.
Originally Posted By: SKB
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
Originally Posted By: buzz
If that gun “letters” with Cody and is indeed a Winchester built and engraved .410, it’s well worth $20k as a collector, really a lot more, imho. I’m guessing no letter. I’d definitely check with Cody before jumping in...

Respectfully disagree, Buzz. The Globalists's Reset via Wuhan virus has gotten it's way with fine guns, among many other collectable items, and has changed "collectors" mindsets bigtime. Cody letter or whoever's letter regarding whatever gun won't make much difference now. Going forward, I seriously doubt the fine gun market will be what it once was. I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

JR


This has not been my experience during the Covid crisis, business has been brisk. I am optimistic myself.


How many $35,000 guns have you sold?

How many $20,000 guns?


Best,
Ted
Or, more importantly, bought?
JR
Posted By: BrentD Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 03:30 PM
I guess John and Ted have the pulse of the market, being big players in it, eh?
I've been through about 200 fine doubles in the past 40 years, Brent. Superposeds of all persuasions, Parkers, Foxes, Smiths, some English stuff here and there. All from roughly $2,000 to to the mid teens$. Through my close relationship with Steve Barnett, I've been privileged to keep up with some pretty fantastic stuff for the past 10-15 years.

But I'm sure your conspicuous consumption is far more worthy of judgment on the market than my pittance of experience.
JR
Originally Posted By: BrentD
I guess John and Ted have the pulse of the market, being big players in it, eh?


The last big dollar gun I sold as an importer was $10K. It was a very nice gun, but, I didn’t buy it. It wasn’t very many years later, that the same gun was $30K, and I knew then that I was seeing a self fulfilling prophecy.

You can’t buy that gun, today. You will never be able to buy it, new, again.

So it goes. John has astutely noted the same thing, in a bit different, but, related market.

I was never a big player in the market, true enough, but what I know about it came from honest work in the market, and not from an internet bulletin board I was reading, while I was in Iowa.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: SKB Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 04:29 PM
Two over 20k in the last six months and one currently being negotiated in the 35k range. About as much as my inventory allows.
Originally Posted By: SKB
Two over 20k in the last six months and one currently being negotiated in the 35k range. About as much as my inventory allows.


Details on these please, if you don't mind Steve. Not judging, just asking. Thanks.
JR
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
A 7 lb. 6 oz. 410 is a placement gun as far as hunting goes, not one to be toted afield all day. With skeet chokes, what's it good for but a round of skeet?
JR


I had a friend that had 2 two barrel set CSMC 21s, one in 410 and the other in 28 ga. Both were in the mid 7lb range. He successfully hunted upland prolifically with both. If a man can carry a 12ga in the same weight, he can carry a 410 as well. But it isn't my choice for a hunting gun.
Posted By: SKB Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 06:16 PM
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
Originally Posted By: SKB
Two over 20k in the last six months and one currently being negotiated in the 35k range. About as much as my inventory allows.


Details on these please, if you don't mind Steve. Not judging, just asking. Thanks.
JR


Both were listed here but sold on another forum. Piotti Boss pattern over under pigeon gun and Alex Henry 10 bore rifle. In negotiations on a Holland double rifle. Good guns bring real money in my experience.
I've got a really nice photo of Judy and I with Steve from three years ago. I was holding this gun:
https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/purdey-...-12-gauge-gauge

I toyed with the idea of trying to work a deal on it, but I regained my senses. It's still there @ $53,500...
JR
(hopefully Stan will post the photo later today.Thanks Stan)
Posted By: SKB Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 06:29 PM
That is a very nice Purdey but in a configuration that is not in high demand. Far too much money in my opinion.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 07:03 PM
In my opinion that gun only has great value if it was made by Winchester and engraved by Winchester, thus rendering it a rare collectible. Anything else and it’s a toy with no collector value imho. The Model 21’s made by CSMC are not collectible in the true sense of the word, at least not to me. Oddly, it was not mentioned in the ad whether the gun ‘letters’ as an original by the Cody Firearms Museum (who have the Win 21 records).
Originally Posted By: SKB
That is a very nice Purdey but in a configuration that is not in high demand. Far too much money in my opinion.

I handled and pointed it on and off for a couple of hours. I love it, feels great in the hands. The beavertail isn't nearly as obnoxious as it looks in Steve's site's photos. Fits me perfectly.

Where do you see it being correctly/fairly priced, SKB?
JR
Posted By: SKB Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/27/20 11:03 PM
Nice gun but so much to choose from these days. I think that gun will move mid thirties.
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
I've got a really nice photo of Judy and I with Steve from three years ago. I was holding this gun:
https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/purdey-...-12-gauge-gauge

I toyed with the idea of trying to work a deal on it, but I regained my senses. It's still there @ $53,500...
JR
(hopefully Stan will post the photo later today.Thanks Stan)


Here you go, buddy. The beauty, the beast, and Steve. wink

Click on the pic and it should enlarge a bit.



SRH
Thank you, Stan!
JR
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/28/20 03:14 AM
JR; Have you researched the ST Purdey guns? The older ST guns were often times a problem. They had a “3-pull” mechanism, at least that’s what Ken Eversull told me. Cost me a bundle to try to get one right and it never was. Traded her down the road. You may have made a good decision on passing on that gun. I hear the Boss ST mechanisms are good. Anyway, as a general rule, I think one may be better off sticking with double triggers in terms of English guns. Just my opinion, but I learned that through the school of hard knocks.....been there, done that.
Single triggers don’t have to be English to be troublemakers. Although, I had big trouble with a English ST.

Best,
Ted
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Single triggers don’t have to be English to be troublemakers. Best,
Ted


So true, but isn't it great that you can buy a Beretta, or nearly any other well made Italian ST gun, and have a 99+% chance of getting a great one that will last for tens of thousands of cycles without a hint of trouble, for a fraction of the cost of a Purdey?

But then, one wouldn't have a Purdey, would one?

SRH
Posted By: GLS Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/28/20 11:18 AM
I was on a dove field yesterday with a local shooting a Purdey Pigeon gun made in 1906. 30" barrels proofed for 1 1/8 oz. with 2 3/4 chambers. I don't know what was paid as it was a gift from his wife. He was as good a shot as I've seen on a dove field and worthy of the beauty of a shotgun. He kicks himself in the butt for not buying another that someone had bored the chambers to 3". It made the rounds at various auctions that no one would touch until it finally sold for $7800. It would have made a composed pair with his other one. Gil
Originally Posted By: Stan
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Single triggers don’t have to be English to be troublemakers. Best,
Ted


So true, but isn't it great that you can buy a Beretta, or nearly any other well made Italian ST gun, and have a 99+% chance of getting a great one that will last for tens of thousands of cycles without a hint of trouble, for a fraction of the cost of a Purdey?

But then, one wouldn't have a Purdey, would one?

SRH


Could be. I’ve only deliberately purchased one gun that had a single trigger. It went down the road.
The single trigger O/U that my Dad bought was awarded to my son. If I get another O /U someday, it will have double triggers.

Probably won’t be a Purdey.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/28/20 02:19 PM
What then Ted if not a Purdey? A Fabbri, :a Woodward, or Boss or a Holland?
Originally Posted By: buzz
What then Ted if not a Purdey? A Fabbri, :a Woodward, or Boss or a Holland?


Well, Buzz, it would have to be something that looked very good next to a can of domestic beer on the bench in my shop, when I was cleaning it. Perhaps just a bit more deluxe than a Marlin model 90.

But, not much more deluxe.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/28/20 02:34 PM
Fair enough there Ted. I’d go DT O/U Beretta then.... grin
If I am not mistaken, John Milius had his Purdeys built with Fabbri triggers, which seem to work fairly well. I believe the pictured gun belonged to Milius. Correct me if I am incorrect. On another point, dedicated pigeon guns made by Purdey are among the most sought after 12 bore Purdeys out there. Average Purdey 12 bore game guns are very common and sometimes sell for bargain prices. The Purdey market, admittedly, is probably headed for a bit of a correction.
Murph,
Quite plausible that John had Purdeys with Fabbri triggers, as he seemed infatuated with Fabbri guns in the short time I spent with him before his stroke.
If it says winchester it's genuine. A csmc will be advertised as a csmc model 21. As far as the rizzini thing goes, yes they are identical actions, a copy if you will. They aren't the only ones that copy or share actions. I wouldn't spend that much on one of their O/Us, but that's probably not a bad price. They have straight or open PGs in all levels of englishesque ornamentation; more so than the B. Rizzinis and I don't care for round knob or pow grip. I would however spend 2K on an American made o/u and did so with the revelation. The more I handle it the finer I think it is. They have a very nice trigger, eject strongly, and evenly, and pattern well. mine has a fine piece of wood on both the stock and fore end. The model 21 o/u, the inverness, and revelation all share the same action, though mine is not dowelled (they've gone up to 2.4K and for that I might look at something else!). Anyway, when they sell a Winchester, it's a Winchester. The one in question sounds like a good heavy skeet gun and it's got the rib for it. It looks beautiful.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 11/30/20 10:13 PM
Originally Posted By: MrCrockett
If it says winchester it's genuine. A csmc will be advertised as a csmc model 21. As far as the rizzini thing goes, yes they are identical actions, a copy if you will. They aren't the only ones that copy or share actions. I wouldn't spend that much on one of their O/Us, but that's probably not a bad price. They have straight or open PGs in all levels of englishesque ornamentation; more so than the B. Rizzinis and I don't care for round knob or pow grip. I would however spend 2K on an American made o/u and did so with the revelation. The more I handle it the finer I think it is. They have a very nice trigger, eject strongly, and evenly, and pattern well. mine has a fine piece of wood on both the stock and fore end. The model 21 o/u, the inverness, and revelation all share the same action, though mine is not dowelled (they've gone up to 2.4K and for that I might look at something else!). Anyway, when they sell a Winchester, it's a Winchester. The one in question sounds like a good heavy skeet gun and it's got the rib for it. It looks beautiful.
Wrong re Winchester. There are fakes out there. If it doesn’t letter, it’s not real. Also, rumor has it, there are even fake letters too. Just because it says Winchester, doesn’t mean it’s real. Give us a break....we aren’t all that dumb.
[/quote] Wrong re Winchester. There are fakes out there. If it doesn’t letter, it’s not real. Also, rumor has it, there are even fake letters too. Just because it says Winchester, doesn’t mean it’s real. Give us a break....we aren’t all that dumb. [/quote]

Understood. I was only saying that if csmc made it, it won't say winchester in their add. I suppose they should say in their adds whether there is a letter. That would make sense.
DB
The ad clearly states:

Quote:
...marked CUSTOM BUILT BY WINCHESTER on rib,...
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 12/01/20 02:43 PM
That ‘Custom Built’ means nothing without the letter. That’s faked too. Do you have any idea who has the capability to make these things? Go buy it Replacement or MrCrocket. If it’s a real Win it’s a bargain at what they are asking. crazy
Posted By: Nudge Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 12/01/20 03:07 PM
The "related products" scroll beneath the gun in question is eye-popping. 12 gauge, after 12 gauge, after 12 gauge...$7,000. I'm flabbergasted.

My personal opinion is that the party for doubles isn't ending...it already ended. Will there always be a market for mid-grade and up guns with condition? Or sub-gauges? Of course. But I continue to be amazed at the number of guns out there that are not unique, rare, or difficult to find...that are priced as they are.

12 gauge Parker VH's are like the stars, they made 25k of that very SAME gun...yet the market can support $2,500-$3,500 on these things?

It's the low end that is going to get utterly devastated, because the low grade guns seem the most over-valued relative to their rarity. My guess is this is driven by people who want to own a name, but can't afford to pay beyond a certain point. So they chase lower grade guns so they can say that they own one (VH Parker/Sterlingworth/Fox A).

They're good guns, that's not at issue. It's...at what price? I just think over-paying for a Cadillac Cimarron just to say you "bought a Cadillac" will not ultimately hold up in a world where very few gents under the age of 40 cares about these guns. I absolutely understand over-paying for a condition DHE 16 gauge because you really want one, that's a different story.

Not sure what prompted me to say all this...din't do it to start a fire, just food for thought on 'not rare' low grade doubles. Sort of off topic from the OP though, I hate to admit to being a "thread jacker." *S*

NDG
I can't imagine anyone here buying that gun after the trashing it has taken on this thread. I, like Buzz, personally think it is a great gun at that price, and would consider it if it had some choke and maybe about three fewer gold inlays. And, good grief, Charlie Brown, a recoil pad on a 7 1/2 pound .410? Oh, well.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 12/01/20 03:44 PM
Eightbore, a long dead friend use to say “pimps need guns too”. Perhaps he was thinking about this gun. Gold inlays do little for me and the cheap ones Browning use to put on their guns and the Japanese model 12 were the worst. Best thing to do was hope they fell out. wink


Originally Posted By: buzz
That ‘Custom Built’ means nothing without the letter. That’s faked too. Do you have any idea who has the capability to make these things? Go buy it Replacement or MrCrocket. If it’s a real Win it’s a bargain at what they are asking. crazy

They do have one .410 listed with a winchester museum letter and a letter from the engraver for 65k! Seems kinda high. Nothing about a letter for the skeet gun. I see your point (does custom built by winchester sound kinda cheesy?). They do make csmc model 21s there with the tooling from the last company that made win 21s and they don't call them winchesters, which was kind of my original point.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 12/01/20 06:33 PM
Winchester engraved the top ribs ‘Custom Built By Winchester’ on their custom grades and those from the custom shop. Nothing ‘cheesy’ about that. What’s cheesy is engraving that on a top rib on a gun NOT produced by Winchester. Cheesy equates to fraud in that case imho.
For the ‘Experts’ on the Forum, What does ‘Custom Built Winchester’ on the rib mean?

Custom Shop gun? Maybe, depends on when it was manufactured, before 1968, there was no ‘Custom Shop’, only Custom Built shotguns.
As to value, that’s established when money changes hands.
The particular M21 is not a catalogued Model with standard choices of engraving but a Custom Order I have never seen.
I have had a number of dealings with Tony and own a CSMC Grand American ‘Baby Frame M21 in 28 ga and a Fox DE Special 16 ga made for me as well as other CSMC models made for me. A number of individuals who fancy themselves experts and collectors, put their noses in the air when they are mentioned.
If one wants an original Winchester M21 410, and particularly that gun then you have to pay the price and that price is $20K. A CSMC Baby Frame M21 which will weigh about 5# 13 oz starts at around $20.
-Richard

There are people out there that can duplicate any gun, any engraving any lettering, the only thing is the serial number that confirms it. Most gun companies had records of the serial numbers and what was ordered on them. I'm sure on a high graded gun as this there is some information and not just a serial number. If that is the case Buyer Beware.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 12/10/20 12:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Dick_dup1
For the ‘Experts’ on the Forum, What does ‘Custom Built Winchester’ on the rib mean?

Custom Shop gun? Maybe, depends on when it was manufactured, before 1968, there was no ‘Custom Shop’, only Custom Built shotguns.
As to value, that’s established when money changes hands.
The particular M21 is not a catalogued Model with standard choices of engraving but a Custom Order I have never seen.
I have had a number of dealings with Tony and own a CSMC Grand American ‘Baby Frame M21 in 28 ga and a Fox DE Special 16 ga made for me as well as other CSMC models made for me. A number of individuals who fancy themselves experts and collectors, put their noses in the air when they are mentioned.
If one wants an original Winchester M21 410, and particularly that gun then you have to pay the price and that price is $20K. A CSMC Baby Frame M21 which will weigh about 5# 13 oz starts at around $20.
-Richard

”Custom Built Winchester” was the nomenclature used when US Repeating Arms Company took over, conspicuously leaving out the word ‘By’ for the Custom grades, otherwise said as “Custom Built By Winchester”. I guess that’s what you are asking, Dick....and hopefully you are not trying to make a trick question since the meaning is apparently the same? Thanks.
Could this be a custom made bOb Cash special E'dition ?
You are correct BUZZ but for some collectors that ‘by’ means a great deal?
From what I understand after USRAC took over, very little changed in the Custom Shop other than a new brochure.
There was a collector that collected only Custom Shop guns he ordered and never put them together. He had an extensive website with all the guns listed.
He tried to sell the entire collection together and I guess that did not work out.
The number of guns should have depressed the market for years to come.
The best advice I got was from Steve Barnett, if not a ‘Custom Built’, don’t worry about a letter.
I purchased a Custom Built that was sold to me as a 32”VR, shadow line cheek piece Trap but had a Hession forearm. It was Pigeon gun and there was no Cody letter with that serial number. I bought it and eventually showed it to Tony who said he would purchase it if I ever wanted to sell as it was definitely a factory gun. Tony eventually got it on a trade.
Experience is everything in purchasing M21’s.
-Richard
Originally Posted By: Dick_dup1

I have had a number of dealings with Tony and own a CSMC Grand American ‘Baby Frame M21 in 28 ga and a Fox DE Special 16 ga made for me as well as other CSMC models made for me. A number of individuals who fancy themselves experts and collectors, put their noses in the air when they are mentioned.


I'm no collector like you...but eYe can see past my nOse.

Would it be fair to say that buying one of the above is like buying a new car ?....Once around the block and you've lost thousands.
Posted By: SKB Re: Save! 42% on Winchester Model 21 .410!!!! - 12/12/20 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: Dick_dup1

I have had a number of dealings with Tony and own a CSMC Grand American ‘Baby Frame M21 in 28 ga and a Fox DE Special 16 ga made for me as well as other CSMC models made for me. A number of individuals who fancy themselves experts and collectors, put their noses in the air when they are mentioned.


I'm no collector like you...but eYe can see past my nOse.

Would it be fair to say that buying one of the above is like buying a new car ?....Once around the block and you've lost thousands.


Pretty much like any bespoke item. Show me a high dollar custom anything that holds its value, not much does.

You commission a custom gun for your own personal enjoyment. If you are looking for a sound investment then contact your stock broker.

Pretty much all hobbies cost you something to be in the game, owning fine guns is no different, with very few exceptions.
I have proudly lost value, or actual money, on every new gun, custom, upgrade, or project gun I have ever approached.
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Could this be a custom made bOb Cash special E'dition ?


Ol'bOb is hiding like a denned up groundhAwg...
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com