I have a 20 gauge Winchester 101, 30" barrels choked full and full. When I acquired it a few years ago it was unfired since it was brought back from Japan in 1967. Since then it's been shot 3 or 4 hundred rds give or take.

Before I ever shot it I took the butt stock off and used spray cleaner and air pressure to clean any old lubricant off and then re-oiled with Wilson gun oil.

The gun shoots fine with pretty much all ammo except the White box Winchester you get at Walmart....save your Walmart jOkes.

The gun is hard to open with the Winchester white box 20 ga. ammo. My buddy shot it the other day and was struggling with breaking it open. I remarked...takes a man to shoot that gun.

With most other brands it's a little stiff but it's okay. Gun works fine with Remington Gun Club ammo but who knows their future.

Any thoughts other than don't shoot the cheap Winchester White box ammo ?

I’ve had failures to eject using this ammo in my Beretta 303s, both 12 and 20. Only brand I’ve had trouble with. I have not used it in break open guns.

jOe, try a very light polish of the chambers...not much else you can do?

I don't know the primers in this ammo. It may be that these primers are softer than most. With some firing pin dragout. The lower firing pin having excess protrusion and catching in the primer when the gun is open. In other shells you feel it but the primer indentation is less.

That would be my guess, and I would look for drag marks on the spent primers and pull the firing pin to examine the tip under magnification.

I've had this problem with my various Beretta o/u's and a couple of my Spanish sxs's. I have experienced it with all kinds of "economy" ammo. I disassembled a couple of Estate shells the other day that were all bent out of shape, straight from the box. I had Remington's on which the metal heads pulled away leaving the rest of the hull in the chambers,
Remmington made that good, but I didn't have the lot #, etc for the Estate shell. With 20 bure I just quit buying them for use in my 686. My learning, spend a little more and have fewer issues. I also usually run my hands over all of the shells when drop them into my ammo pouch.

try taping a spent hull with painter's blue tape, same problem brand, fire the bottom barrel, open and see if there are traces of primer being dragged. Re-cock gun, repeat procedure with top barrel. Issue could be failure of gun to rebound striker which isn't as noticeable on harder primers. Might be easier to see on unfired shell but with tape over primer or maybe just blackened with Sharpie. It goes without saying, but I will anyway. Don't try candle sooting on unfired primer. Gil

Also I would, using a decent caliper, measure the respective diameters of the hulls, particularly the brass near the rim--those that hang up and those that don't, also before and after firing. The other Gil

The Winchester white box ammo all eject perfectly...once you wrestle the gun open.

Leave the gun at home and shoot your pair of Boss over unders, I mean under overs.

Those steel head casings are known for sticking in chambers. They are high pressure to run dirty semi autos. The steel doesn't shrink back like brass. Chamber cleaning and polishing may help if you can't find good shells.

How? I cannot understand how steel shell casings can cause the gun to be hard to open. I know they can cause failures to eject well, but that is not jOe's problem with this gun.

If there's a way, I'm willing to listen and learn.

SRH

I could see it on an extractor gun, but not an ejector gun.

Still betting there will be signs of pin drag on the primers. It would be interesting to know if it is hard to open regardless of which barrel is fired. I'll bet it only happens if the lower barrel is fired.

Hey Stan.
Does your Verona ever have this problem?
Just sayin'.

WW universal's have a bad rep around here, WW Super Target have a great rep. Both are in white boxes. Universal or Super target or both?

bill

I have an Ugartechea 28 gauge that is hard to open with Winchester AA's and the primers show distinct drag marks. I have no trouble opening the gun with any other ammo including the Italian made Herter's and Fiocchi's. When I reloaded I had no trouble with Nobel Sport, Fiocchi, CCI, Federal or Cheddite primers.

At least with my Uggie I believe that the softer metal of the primer is the primary issue. I solved the problem by not shooting Winchester AA's.

That's odd, FlyChamps. My 28 ga. Verona loves AAs. In fact, that's all I've ever shot in it. I got a great deal on several flats of it awhile back and I'm still using it. I've never tried the white box Winchesters in it. Actually, I don't really shoot the 28 that much.

I have used them in my 20 ga. Beretta 687. They were the Super Targets. Never had an issue with them in that gun.

Stuff like this can be aggravating.

SRH

Been waiting for this. Maybe Stan could loan Frank a Verona.

I have this problem with only Federal target loads in one of my Cashmores. It is only on the right barrel and inspection of the cases showed drag and inspection of the firing in showed some burrs had developed somehow. A touch of a file and it's no problem, but I don't often use Federal commercial loads.

I worked as range officer at our club for large group events.Biggest problem with white box Winchesters were with pumps not ejecting. Not a firing pin problem, always thought steel base causing this. Super Targets okay. Winchester using different bases or what? Never miked the rim thickness to see if they were thinner & ejector not catching the rim. Not Joe type of problem.

I have the same problem with my reloads using Winchester primers with my early A grade 12 gauge Fox. It too is hard to open after firing these shells.

Shooting reloads with Remington, Fiocchi and Cheddite primers, the gun opens fine.

I measured the firing pin protrusion through the standing breech with the barrels off and both hammers down in the fired position. The firing pins are at the tips of the hammers.

Both firing pins measure about 0.060" extending past the standing breech. Other Fox's that I shoot, they extend about 0.050" and they will shoot those Winchester primed shells just fine.

With Fox doubles with the barrels off, it's easy to dry fire it and make that measurement. Put the barrels and fore end back on and recock the hammers. Can't do that with some guns, ala L. C. Smith.

If you can measure how far the firing pins extend past the standing breech on the problem gun, that may tell you something.

Annoying to say the least.

I beg to differ regarding the L.C. Smith- if you have the handy tool available through the LCSCA gruppen, recocking the hammer axles is easy-- and it is a versatile little rascal, as you can decock the leaf springs with it, should you wish to detail strip the locks-- RWTF

Sounds like the most logical answer...this only happens with Winchester Universal 20 ga. Any other time the easy solution would be don't shoot it.
With this ammo shortage Winchester Universal is the only game in town. I have another gun it works just fine in.

Winchester Universal is not so universal.

I would also suspect a bit of excessive firing pin protrusion from the standing breech face on the lower bbl.

I had Josef Jurjevic [one of the bast double-gun smith's of all time, IMHO] tell me back in the early 70's that one millimetre or .040" was the minimum you wanted for consistent ignition and that 1.5 mm or .060" was the outer limit & any more would cause firing pin drag, making most double guns hard to open after firing and for some, that outer limit might be too much.

Its easily checked dropping the hammers w/a block of very hard wood or the classic bit of horn held against the breech face and then using a feeler gauge held flat against the breech face next to the firing pin being measured.

I'd also give the nose of that pin a close inspection for any chips or irregularities. If any are noted and they are not deep, the pin should be removed and they should be stoned out smooth. It is also how one goes about reducing too much protrusion, should it be found the culprit.

I'm assuming the hard opening is only experienced with fired cartridges; is that correct?

Those are fun guns! I've a 20 of the same vintage bought new w/28" bbl.'s choked MOD & FULL and it has shot many limits of dove & large bags of feral pigeons w/ 7/8's oz. of #6's in the Federal Field loads w/the two-piece 'Pushin' Cushion' plastic wads and thousands of clay targets using #8 7/8's ounce reloads mostly, but also new CF WW AA's, and older Remington & Federal target loads in the years I've had it and I've never had the first issue w/it.

I've never fired any of the Winchester Universal white box ammunition in it that you are experiencing the opening issue with.

I did quit using the Remington 'Gun Club's' for reloading because of extraction issues experienced w/certain 20 ga. reloads in some std. weight 1100's. Those washed steel heads do not have the same type of memory as brass and they take more effort when resizing/de-priming when using single-stage loaders like a MEC. I'm only reloading the WW CF and AA HS hulls these days.

Don’t know if steel has different memory or just has more friction than softer brass shell heads.

Just fired shells.

I bought some 20ga. Winchester Super Target today at Walmart but left my 20 at home and shot my bOss 12 ga. today in preparation for the VerOnoa Cup.

Which one of the Boss matched pair did you shoot jOe, the #1 gun, or #2?

Had that happen with my Andrews when shooting some ammo with thin silvery bases. Looked like aluminum. Maybe Win. Game Loads. Might be wrong, but I attributed the hard opening to a worn extractor mechanism that caused the extractors to to override the soft thin rims.

RWTF,

You are absolutely, 100% correct. If you have the L. C. Smith cocking tool, you can cock the hammer(s) and put the barrels back on the gun. You can do it too if you're handy with a screw driver.

As you're away from home to hunt some good grouse cover and you take your LCS out of its take down case. If the opening lever is centered and the SAFE is off and you touch one of the triggers, you won't get the barrels on to cock the gun.

If you don't have the LCS tool with you or a screw driver, you can leave the LCS in its case.

Thank you for suggesting that LCS tool to cock the hammers.

#1 Actually I gave the #2 gun to the charity HGEBHOHAS.

Pronounced Hge'bO'ass

Short for he's a big head arrogant azz and he just cant help it.

I know it sounds Arabic but really it stands for Help Get Eightbores
Head out his azz...some would say a waste of time and money.

jOe, I will be interested in how the Winchester Super Target ammo functions for you when you get a chance to shoot some of it. I'm thinking, but do not know for a fact that the cartridge heads are the same as the 'Universals'. Powder & primers may well be different. I dunno.

Sorry that you are finding limited availability of 20 ga. ammunition where you are. I'm hearing similar stories here and know my wholesaler is presently out of 20 ga. target ammunition. Crazy times and unprecedented demand, at the moment. Hoping it will abate soon, but that remains to be seen.