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Posted By: tallen702 New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 04:42 PM
Greetings! Long-time lurker here who finally signed up for an account to be able to get in on the conversations more.

I recently picked up a Post-'23 French SxS at auction and wondered if I was missing anything from the marks. I figure Argo44 would catch anything I might have missed, but there's really only one mark that is a bit of mystery to me.

For all appearances, this seems to be a St. Etienne Guild-made 12ga SxS with 65mm chambers and 18.3 for the "choke" on both barrels giving it the equivalent of an IC choke in US terms. Single smokeless proof on each barrel along with the initials E.M. under the choke/rectefie mark. "Compressed Rolled Steel" for the barrel material. The only mystery mark to me is the M "Star" M near the rib on the left barrel. Not sure if this gives a clue as the manufacturer of the barrel or not. It's obviously a A&D style boxlock and I assume the action bolt is of the VC helical design, but have not investigated yet.

The engraving of holly leaves and berries on the fences is fantastic and I quite like the rest of the engraving as well. The wrist, unfortunately, is cracked through. It came completely apart when I released the trigger plate and tang tension taking it apart last night to see what repair would need to be effected. Luckily, the break is extremely clean with no missing chips, and when pressed back together, is seamless to the eye. 3/32 diameter brass stock repair rods are inbound along with some Acraglas gel from Brownell's to get it back together and reinforced. The forend is chipped on the left front above the checkering border and there's a crack near the center as well. This too will be properly repaired. The bores are pitted, but not very deeply giving me hope that a simple, gentle elongation of the forcing cones with a mild hone by a professional will take care of the worst of it. The original horn buttplate shows the usual signs of insect activity, but other than the wrist break and crack at the forend, the wood is good structurally overall.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's the damage to the wood:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/O4kv8bz.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/GGLrSX7.jpg[/img]

The only question I have other than "Did I miss anything?" is how to get the trigger guard separated from the plate. I assume is like any other double where it is threaded and screws into the plate, but it won't budge left or right which made getting the plate and tang separated a little difficult. Can't tell if it's rusted in place, or if there's some esoteric French system of removing them. Any help would be appreciated as I'd like to get a thorough cleaning done.
Posted By: Mark II Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 05:22 PM
It appears to be a typical french guild gun. Yes the trigger guard should unscrew from the action. Try some penetrating oil, or heat. To get the tail out of the wood, tap the back of the guard with screwdriver or hammer handle, that should pop it out. Good luck.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 05:56 PM
Tallen, you've got all the marks that I can see. Afraid I can't help much.

I have seen a Jean Breuil barrel mark with a Star.....So, going only on this, it may be that M (Star) M is the barrel maker:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I've also seen a "Choke Rectifie" stamp with the barrel borer's initials on it...which may be what you have.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I looked at the 1951 list of gun makers in Saint Etienne but unfortunately there are only last names on it so can't winnow this down further without some additional research. Here are the "M"'s:

Maisonnial Aimé, 13 rue Clément Forissier ;
Manufacture Française d’Armes et de Cycles, Cours Fauriel ;
Manufacture Nationale d’Armes, 2 rue Javelin Pagnon ;
Marnas, 13 rue du Rozier ;
Marsault, 6 boulevard Valbenoîte ;
Martin-Dubost, 38 rue Badouillère ;
Mathieu, 25 rue Badouillère ;
Maumey Jean-Baptiste, 35 rue Mulatière ;
Meunier, 7 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Montagny Aîné, 48 rue Gambetta ;
Montcoudiol Lucien (Mécanique), Saint-Bonnet-le-Château ;

We discussed a number of times the "Helice" key. Verney Caron patented a top key and trademarked it three times under various names but none of them were simply "Helice." That word came to be stamped on a lot of French keys, as it came to be associated with "Quality." Larry finally showed what the difference was. A VC top key will not have a slot in the key - VC turned it around so it never needs adjusting. A Scott Spindle top key has a slot in it:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 06:20 PM
It is a Helice.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 06:20 PM
It is a Helice.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 06:20 PM
It is A >>Helice<<.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: tallen702 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 07:00 PM
I figured as much, but felt it was worth checking just in case I was missing something!

FWIW, I'm just a bit across the river from you, Argo44. Up in the Agricultural Reserve of Montgomery County near Damascus. This gun came out of a not-well-advertised online auction in Howard County. I picked it up for very little, especially by today's standards in pricing. There was a very nice William Evans .410 Bore in the original case in the auction as well. Had I had the money to bid on it, I would have. Ultimately it went for just $1030. The most interesting part was that there was still a receipt for the sale of it to whoever brought it over from Scotland for £1 in what looks like 1941 or 1971 depending on the hard to see third number of the year. I wish I could have won that one! https://maryland.hibid.com/lot/8076...a-shotgun/?ipp=10&q=&ref=catalog
Posted By: KY Jon Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 07:44 PM
That is a good solid shooter. Needs a bit of work but nothing that extreme. Think of it as a learning tool. Many here can help guide you step by step if needed. Or YouTube has several good videos on minor wood repairs.

Funny thing about most French guns we see here is that they are almost all lower grade guns. I wonder if they hid them when the Nazis came and never came back in GI bags or I’d higher graded guns just never we sold in any numbers. Perhaps the later I think.
Posted By: tallen702 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 08:16 PM
This one is definitely a contender for GI bring-back status.

I cleaned the bores the day I got it home by running a 12ga bore snake through it with Remington Bore Bright. It was dirty, but not awful. I started inspecting the interior and saw what looked like a bunch of dirt where the chambers meet the forcing cones, so I poked around a bit and found that it was waxed paper from old-style shotshells. I continued cleaning and eventually ran one of the Hoppes Tornado-Style bore brushes down it which really pulled the paper out. Lots and lots of flecks of waxed reddish-orange paper. I figure it hasn't been fired since the 40s or 50s at the latest given that fact. It was all old and fragile, not new production stuff. The lack of any importation marks makes me think it's a Pre-68 bring-back or import regardless.

I'm looking forward to fixing it up and getting it back into action taking pheasants and chukar up in PA.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 09:39 PM
Raimey, you know that's not going to work.....when you say something quickly three times, to make it true, you also have to jump in the air and click your heels three times at the same time. smile

Tallen, the 18.3 won't give you the chokes. You'll have to run a bore check thingy. I would bet the chokes are tight, .024 or higher. And I am curious about that "DA 8883" or something like that, I can't play with contrast etc. enough to make it out, on the barrel. What is it?
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I believe 8 bore lives close to you too.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 09:49 PM
Argo44:

I was wondering when you would reply with that exact verbiage.

Sebus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: tallen702 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 10:58 PM
It's D.A. 6665. 6665 is stamped on the water table, flats, both triggers, the floor plate, and possibly other parts I haven't gotten to yet. So I'm assuming that's the serial number or at least a number to prevent mixing of parts since everything seems to be hand-fitted to some degree. The only place the D.A. appears before the number is there on the barrels. D.A. may be the maker's initials?

I have some digital calipers for my reloading bench, would that work for determining the choke?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 11:08 PM
The barrels look quite long. You can measure the constriction but the measurement of choke is empirical; a pattern effort being dependent on shotsize.

I assume >>E.M.<< and >>M.*M.<< are related?

Can you pleasure us w/ a pic of the water-table?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/14/21 11:11 PM
Do I read the steel type on the flats as >>Acier Comprime<< over >>Surlamine<<??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: tallen702 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/15/21 03:32 AM
I'll post a picture of the water-table tomorrow. Not much there, just the 6665 and a single smokeless proof. And yes, you do read the steel type correctly. Acier Comprime Surlamine. If my high school French serves me well, It means "Rolled Compressed Steel" (Literally Steel, Compressed, Rolled) with "Surlamine" being a somewhat obscure method of saying "rolled" specifically for metal. (Google Translate even has it listed in the "see more translations" for "rolled")
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/15/21 03:57 AM
Ronchard Cizeron in the 1890's began stamping his barrels "Acier Comprime" which was a direct translation of the Whitworth steel "Compressed Steel" mark.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=557199&page=4

Whitworth steel barrels appeared in 1875:

Whitworth fluid compressed steel was invented by Mr. Joseph Whitworth, who we already talked about when discussing polygonal bore rifling and the Whitworth rifle. Mr. Whitworth was the eminent mechanical engineer of his day and came up with a way of producing a stronger cast steel. His process consists of melting a steel ingot into a mold and applying pressure of up to 6 tons/sq. inch to the mold while the steel is in a liquid state. The pressure drives out all the gases and eliminates blowholes in the cast steel. It also increases the density and strength of the steel. According to W.W. Greener's book, The Gun and its Development, with the introduction of choke boring in shotgun barrels, whitworth steel was found very suitable for this process and started replacing damascus barrels, and he mentions in 1875, "Whitworth steel was giving great satisfaction for rifle barrels, a leading London gun-maker adopted it for shotgun barrels." The leading London gun-maker was Purdey & Sons, who used Whitworth steel exclusively for years after that. Use of Whitworth steel for gun-making spread to America as well and well known makers such as Parker, L.C. Smith and Lefevre were making guns using this steel, way into the 1930s.

This DGS line discussed it in 2007...Whitworth patented his compressed steel in 1874; 1st Purdey with Whitworth barrels delivered 1 Jan 1880, ordered 3 years previously.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...&PHPSESSID=
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/15/21 04:12 AM
Re "D.A." I'm sort of leaning towards "Alloni" (fnu) as being the gun maker.
Alloni, 12 boulevard Valbenoîte

Nothing to go on....no more specific info...but there is a girl in Saint Etienne named "Alloni-Berger"...Gun maker families intermarried. (Weak reasoning of course)
https://www.verif.com/societe/ALLONI-BERGER-NATHALIE-492909361/
Posted By: fab500 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/15/21 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Argo44
Ronchard Cizeron in the 1890's began stamping his barrels "Acier Comprime" which was a direct translation of the Whitworth steel "Compressed Steel" mark.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=557199&page=4

Whitworth steel barrels appeared in 1875:

Whitworth fluid compressed steel was invented by Mr. Joseph Whitworth, who we already talked about when discussing polygonal bore rifling and the Whitworth rifle. Mr. Whitworth was the eminent mechanical engineer of his day and came up with a way of producing a stronger cast steel. His process consists of melting a steel ingot into a mold and applying pressure of up to 6 tons/sq. inch to the mold while the steel is in a liquid state. The pressure drives out all the gases and eliminates blowholes in the cast steel. It also increases the density and strength of the steel. According to W.W. Greener's book, The Gun and its Development, with the introduction of choke boring in shotgun barrels, whitworth steel was found very suitable for this process and started replacing damascus barrels, and he mentions in 1875, "Whitworth steel was giving great satisfaction for rifle barrels, a leading London gun-maker adopted it for shotgun barrels." The leading London gun-maker was Purdey & Sons, who used Whitworth steel exclusively for years after that. Use of Whitworth steel for gun-making spread to America as well and well known makers such as Parker, L.C. Smith and Lefevre were making guns using this steel, way into the 1930s.

This DGS line discussed it in 2007...Whitworth patented his compressed steel in 1874; 1st Purdey with Whitworth barrels delivered 1 Jan 1880, ordered 3 years previously.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...&PHPSESSID=




Salut Argo44

Jean Didier était le fils de Jean-Pierre Didier et de Marie Drevet. Il est né à Saint-Etienne le 9 septembre 1856. épouse à Saint-Etienne le 25 novembre 1882, Fleurine Mathaud (Saint-Etienne, 4 août 1859), couturière 7 rue du Haut Vernay. Jean Didier est alors canonnier 5 rue du Haut Vernay. En 1883, il est canonnier au 14 de la rue du Haut Vernay et en 1888, au 11 Grande rue Saint-Roch. Associé à la veuve de Ronchard-Cizeron par acte du 22 juillet 1901, il fonde la société Didier et Cie, dans laquelle la veuve Ronchard-Cizeron est majoritaire. Ils déposent les marques « déposé - acier comprimé » au-dessus et au-dessous d'une presse le 12 août 1904 et « RC rectifié » de part et d'autre et au-dessous d'une médaille le 28 novembre 1907. Didier et Cie, rassemblant les ateliers et les marques de Didier-Drevet et Ronchard-Cizeron, sont hors-concours comme membre du jury à Saint-Etienne en 1904, à Liège en 1905, primés à Londres en 1908, à Bruxelles en 1910 et à Turin en 1911. Didier et Cie obtiennent également la médaille d'or du prix Escoffier de la Chambre de commerce en 1904 pour leur canon plume « Euréka » et sa cale unique en acier mandriné, breveté
Il décède à Saint-Etienne en décembre 1940.
Posted By: tallen702 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/15/21 12:18 PM
RE Jean Didier:

Excuse the somewhat sloppy translation. Google Translate is getting better and better, but it's still not perfect. I found the following regarding the history of the Jean Didier lineage and gun-making.

"At the origin of the "light" from 1925

Canons Plume: this name, which dates back more than a century, remains familiar to us. But the multiplicity of brands with which it has been associated makes it difficult to reconstruct its history. The many branches of the armor lineage that gave birth to him add further to the confusion.

If you have a rifle with Plume cannons in your hands, you might run into a lot of confusion as to its origin, but there are two things you can be sure of. A Plume barrel is always associated with the specific markings of the Saint-Etienne proofhouse and necessarily equips a French rifle manufactured in the interwar period, but whose use may have continued until the 1960s, when the juxtaposed will give way to superimposed, with in particular the fashion of sporting and ball-trap.

The Didier-Drevet line

The invention of the principle of the Plume barrel is due to a Saint-Etienne gunsmith, Jean-Pierre Didier (1831-?). Initially a gun sharpener in Rochetaillée, in the Loire region, he moved to Saint-Etienne in 1862 as a gunner, at 7 rue de Villeboeuf. After his marriage to Marie Drevet in 1855, he changed the name of his brand, which became Didier-Drevet, often mistaken for the first name and the name of the manufacturer. We find traces of the firm in 1868, at the Saint-Etienne exhibition. From 1870, Jean-Pierre Didier was assistant controller on the proofhouse. In 1887, he became president of the Chambre Syndicale des Manufacturers de Cannons de la Loire, a founding member of the Conservatory of Fine Arms and of the Christian Corporation of Stéphanois Armourers. Above all, he obtained several grand prizes at the Universal Exhibitions of Paris in 1889 and 1900. A year earlier, in 1899, he registered the Canons Plume Eureka brand. Some confusion may have arisen with his parent Joannès Didier (1874-1954), also a gunsmith, awarded a gold medal at the Saint-Etienne exhibition in 1904. However, it was also in 1904 that Didier et Cie , which, as we will see immediately, is the mark of the son of JeanPierre Didier, was awarded the gold medal of the Escoffier prize from the chamber of commerce for its Eureka feather barrel with a single chock in mandrinated steel. But the Plume barrel is to be linked to the founder of the Didier-Drevet brand and to his son, Jean (1856-1940), as well as to the latter's sons, Pierre (1883-1969) and Clément (1888-1955) . Jean-Pierre Didier handed over to Jean in 1920. The latter was himself a gunner, first rue du Haut-Vernay, then at 11 Grande-Rue-Saint-Roch. We owe him a fruitful association, from 1901, with the widow Ronchard-

Cizeron. Together, they will deposit the markings "compressed steel" and "rectified RC". With their Plume cannon, the two workshops, united under the name of Didier et Cie, will truster European laurels: Liège (1905), London (1908), Brussels (1910), Turin (1911). What about the Didierfusil and Didierétui brands, which are probably just as much, if not more familiar to us? They are those of ClémentMarius Didier (1888-1955), another son of the founder, who after having been associated with his father and his brother, had to continue alone after the retirement of the first in 1920 and the cessation of activity of the second after the First. World War which had left him amputated of a leg. In 1920, Clément - Marius Didier therefore founded the company Didier Fils, still in Saint-Etienne, which successively sits on rue Cizeron, Tissot and des Mouliniers. Its productions are Anson system weapons and classic or Plume cannons.

On a diet before everyone else!

The particularity of these tubes, pioneers in the quest for lightness, is that they do not have an intermediate band thanks to an assembly by a single brazed wedge. The pointed aiming micro-band is nicknamed eagle's beak and provides quality aim despite its three small centimeters. The absence of a real sighting strip allows a saving of 200 g compared to traditional guns. Thinning the tubes here and there, while preserving a sufficient thickness in the sensitive parts (at the level of the chokes and the connection with the grenadières in particular), makes it possible to subtract another hundred grams. This gives a rifle that is both light (2.6 kg in 12, and this well before the war!), Handy (often with 68 cm tubes) and totally modular, "à la carte", like the majority of productions. high profile of the interwar period; everything was available, turntables, English sticks, marbling… The Didierfusil house favors quality over quantity, limiting itself to a production of 500 units per year, guaranteed for five years. Although having actively participated in the war effort, the manufacturer who never ceased to struggle with financial problems throughout the duration of his activity, closed in 1924. The Didierfusil and DidierDrevet brands were however taken over by Laspoussas-Driol which , until 1950, perpetuates and renews the genre with “Didierfusil 1919 OP, registered trademark”. Laspoussas had already absorbed, in 1923, the Berthon brothers, creators of the Perfecta lock-plate rifles and themselves depositaries since 1910 of Martin Gesret, grand prize of the Paris exhibition of 1900 and Liège of 1905. Martin was the son of Antoine Gesret (1830-1914), founder of the Chambre Syndicale in 1885 and Secretary General of the Union des armuriers Stéphanois from 1903. This way of making light guns caught in a hoop will quickly be envied and copied, and that at big day from the moment it falls into the public domain. Darne and especially the gunner Fanget, with his Epervier model which would equip many Saint-Etienne weapons until the 1950s, used the fret devices of the Plume guns. In 1930, Didierfusil joined Sifarm (Industrial Company for the Manufacture of Hunting Weapons), a merger of small artisans (Berthon, Francisque Darne, Gerest, Ronchard-Cizeron) who, through this association, try to increase their resistance commercial in the face of competition from Manu, which was then running at full speed. Maisonnial equips its rifles, already renowned for their finesse both in quality and weight, with Plume barrels on request. Good level armories, such as Vouzelaud, ordered several of these weapons just before their production was stopped in 1965. Louis Zavattero, whose house was founded in 1880 and will disappear in 1968, supported by his son Joanny, makes a rifle Zedef Plume on barrels signed Jean Breuil. Note that the manufacturer has also given in the Darne process. Didier-Drevet has become a brand, if not forgotten at least, very little known, but many Stéphanois rifles from the 1930s and 1960s, not always easy to identify, are stamped with its famous guns. They ceased to be produced in 1963, when Verney-Carron took over both Sifarm and the Jean Breuil company, but without subsequent use of their processes. The Sagittarius, and its countless variations since its inception in 1968, is something of the descendant of those lightweight rifles, which hold the attention of today's connoisseurs. They come to us most often in good condition as the hunters who agreed before the war to put a significant price on a quality weapon knew how to take care of them. They bequeathed us Feathers whose liveliness is still astonishing today, still just as effective in the face of rapid woodcock and snipe."

Original article here: https://www.pressreader.com/france/armes-de-chasse/20180619/281517931826233


As for my particular gun, I may try my best to post it over at Chasse Passion (French hunting site and forum) to see if there's any other info out there that we simply don't see on this side of the pond due to the language barriers and search algorithm issues. Unless they have some insight into the M-star-M mark or the "D.A." or "E.M." marks, I doubt there's much more we'll learn though.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/16/21 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by Argo44
Tallen, you've got all the marks that I can see. Afraid I can't help much.

I have seen a Jean Breuil barrel mark with a Star.....So, going only on this, it may be that M (Star) M is the barrel maker:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I've also seen a "Choke Rectifie" stamp with the barrel borer's initials on it...which may be what you have.

I looked at the 1951 list of gun makers in Saint Etienne but unfortunately there are only last names on it so can't winnow this down further without some additional research. Here are the "M"'s:

Maisonnial Aimé, 13 rue Clément Forissier ;
Manufacture Française d’Armes et de Cycles, Cours Fauriel ;
Manufacture Nationale d’Armes, 2 rue Javelin Pagnon ;
Marnas, 13 rue du Rozier ;
Marsault, 6 boulevard Valbenoîte ;
Martin-Dubost, 38 rue Badouillère ;
Mathieu, 25 rue Badouillère ;
Maumey Jean-Baptiste, 35 rue Mulatière ;
Meunier, 7 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Montagny Aîné, 48 rue Gambetta ;
Montcoudiol Lucien (Mécanique), Saint-Bonnet-le-Château ;

We discussed a number of times the "Helice" key. Verney Caron patented a top key and trademarked it three times under various names but none of them were simply "Helice." That word came to be stamped on a lot of French keys, as it came to be associated with "Quality." Larry finally showed what the difference was. A VC top key will not have a slot in the key - VC turned it around so it never needs adjusting. A Scott Spindle top key has a slot in it:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

One small point: Neither of the guns shown in Argo's photos is a Verney Carron. Trademarks are very specific. One of the V-C trademarks is "Helice Grip". Note there's only one P. Other makers could avoid violating the V-C trademark by adding a 2nd P, as in those photos.
Posted By: Mark II Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/16/21 04:16 PM
Were you able to get it apart?
Posted By: Little Creek Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/16/21 04:19 PM
I had a similar French guild sxs 16 bore for a few years. I bought it at a small gunshop in Maine for $375. It was a 68 cm barrel 65 mm chamber ic and F gun that had probably been used for grouse. The gun overall was in good condition inside and out with only some deterioration of the nickel plate on the action bar. Weighed 5 pounds 11 ounces. First thing that happen was it began doubling with B&P one ounce loads (2-1/2"). I adjusted the sear and went on for several years, using it to hunt grouse and during dog training. Then it started to fail. It developed a light primer strike on one side. I sent it to a gunsmith and he found a broken main spring/replaced. Next thing that happened was it actually fired when the action closed! Back to the gunsmith. He said the metal used for the sears was very soft and he actually welded new metal tips and reshaped the sears. Back to good operation for a year and then I sold it...I believe this gun was quite old, had a serial number 408...Possibly pre WWI.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/16/21 05:02 PM
18.3 was the exact measured size of the bore, 9” from the standing breech, as measured by the proof house. It is very useful to quickly determine if the original bore size is altered from the dimension the gun passed proof at. Do not sneer at single French proof, it is quite stout. You can use a caliper at the ends of the barrels to ballpark the choke that is left.
The older I get, the less confidence I have in measured choke, one must pattern the gun to see what one has, with the loads you are using. Off the cuff, European guns seem to pattern tighter than they are marked in my world, ammunition differences are the likely culprit.
Good luck with your new to you Gun.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: graybeardtmm3 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/16/21 09:31 PM
interesting to note that the example on the left lacks the typical solid stop on the left indenture of the lever....that is a feature that i have come to automatically associate with the VC and it's many copies...

best regards,
tom

as per post 590063
Posted By: Lawrence Kotchek Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/17/21 12:23 AM
Welcome Tallen, I'm on MDS as well and several of us here shoot at the BCC IWLA. Lots of double gun shooters there.....
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/17/21 02:37 AM
Merci infinitivement fab500. -

Been out for a day.. The story of Jean-Pierre Didier is utterly interesting (And that on-line translation is better than mine I must say - though not as fun).

However, the story of Didier-Drevet as presented (In the machine translation) doesn't quite mesh with some advertisements and previous postings. I think actually fab500 is referring to the "Dating early 20th Century French Guns" line. This line dates 1889-1912 French guns based on the dates on Didier-Drevet Eureka Plume barrels. From 1889 to post June 11, 1912, Saint-Etienne guns used cm for chamber length.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=12

What we previously assumed about Didier-Drevet and its successors will be analyzed. The machine-translated post will also be re-read. There are members of the family mentioned in the post which need to be looked-at.

Previous texts show Pierre Didier-Drevet retiring in 1900 after his gold medal in Paris. His firm was then bought by his former employees Gerest-Berthon. The barrel-making part of the company, which was supposedly continued separately by a son, is new information.

(You have to be just as careful about French language "authoritative" posts as you do in English)

I bought a Gerest-Berthon 16 gauge SxS chambered for "7 cm" - with a 1906 dated Didier-Drevet barrel - which inspired that investigation.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Love this, but it should be posted as a separate line. Gene

(Jean) Pierre Didier-Drevet
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/17/21 04:11 AM
Larry, actually VC trademarked three names for his top key:

HELICOBLOC
HELISTOP
HELICE-GRIPP

Pretty's sure VC occasionally used "Helice-Grip" as well. Could you please post again that graphic of a VC Key - I seem to have lost it.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/17/21 04:13 AM
And Lawrence, someday I'd love to come across the river to shoot with you all....not that I'd light up the chart - shooting like crapola these days - but it gets lonely shooting a SxS at Bull Run. (at least people aren't wearing masks out on the range).
Posted By: Lawrence Kotchek Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/17/21 02:25 PM
Argo, I've never shot at Bull Run but last Sunday at BCC IWLA I shot a round of Chinese Trap, the guns being shot were a Woodward Single Barrel Trap Gun, A Fox Single Barrel Trap Gun, a 20 gauge California Duck Club Parker and my Ithaca NID Super 10 double. That's cooler than usual but still BCC is a great club.
If you want to play French, I have two Ideals and a Darne....
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/18/21 02:12 AM
Found it. VC turned the top key screw upside down...then added a lock down the barrel. He made his money on these innovations. "Helice" was never mentioned anywhere in his patents.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/18/21 03:18 AM
>>Helice<<, Heel Click I

>>Helice<<, Heel Click II

>>Helice<<, Heel Click III & terminal


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/18/21 03:34 AM
Fail. No witnesses.

But what the heck...Roll Tide.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/18/21 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by Argo44
Larry, actually VC trademarked three names for his top key:

HELICOBLOC
HELISTOP
HELICE-GRIPP

Pretty's sure VC occasionally used "Helice-Grip" as well.

Gene, my 1922 V-C catalog (the one with the great ad featuring French WWI ace of aces Rene Fonck) doesn't list "Helistop" as one of their trademarks. "Helice Grip" is repeated many times throughout the catalog, never with the extra p. "VerCar" and "Colonial" were also listed as tradmarks.

The first V-C I ever owned was Helice 33 No. 3. That's a fancier version of the Helice 33 introduced by V-C in 1933. They were apparently the first V-C guns to use coil springs vs flat springs.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/18/21 01:32 PM
So, >>Helice<< was a bona fide Modell?



Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/18/21 04:06 PM
No, "Helice" is "helical" and was never trademarked. See this line and comments by noted French gunsmith "Neltir" on the subject. Larry noted that Verney Caron specifically said that any gun with "Helice" on it did not use the VC patent until that patent expired (when that was exactly is not clear). After the patent expired, people just used it and stuck the word "Helice" on it such that it entered into the gun vocabulary.
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=448756&page=5

Two Verney Carron guns from today's Naturabuy.Fr. with Helicobloc, Helice Grip and Helice Gripp.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Verney-Carron-HELICE-HELICOBLOC-item-6725412.html
https://www.naturabuy.fr/VERNEY-CARON-A-PLATINES-CAL-12-item-873292.html
https://www.naturabuy.fr/VERNEY-CARRON-A-PLATINES-CAL-12-item-6432295.html
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/19/21 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by L. Brown
.........

The first V-C I ever owned was Helice 33 No. 3. That's a fancier version of the Helice 33 introduced by V-C in 1933. They were apparently the first V-C guns to use coil springs vs flat springs.

So, what might a >>Helice 33<< be? Is that the Modell of a V-C offering?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Argo44 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/19/21 02:05 AM
Well, Larry would know more. PassionlaChasse notes that Helice 33 is a system used by VC, not a model....the guns also had model names such as Pionnier, etc.

https://www.chassepassion.net/forums-chasse/topic/verney-carron-helice-33/

Bonjour,

la mention « HELICE 33 » est le nom d’un système pas du fusil. Votre arme doit une un « PIONNIER », une photo nous aiderait à vous en dire plus sur le modèle. Quand à l’année de sortie, le catalogue Verney-Carron 1939 en fait mention, mais le système est nettement plus ancien. Là encore il nous faudrait le nom du modèle. De toute façon, c’est une bonne arme, mais chambrée en 65, donc cartouches de 65mm ou 67.5mm.

https://www.verney-carron.com/pdf/catalogue-1939-FR-Verney-Carron.pdf
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/19/21 02:28 AM
Alright, then how does the >>Helice 33<< système differ from the below?

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]



Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/19/21 02:55 PM
So, could it be a >>Helice 33<< and that be a proper système term?



Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: L. Brown Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/19/21 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by ellenbr
So, could it be a >>Helice 33<< and that be a proper système term?



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I don't think so. But it does appear that V-C is quite capable of confusing those doing research as to model names. Straight off the pages they sent me from their 1933 catalog (I think it's actually 1934, because it includes the Helice 33 no. 3, which they describe as: "Modele cree en 1934.") On the previous page: "Epoque nouvelle . . . Modele nouveau! Helice 33." They certainly seem to be treating it as if it's a new model. They refer to simplifying the system, yet the 33 is described as: "Veritable Helice-Grip". They stress that the bolting system is the same, but that the firing system ("systeme de percussion") has replaced the leaf springs with "ressorts inoxydables en fil d'acier dit 'corde a piano'". That seems to be the only significant mechanical change they made in the Helice 33.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/19/21 03:58 PM
So, >>Helice 33<<, >>Helice 33 Nr. 3<<, >>Helice<<, etc.

are all misnomers? I do wonder whose piano was used as a donor for the springs??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: tallen702 Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/20/21 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Mark II
Were you able to get it apart?

Just about. The trigger guard is stuck solidly to the trigger plate. I've tried heat, penetrating oil, etc. to no avail.

I'm likely sending this one up to Rust Blue in Natick Mass for a complete strip-down and evaluation of cost for alleviating the pitting of the bore. The stock wound up being completely broken at the wrist. The compression of the tang and trigger plate was all that was holding it together. The proper brass stock repair dowels are inbound today along with acraglas to effect a repair. I have a jig built to apply proper tension to make the repair invisible when done.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: New-to-me French double: - 01/21/21 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by ellenbr
So, >>Helice 33<<, >>Helice 33 Nr. 3<<, >>Helice<<, etc.

are all misnomers? I do wonder whose piano was used as a donor for the springs??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse


I understand that one could choose either Liberace or Jerry Lee Lewis piano wire.
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