Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" - with an extra set of 16ga Barrels

Hello All,

Here is another dandy Cape Gun in my collection. Its in 16ga x 11.15x65R. And this one came with an extra set of 16ga. shotgun barrels.

As is typical of European Cape Guns, the rifle barrel is on the right, the shotgun barrel is on the left. English Cape guns are the opposite with the rifle barrel on the left, and the shotgun barrel on the right. Not sure what the reasoning is for this, but that's the way they are all made.

I had an extra vintage take-down case laying around, so I modified it to hold the gun with both barrels, with room for a few accessories.

Although the 11.15x65R is an obsolete old World cartridge, I was able to make a couple of cartridges using brass 410ga shotgun cases. The 410ga brass case dimensions are nearly identical to the original cartridge, except they are a little short by about 2/10 inches. With modest loading they should work just fine. I can't wait to shoot this one, maybe taking it hunting this Fall.

As always, your comments are welcome.

Here's the specs from the auction (with corrections)

(Pre-World War I) 26 - 3/4" rifle/shotgun barrels are gold inlaid "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne Kreiensen" in milled out portion of full length matted rib fitted with one standing leaf rear sight and silver bead front. 29 - 1/2" double shotgun barrels have the same marking in silver on matted concave game rib. Both barrel sets are stamped with imperial German nitro proofs with no date stamp. Shotgun barrels are stamped "16", and rifle barrel with caliber "10.5 mm" (bore) .438 groove diameter straight cartridge 2-1/2" long with base diameter .480, rim diameter .520. Coin finished top lever sidelock action features non-automatic safety, pin type cocking indicators in top of action, crossbolt third fastener, and double triggers (front set). Action is engraved with near full coverage nicely cut and shaded semi relief scrolling acanthus. On lockplates this treatment frames game scenes; left side depicts a roebuck and doe in open meadow, with a flying pheasant in background. Right side has scene of leaping stag with flushing grouse in foreground. There is a puff of smoke obscuring barrel of rifle being fired by hunter in background. Steel trigger guard is engraved with matching scroll. Relatively plain European walnut horn capped pistol grip buttstock measures 13 - 1/2" over ribbed horn buttplate. Stock features right hand shadow line cheekpiece, point pattern checkering, and a sling loop matching that on barrels. Matching splinter forend with inlet schnabel horn tip has Deeley release. Weight: 6 lbs 6 oz. (with either set of barrels in place)





















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Buckstix,
You should be able to make cases from 7x65R or 9.3x74R cases, although necking up the 7x65R cases would result in slightly short cases. Also, rims might need adjusting in thickness and/or diameter.
Mike

Hello Der Ami,
Thanks for the reply.

This one like all my others, already has brass made, and I've shot it often.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/BURGSMULLER-4.jpg

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/BURGSMULLER-5.jpg

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/BURGSMULLER-5a.jpg

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/BURGSMULLER-6.jpg

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/BURGSMULLER-7.jpg

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/BURGSMULLER-8.jpg



Well, it passed thru the Suhl proof facility post 1912 and before say circa 1919 when the >>Nitro<< stamps migrated to the flats.

LLH defines the tubes as being from Liege / Jupille by Laurent Lochet - Habran and there may be more Belgian components but I cannot see all the marks clearly. The sidelock is some variant or even a trigger-plate action. It might be some Keller action variant?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Dang Raimey, Alabama brings the research lumber!!! Tennessee? After the sad passing of Miller - a true Southern gentleman and a metallurgist of note - not much.

Well, of course & you are the Poster Child? When are we going to break bread or enjoy a dram?



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/BURGSMULLER-8.jpg

I just can't put my finger on the pin configuration.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I was thinking it might be similar to the Sauer - Belgian connection but it was shaped like a Boxlock:

J.P. Sauer Triggerplate Round Action:

>>Though this ultra-rare Sauer & Sohn gun is not recorded anywhere, asking around showed that tales about it are still known among old Suhl gunsmithes, one of them even remembering having such a thing repaired and restocked many years ago. It is remembered as a major blunder of the major gunmaker Sauer&Sohn.
As both guns show pre-1912 Suhl proofmarks, dates from 1906-10 may be ok.
In the early 1900s the Anson& Deeley boxlock action was not so entrenched as it was post-WW1. At that time Sauer & Sohn, always on the outlook for new designs that are easier/cheaper to make, were offerd a "novel" design from Liege, the Belgian Gunmaking centre. Just to give it a try they bought in a handful of these actions in the rough from Liege and completed them. The resulting guns were not to their liking, so they dropped the design after offering the few guns, apparently for export also.Less than ten were ever made. The design proved to be as complicated to make as their then standard designs, so there was no advantage here. The stocks had to be hollowed out a lot and were prone to breaking, as there was little wood to metal contact.. The handling qualities, weight distribution, were unsatisfactory.
As usual with most break-open guns, the action is a recombination of known design features. So this action was probably never patented.
The design with triggerplate locks, but mainsprings inside the action bar, is a relative of Tranter's gun, British patent # 1881 of 1882, sold by Tranter's son-in-law Watson as the "Carlton gun". Some Belgian substituted Tranter's cocking lever with a slide, pushed back by the inclined rear surface of the front lump. In the photo of the watertable above the roller on the slide that bears against the front lump is visible.
Nevertheless, I am still interested in how the cocking of the locks is accomplished. In the photo of the watertable you can see a roller in the forward cutout for the front barrel lump. Apparently this roller is forced back by the incline on the lump to cock the locks. This roller may be attached to a seperate cocking slide, but a simpler solution would be the mode of the British Gibbs & Pitt "Second Model". Here the locking underbolt forces back the hammers. On the First model G&P, British patent # 284 of 1873, cocking was accomplished by turning the toplever 90 degrees, which pulled back the underbolt far enough to cock the hammers. On the second model, dateable before 1887, cocking is just started by moving the toplever until the barrels are unlocked. Then an incline on the front barrel lump, very similar to the one on this "Sauer" gun, takes over and pushes the underbolt back further until the locks are at full cock.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=261189&page=all

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Hello,

Maybe one day if I get time, I'll remove a lock and take pictures.