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Posted By: bls L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 02/28/21 10:44 PM
Team,
I have inherited my Grandfather's LC Smith 20ga FeatherWeight SxS he bought in 1947 after he came back from the war. The stories of "We used to sit on the hood of the car and shoot Pheasants as they flushed from gravel roads in South Dakota" are amusing!

So,
I've had a small stock crack professionally fixed, checkering re-cut (it was worn smooth), stock refinished, and the chambers opened up to a true 2 3/4" (the gun is marked 20ga 2 3/4", but the chambers measured short).

SO, on to my quesiton:
when the gunsmith who opened the chambers inspected the gun, he said to me it is a good gun for hunting but suggested I not shoot 'a ton of clays' with it, as the old guns are just not made to take this kind of use.

I'm curious, what kind of use can I realistically give this gun if I want to shoot a few rounds of clays with it every now and then. I shot a 100 round of clays with it today and had a lot of fun. Enjoyed it, but don't want to abuse the girl.
Posted By: Nitrah Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 02/28/21 11:50 PM
just my opinion, it is more important what shell/load you shoot than the qty. When I first got into doubles I traded a few LC's for an english boxlock. Because it was light I shot light loads, a lot of them. I think I averaged 5,000 a year for several years and saw absolutely no wear on that gun. Obviously if you put 20,000 rounds through it there will likely be wear on the lock up.
Mild 7/8 oz. loads. You can’t hurt it.
JR
Posted By: bls Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/01/21 03:23 AM
Good points... I am not about to go order a case of RSTs for this (that is, even if RSTs were available right now)>

I plan to stick with 7/8oz ..2 1/2Dram Eq. of Rem Gun Clubs, Federals at 7.5 or 8s. That will be the same for Woodcock, Grouse and Clays.
For the Pheasant season, it'll be a standard type hunting load (nothing crazy) and it wown't be more than 100 of those a year.
Posted By: ed good Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/01/21 11:22 AM
and if the wood cracks, just glue her up an keep on shootin...
Not so sure I agree with that approach, Eddie. I have 4 12 gauge L.C. Smiths, all graded and with ejectors and DT== Oldest is a 4E mfg. 1909, a pigeon grade made in 1911, a Ideal Longrange made in 1928, and a Ideal FWE made in 1945. I only shoot RST low velocity target loads in them- I have never shot a 3" or a steel load in my Longrange, nor do I ever plan too. The 4E is the main gun I use for SC's--28" Imp. Cyl & Mod. (sometimes the Pigeon, 28" Imp. Cyl. and Full) all have years of careful use, no cracks in the locks or grip areas-- If I were fortunate to own comparable London Bests-instead of these "Elsie"- I would also use RST exclusively in them as well. Pre-1913 Smiths have one other factor in their favor--Better American Walnut was available, once WW1 got rollin'-lotsa good crotch walnut in American timberlands got turned into rifle stocks and airplane propellers. RWTF
Pre-1913 Elsies had French walnut stocks, not American walnut, RWTF.
JR
Posted By: nca225 Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/01/21 07:16 PM
Use low pressure loads for all your shooting and that Elsie will outlast you. I think Elsies have an undeserved reputation on their quality. I have two, including my granddad’s 12GA. I’ve shot the sh!t out of them using low pressure loads and never had a problem. I think at one point, keith posted a thread showing what it took to get a set of Elsie barrels to fail. As I recall, it took a surprising amount of abuse, but I don’t recall the details. Maybe he’ll chime in on it. Your granddad’s 20 is a nice gun BTW.
Interesting--even the OO grades? The Pigeon Grade 12 I own has almost an ebony look to the wood, both buttstock and forearm, fine even grain. Would it be fair to assume that France and other walnut producing European Countries saw their consumption of fine Bastogne walnut going into rifle stocks, Broomhandled C96 Mausers, and propellors for Spads, Nieports, and Sopwith Camels, instead of Purdey, Boss et al.?? RWTF
Posted By: topgun Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/01/21 08:27 PM
"Interesting--even the OO grades?"

Yes according the pre-13 catalogs, the Grade OO gun was fitted with "English walnut stock; half pistol, checkered and well finished". In fact, and according to period catalogs, even the cheapest hammer gun model had an English walnut stock; but wood was obviously plain grained on lower end models. When the company changed their grades line-up in 1913 a decision was made to switch stock wood from English to the less expensive American black walnut.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/01/21 08:37 PM
RST loads tend to be some of the best loads for a Smith. Gun clubs not so much. If you can reload you can cut your box price in half and loads shells which your gun will handle for the next hundred years.

As to the Smith reputation it is what it is. They often crack behind the side plates. Is it a weak point in the design? Yes. Is it a design defect? No. The defect is people putting too heavy a load into a gun approaching 75-100 years. Wood get dry with age and tends to crack due to stress. Keep the stress down and cracks will be minimal.

500-700 moderate pressure shells a year should be nothing to worry about. 5-7000 might be another issue. Shoot your gun as a tribute to who owned it before you. Trust me I would like to think others will be shooting and enjoying my guns after I am gone. I might even leave them a few flats of proper loads behind for them to start.
There is quite a bit of information regarding Smith stock cracking here, and the prevention thereof
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784

After the sale of Hunter Arms to Marlin in 1945, the risk of cracks likely produced changes in design for the "L.C. Smith Improved Field Grade" - "L.C. Smith stocks have been re-designed for still greater strength, shaped to hold the frame solidly, with special attention to tight, sure mechanical action. All stocks of selected, seasoned walnut..."
There are pics comparing the wood thickness at the head of the stock (which is where cracks begin) on the FAQ

Please ask the specialist who repaired your stock if he glasbedded the head of the stock. If so, you should feel confident using loads for which the gun was designed. On introduction in 1907 the 20g hangtags specified 2 1/4 Dr.Eq. with 7/8 oz. shot (1155 fps); later 7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr.Eq. (1210 fps).
Though pressure and recoil MAY be correlated, it is recoil that cracks stocks.
Posted By: bls Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/01/21 10:28 PM
Drew H, thanks for taking the time to post this detailed info for me. Seeing it quantified helps:
On introduction in 1907 the 20g hangtags specified 2 1/4 Dr.Eq. with 7/8 oz. shot (1155 fps); later 7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr.Eq. (1210 fps).
Though pressure and recoil MAY be correlated, it is recoil that cracks stocks.
The shape of a sidelock's plate, in the rear, is a wedge. The better it is inletted the more the wedge effect can try to spread the wood apart in the rear. When there isn't a lot of wood contacting the action at the head it compresses easier. As it compresses, the wedge effect of the lock plates begins to force the wood in two opposite directions, eventually resulting in a crack. One thing that contributes to this rearward movement of the action "into" the buttstock is a loosening of the tang screw, or hand pin as the English call them. It is very important to check these and keep them snugged up, regularly.

I have a LCS 16 ga. FW that had been restocked, very expertly, IMO. I traded for it some 12 years ago, and it was crack free. I used it often for doves and crows, and some clays, and eventually cracks began to appear on each side immediately behind the lock plates. I caught it as they were just beginning. Jim Kelly stabilized them and did some "glassing" in the rear of the lock inlets, on each lock inlet. Nothing shows, and I believe it will outlast me now with no more cracking. OTOH, I have a 12 ga. LCS 3E that has original wood, has been shot a lot but taken good care of, and it remains crack free after well over 100 years. And, it was originally owned by a pigeon shooter who likely used stout loads in it.

Originally Posted by bls
Though pressure and recoil MAY be correlated, it is recoil that cracks stocks.
That is exactly right.

SRH
It probably was English walnut, Topgun. No real difference in iit and French, afaik...
JR
Posted By: topgun Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/02/21 02:13 AM
John, certainly no intention to contradict your post; I was simply quoting from the catalog. As far as I'm concerned English, French, Italian, etc. walnut is all the same stuff. As regards stock cracking on Smith guns, it seems to me that Smith guns with black walnut stocks are more prone to cracking than those with English walnut? I've no hard evidence one way or the other, my conclusion based solely on personal observation.
I agree with John and Tom, American walnut is not as good a stock as the European walnut on a side plated gun. I have examined many Syracuse L.C. Smiths and have never seen a crack behind the locks.
Posted By: Mark II Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/02/21 10:12 PM
While Smiths can and do crack, so do boxlock guns such as Parker and Fox. You just can't see them until you take the action off. The top tang pin and hand pin in a Smith are more of a recoil lug than most people realize. How many low grade Parkers have you seen with the flats behind the action checkered to hide the cross pins used in the repair. Or wood putty over the ends of the "stove bolt" used to hold the stock together. Fox used a piece of metal driven into the head of the stock to help prevent splitting. As for the OP shoot light loads in your gun as much as you want. If it develops issues with the stock fix them and carry on. When components become available again star reloading 3/4 oz loads. That load will break trap targets out to the 22=23 yard line with no problem. A 20 ga Smith gun is a joy to carry and will go on shooting for your lifetime with a bit of care and judicious thought to you loads. ENJOY it
Posted By: Bluestem Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/02/21 11:30 PM
The reason for Smith's tendency to crack behind the side plates is not news. McIntosh, Vicknair and others have described the issue well. The Pre-13 guns or later graded guns are not immune. The 1983 edition of Brophy's book shows an A2 with what looks like a poor attempt at repairing/hiding the crack (pgs. 55 and 164). The A1 on pgs. 63/64 is cracked. The No. 3 Grade gun on page 67 - cracked. The Post-13 Monogram Grade (p.95) is suspect. The Specialty Grade on p.105 is cracked. The Trap Grade on p.107 may be on its way. Small sample size, I know, but at least they didn't use them for the book jacket photos.
Originally Posted by Mark II
Fox used a piece of metal driven into the head of the stock to help prevent splitting.

They did indeed, on some guns. It is called a corrugated fastener, and they are still around today. I've never personally seen one in a Fox, but have in pictures.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/2PK-25-C...msclkid=43799c27679110e0e154fc19be30fbd9

SRH
Originally Posted by Bluestem
The reason for Smith's tendency to crack behind the side plates is not news.

Wasn't implying it was news, but I just didn't make the assumption that everyone who reads this forum has read McIntosh and Vicknair, or "others". They haven't. Many don't even know who they are.
Posted By: Bluestem Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/03/21 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
Originally Posted by Bluestem
The reason for Smith's tendency to crack behind the side plates is not news.

Wasn't implying it was news, but I just didn't make the assumption that everyone who reads this forum has read McIntosh and Vicknair, or "others". They haven't. Many don't even know who they are.

I didn't imply that you were implying anything. You may infer otherwise.
Originally Posted by Bluestem
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
Originally Posted by Bluestem
The reason for Smith's tendency to crack behind the side plates is not news.

Wasn't implying it was news, but I just didn't make the assumption that everyone who reads this forum has read McIntosh and Vicknair, or "others". They haven't. Many don't even know who they are.

I didn't imply that you were implying anything. You may infer otherwise.

Fair enough.

Best to you, SRH
Originally Posted by topgun
John, certainly no intention to contradict your post; I was simply quoting from the catalog.
I knew that, tg. 👍
JR
Posted By: keith Re: L.C. Smith for Clays? OK, or Sparingly? - 03/03/21 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Mark II
While Smiths can and do crack, so do boxlock guns such as Parker and Fox. You just can't see them until you take the action off. The top tang pin and hand pin in a Smith are more of a recoil lug than most people realize. How many low grade Parkers have you seen with the flats behind the action checkered to hide the cross pins used in the repair. Or wood putty over the ends of the "stove bolt" used to hold the stock together. Fox used a piece of metal driven into the head of the stock to help prevent splitting. As for the OP shoot light loads in your gun as much as you want. If it develops issues with the stock fix them and carry on. When components become available again star reloading 3/4 oz loads. That load will break trap targets out to the 22=23 yard line with no problem. A 20 ga Smith gun is a joy to carry and will go on shooting for your lifetime with a bit of care and judicious thought to you loads. ENJOY it

Remington is another double that tends to split by design. But strangely, ALL Remingtons do not split, just as ALL Parkers, L.C. Smiths, Foxes, etc. do not split. In addition to the loads that have been used in them being a cause of splitting, I believe that a big reason is due to the strength of individual stocks. No two stocks will have identical grain, and some are just more prone to splitting than others due to some inherent weakness in the stock blank. That helps explain why some don't split despite heavy use with heavy loads, while others split with lighter upland or target loads. Other factors include oil soaking, age, loose stock screws, and seasonal movements due to humidity.

Some stock designs have more of a built-in safety factor too. Every time I see an L.C. Smith stock removed, I am amazed that they don't all crack into splinters, given the small cross sectional area, and the thin fragile sections. It's a testament to the overall strength of walnut, and one reason why walnut has been the number one wood of choice for gun-makers for centuries.
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