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Posted By: FallCreekFan Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/27/21 07:21 PM
I see that the case of Rhode Island citizen Edward Caniglia who had his home searched in 2015 without a warrant and his two lawfully owned firearms confiscated has reached the Supreme Court. I found the details of the case in the Rhode Island ACLU’s “friend of the court” brief (aclu.org) that they filed in support of Mr. Caniglia. What I am shocked about is that apparently the Biden Administration has also filed a brief but in support of the warrantless search and seizure and is asking the court to make this a precedent so that any American home can be entered, searched and lawfully owned firearms taken.

I know that we have attorneys who are members of this forum. I wonder if they could tell us if this is correct regarding the administration’s intentions?
I'm not a lawyer anymore, retired five years ago, but my experience is the law is pretty much what the elected government says it is. Lord help us!...Geo
Posted By: bushveld Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/27/21 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by FallCreekFan
I see that the case of Rhode Island citizen Edward Caniglia who had his home searched in 2015 without a warrant and his two lawfully owned firearms confiscated has reached the Supreme Court. I found the details of the case in the Rhode Island ACLU’s “friend of the court” brief (aclu.org) that they filed in support of Mr. Caniglia. What I am shocked about is that apparently the Biden Administration has also filed a brief but in support of the warrantless search and seizure and is asking the court to make this a precedent so that any American home can be entered, searched and lawfully owned firearms taken.

I know that we have attorneys who are members of this forum. I wonder if they could tell us if this is correct regarding the administration’s intentions?

Seems to me that this is a case about when can police enter a home without a warrant. The weapon could have just as easily been a butcher knife. Here is an account of it from the press---

"Just what sort of emergency allows police to enter your home without a warrant? That was the question before the U.S. Supreme Court Wednesday. The court's imagination seemed endless, as the justices presented hypotheticals that involved rescuing everything from screaming babies to cats in a tree to a water-logged Van Gogh painting.

The actual case before the court involved a heated argument between a long-married couple, Edward and Kim Caniglia. He brought out a gun and told her to shoot him to put him out of his "misery." Then after he left the house in a huff, she hid the gun, and spent the night in a motel. The next morning, unable to reach her husband, she asked police to escort her home because was afraid he might have harmed himself.

Police found the husband on the front porch, and sent him for a psychological evaluation. Later that day, doctors concluded he was not a threat to himself or others and released him. In the meantime, police had confiscated his guns and ammunition. So he sued, alleging an illegal seizure and search of his home."
Posted By: Dan S. W. Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/27/21 08:26 PM
Would have to read both sides' briefs. The ACLU takes some pretty wonky positions. They were defending the KKK down here regarding sponsoring a segment of a highway. That case was mooted out, I believe, when the Georgia Dept of Transportation cancelled the program. You have to bear in mind a brief is just an argument, sometimes they are well supported, but many times they are pretty flimsy. Pretty hard to tell without a deep legal dive though including reading all of the underlying cases and statutes.
Right or wrong, in a domestic dispute situation, HE WILL LOSE.

Sorry to pop any bubbles.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: nca225 Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/27/21 09:22 PM
Ted is right on that. "Domestic Violence" is the greater vehicle ever to disabuse your all your possessions. And it doesn't have to be criminal in nature. Protective orders come down on the thinnest of evidence, since it is by a civil standard, and then lifetime loss of 2nd amendment rights. It is not right, but there is a problem with DV.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/27/21 09:27 PM
I think the case should hinge on whether there was a bona fide immediate danger life or limb, which, in his absence doesn't seem to be. The police's duty to return the guns is a different question and the Doctor's statement seems to be against them. If the wife took out an "Order of Protection", under "Lautenberg", he wouldn't pass a background check. I didn't see that in the case. I am not a Lawyer and never played one on TV.
Mike
Posted By: keith Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/28/21 04:23 AM
I am not a lawyer, but you do not have to be a lawyer to know that the Biden administration brief in support of warrantless searches and unlawful seizures of legally held firearms is wrong and Unconstitutional.

It also comes as no surprise. Joe Biden is a devout life-long anti-gun Democrat. He has more respect for illegal immigrants than he does for legal citizens who own firearms. It will be interesting to see which SCOTUS Justices rule against the Constitution.

There are a lot of unanswered questions here though. Did the wife, as co-owner of the house, give the police permission to search and remove the guns? If not, at very least, they should not have entered and removed property without prior notice from the doctor that he was a danger to himself or others. And even that scenario is problematic, because there are anti-gun doctors who believe that anyone with a gun is a danger to society. That is always funny since there are far more people killed by medical mistakes than firearms.
Posted By: Chantry Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/28/21 02:33 PM
I'm not an attorney

Having said that, the initial seizure of the firearms was probably legal under exigent circumstances, especially since the plaintiff was taken to the hospital for the psych evaluation to determine if he was a threat to himself or others. However once he was deemed not be a threat, the police, IN THEORY, were required to return the firearms. Whether the police continued to hold the firearms while they considered filing criminal charges is not mentioned and I don't know if that would be legal or how long the police could hold the firearms under those conditions.

In my cynical opinion, don't hold much hope for some huge pro-gun decision. The Supreme Court will almost certainly tailor their decision on the most narrow interpretation possible, not because it is a 2nd or 4th Amendment issue, but because the Supreme Court dislikes making decisions that have a sweeping effect on U.S. law.

On edit: There is at least once news story that states the wife consented to the search of the house and the seizure of the firearms. Given the poor state of reporting in general, combined with a reporter who probably unfamiliar with the details of the law, I suspect this case is much more complicated than it is being portrayed as in the press.
Posted By: craigd Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/28/21 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by nca225
Ted is right on that. "Domestic Violence" is the greater vehicle ever to disabuse your all your possessions. And it doesn't have to be criminal in nature. Protective orders come down on the thinnest of evidence, since it is by a civil standard, and then lifetime loss of 2nd amendment rights. It is not right, but there is a problem with DV.
Hmmm, a voice of reason, common ground, my heart could follow this lead anywhere. Thrifty likey!
Once the police come to your house due to a complaint, and firearms are confiscated, I know of no specific time frame a police department is required to adhere to for the return of the goods.

The case is I am familiar with around here, essentially guarantee three things.

Poor storage, Poor handling with the expectation of damage, and considerable delays in their return.

My advice for most people would be to keep a cool head, keep your guns in the safe, and then when she reaches for the phone make sure all your shit is locked up.

Those of you who are already crazy, obviously won’t pay heed to any of that.
I did some more searching and found this Forbes article on the case and the arguments.
Justice Sotomayor's comments seem to strike to the heart of the issue.
She is also quoted as saying the police did not attempt “...to secure consent from the wife ...”


"Yet during oral argument on Wednesday, the justices were more focused on crafting abstract hypotheticals than analyzing the case’s actual facts, a point not lost on Justice Sonia Sotomayor. “I think what everyone has forgotten here is that, at least in this situation, there was no immediate danger to the person threatening suicide and no immediate danger to the wife because the suicide person was removed to a hospital,” the justice noted.

Nevertheless, police “decided on their own to go in and seize the gun.” Sotomayor also wondered if the officers could “have gone into the house and taken not just the gun but any bat, knife, anything else that in their judgment this man could have used to commit suicide?”

As she recounted, the case involved not one, but two, types of seizures: forcing Edward to go to the hospital and then taking his guns. When police “removed this gentleman and [took] him to the hospital,” Sotomayor explained, “that’s a seizure, because they had reason to believe that he was threatening suicide.” In Sotomayor’s view, that was “very much an exigent circumstance,” i.e. an emergency situation long exempt from the Fourth Amendment's warrant requirement.

But Sotomayor was less sympathetic toward the officers’ second seizure. “Missing here,” she noted, “is the next step, which is going into the home without attempting to secure consent from the wife and seizing the gun and then keeping it indefinitely until a lawsuit is filed.”

Her comments hinted at a way for the Supreme Court to still allow police to perform wellness checks (which were repeatedly raised during oral argument) when there isn’t time to get a warrant, but without giving officials broad authority to break into homes and conduct warrantless seizures. “When we permit police to search and seize without some standard, we run the risk of situations like this one repeating themselves,” Sotomayor remarked."


Here's a link to the entire article

https://apple.news/A81BgwalJTSaKadONiHEtOw
Posted By: Chantry Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/28/21 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by FallCreekFan
I did some more searching and found this Forbes article on the case and the arguments.
Justice Sotomayor's comments seem to strike to the heart of the issue.
BTW the wife did not give consent.
https://apple.news/A81BgwalJTSaKadONiHEtOw

Depends on which story you read: "Officers instead seized the guns and ammunition after his wife showed him where they were. She was told, she said, that her husband had agreed to the seizure. Caniglia was released from the hospital the same day." that certainly seems to imply consent, although it is likely the wife was not familiar enough with the law to recognize she could refuse the search.

Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/c...court-heard-about-it-in-2021/ar-BB1eVxeQ
I once served as executor of the Will of a neighbor. When she died at home of cancer the police "investigated" and seized her .38 pistol out the drawer to her bedside table along with several boxes of ammo. She had specifically left the pistol to a friend of hers so I had to extricate the firearm from the local police department. They had no reason to take it other than an officer wanted it, so I got it and the ammo back and delivered the bequest. Did you ever wonder how policeman obtain the "throw down" guns they carry? I wonder how many guns get taken off the street that way?...Geo
Yes, Chantry. I’ll adjust that. Thanks.
The removal of historical monuments! The removal or banning of books! And Gestapo tactics our four fathers are spinning in their graves.

Let’s hope things don’t keep going down this path of prediction
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/28/21 05:30 PM
After reading the Forbes article I believe the court sees the serious implication of unnecessary warrantless search and seizure. Where does such authority stop, they ask? They seem to be very concerned about preserving the fourth amendment and not expanding it. Bet they almost unanimously rule against the government.
Posted By: craigd Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/28/21 06:09 PM
They like to think they have momentum. If the admin can print money, they can print fed warrants.
Posted By: nca225 Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/29/21 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by craigd
Originally Posted by nca225
Ted is right on that. "Domestic Violence" is the greater vehicle ever to disabuse your all your possessions. And it doesn't have to be criminal in nature. Protective orders come down on the thinnest of evidence, since it is by a civil standard, and then lifetime loss of 2nd amendment rights. It is not right, but there is a problem with DV.
Hmmm, a voice of reason, common ground, my heart could follow this lead anywhere. Thrifty likey!

Hey craig, is the ground getting real cold around you? Its getting real cold around here, along the lines of hell freezing over...
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/29/21 06:39 PM
If they rule the fourth is no longer valid can the second and first be far behind? I do not want my government being able to pick which constitutional amendments have lapsed due to time. Many want to claim the second has. Are they now going to add the fourth, first and fifth? Slippery slope.
Posted By: nca225 Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/29/21 08:29 PM
This is what happens then the "law and order" pendulum swings!
Posted By: craigd Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/29/21 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by nca225
This is what happens then the "law and order" pendulum swings!
Spot on, and it dovetails nicely with things like, hey, I have this great little bird dog that loves to be out in the grouse woods.
Posted By: mc Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/30/21 12:18 AM
I don't think there is supposed to be a pendulum swing with regards to law and order it's supposed to be steady state, not big bang.
Originally Posted by mc
I don't think there is supposed to be a pendulum swing with regards to law and order it's supposed to be steady state, not big bang.

Agreed, but Janet Reno (and Biden, it seems) never paid any attention to that. People like her/them are not our "fellow Americans". They are enemies of freedom and independence.
Posted By: JDH Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/30/21 12:37 AM
The living document is being strangled.
Posted By: mc Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/30/21 01:38 AM
And now is when we put our money where your mouth is contribute to local state and national 2nd ammendment organizations.because we can make a difference.
Posted By: keith Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/30/21 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by nca225
This is what happens then the "law and order" pendulum swings!

The Law and Order certainly is swinging in a different and perverse direction.

We didn't see Trump attempting to infringe upon the 2nd Amendment by attempting to ban firearms and ammunition...

We didn't see Trump attempting to silence 1st Amendment political speech through censorship and sham impeachment trials...

We didn't see Trump supporting anti-4th Amendment illegal search and seizure of personal property...

We didn't see Trump violate the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act by providing preferential treatment based upon race and gender, nor attempt to create new genders out of thin air.

Nor did we see Trump opening our southern border to unfettered illegal immigration.

What we are witnessing is the real insurrection, the overthrow of our Constitution and the rule of law. Brought to you by anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats. Who could've' saw this coming???
Posted By: DAM16SXS Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 03:31 PM
There is just one reason, and one reason alone, that they want to outlaw and seize weapons THEY call "assault weapons" and that is that they don't want American citizens to be as well armed as those who would make us "subjects" rather than the citizens we are. They lie when they say we don't need them.... "Trust us, we're the government."
Posted By: pamtnman Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 04:15 PM
The war on private ownership of firearms is well under way. The US Supreme Court is dominated by a five-member liberal group that includes the Chief Justice. The real mistake is waiting for this decision from a part of federal government that is equally as corrupted and dysfunctional as the other two. The federal government has waged an all out war against the citizenry, a rebellion of the elites against the masses. The federal government is very close to implementing a full bore tyranny over all of us. All cultural and constitutional norms are being heaved overboard. All that remains between this tyranny and freedom is the armed citizen. Whether or not we assert that beyond a few venues is up in the air.
Originally Posted by pamtnman
The war on private ownership of firearms is well under way. The US Supreme Court is dominated by a five-member liberal group that includes the Chief Justice. The real mistake is waiting for this decision from a part of federal government that is equally as corrupted and dysfunctional as the other two. The federal government has waged an all out war against the citizenry, a rebellion of the elites against the masses. The federal government is very close to implementing a full bore tyranny over all of us. All cultural and constitutional norms are being heaved overboard. All that remains between this tyranny and freedom is the armed citizen. Whether or not we assert that beyond a few venues is up in the air.

SCOTUS dominated by liberals? WTF alternate universe do you live in? That reads as tho you've been living is a cave and and listening to Qmoron imaginary news on your crystal radio. All the while completely ignoring the recently departed cause of the degradation of cultural and constitutional norms by astounding lies and treason!

Thanks for being a vocal nutcase that the anti-gunners love to point at
Posted By: nca225 Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Wonko the Sane
Originally Posted by pamtnman
The war on private ownership of firearms is well under way. The US Supreme Court is dominated by a five-member liberal group that includes the Chief Justice. The real mistake is waiting for this decision from a part of federal government that is equally as corrupted and dysfunctional as the other two. The federal government has waged an all out war against the citizenry, a rebellion of the elites against the masses. The federal government is very close to implementing a full bore tyranny over all of us. All cultural and constitutional norms are being heaved overboard. All that remains between this tyranny and freedom is the armed citizen. Whether or not we assert that beyond a few venues is up in the air.

SCOTUS dominated by liberals? WTF alternate universe do you live in? That reads as tho you've been living is a cave and and listening to Qmoron imaginary news on your crystal radio. All the while completely ignoring the recently departed cause of the degradation of cultural and constitutional norms by astounding lies and treason!

Thanks for being a vocal nutcase that the anti-gunners love to point at


AMEN.
Posted By: keith Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Wonko the Sane
Thanks for being a vocal nutcase that the anti-gunners love to point at

If anyone eould know what the Liberal Democrat anti-gunners love to point at Dr. Wanker, it would be you....

You support them and vote for them! And I love pointing at the gun owners who are foolish enough to vote for anti-gunners.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 06:53 PM
I wonder what the Left thinks is going to happen? They pass an assault weapon ban and the guns all go away. They might consider that passing a law, after the fact (as in ownership of a legal gun) is barred by the Constitution. Might not matter in their minds. But if that is the case do they expect every owner to bring them in and just give them to the government? Are they going to buy them back at real value? If there are 10 million assault weapons and 50% turn them in, which I expect is ten times the number who will, what is their plan for the other 5 million? Arrest, house to house search, mass internment’s?

Courts are hard to predict but for now this court should be pro-constitution. And that’s all we can ask for. That and a little sanity.
Posted By: pamtnman Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 07:07 PM
KY Jon,
The left is gambling that most Americans will fold, and that the few who stand their ground will be eliminated. Everything we do to stand our ground will be construed as some sort of illegal assembly, threatening, insurrection etc. The GOP is asleep at the wheel, the left is playing for all the marbles. And honestly they have been correct about what to expect each step along the way. There’s been very little resistance to anything they’ve done. The rule of law is over and yet even the most independent governors talk about staying “within the law.” When the left follows no laws at all.
Posted By: nca225 Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by KY Jon
I wonder what the Left thinks is going to happen? They pass an assault weapon ban and the guns all go away. They might consider that passing a law, after the fact (as in ownership of a legal gun) is barred by the Constitution. Might not matter in their minds. But if that is the case do they expect every owner to bring them in and just give them to the government? Are they going to buy them back at real value? If there are 10 million assault weapons and 50% turn them in, which I expect is ten times the number who will, what is their plan for the other 5 million? Arrest, house to house search, mass internment’s?

Courts are hard to predict but for now this court should be pro-constitution. And that’s all we can ask for. That and a little sanity.

I would remind you John of your well thought out posts on the "way too close to home thread" about this. The gun control, when the rubber hits the road, has to deal with the realities on the ground.

I think the best they can hope to achieve, in the best circumstances, is to cease new production of certain firearms for civilian purchase, limit the capacity the newly produced magazines for civilian purchase, grandfather the already existing and owned targeted firearms and magazines tot he current possessor and prevent all future transfers of the grandfathered firearms, except to the government for buyback purposes. Whatever they define as an "assault weapon" can no longer be transferred in any other way.

Like it or not, this probably would pass Constitutional muster.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 07:24 PM
Gun owners are not most Americans in the sense they will just fold. If the left overplays this, which I fully spect them to do, then ugly is not a strong enough word for it. The numbers are completely against them. In the 10 million assault gun owners I doubt you will find a less inclined group to turn in their guns. Not going to happen.
Posted By: pamtnman Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 07:33 PM
“Ugly” works great for me. It could be the big re-set away from government overreach free American citizens deserve.
The first American to resist may lose his/her life. Maybe some more. If so they will become martyrs, and we all know what happens to a cause in the wake of martyrdom. My mind is made up already. I am 69 years old, I've had a full and wonderful life, my family will be financially secure without me, and I do not fear death. I fear living in fear much more. My wife and I, my pastor and I, have discussed this. As I have said before, I believe that having your mind made up and having a plan is the only way to get through it when the wolf is at your door. It's very late to make a decision and create a mindset when you hear the howl. And, getting through it may not mean surviving physically. It may mean dying with honor, and not shame. But, there are things that are more important than life. Freedom and liberty are a couple that quickly come to mind.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants." (my emphasis). Thomas Jefferson
Posted By: ithaca1 Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 10:40 PM
Amen to that S Hills!
Im a couple of years younger but of like mind.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 11:06 PM
There is a lesson in what happened in Germany, after WW2( at least in the American sector). The Germans were required to turn all guns in to the authorities , under penalty of death. When I went there 26 years later, pre WW2 guns were all over, in fact I have a couple now. If a death penalty wouldn't make people turn them all in, will a couple year prison term ? Maybe some will be.
Mike
Posted By: Mark II Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 03/31/21 11:52 PM
I know a guy hat grew up in Greece. He had come to the states , joined the Army and became a US citizen. He said when the Greek Gov't came to collect automatic weapons after the war some were turned in. As the convoy left the village at dusk, all the hills surrounding the village were lit up by tracers from the stuff they didn't turn in. When the military will turn on citizens it's going to be over.
Maybe over for life as we now know it, but not necessarily for life in the aftermath .......... which may actually become a new beginning. If we submit, then I agree. It's going to be over.
Posted By: pamtnman Re: Seizure of firearms without a warrant - 04/01/21 12:02 AM
And this is why the Biden criminal gang is moving so very fast on all of these fronts. America now has a Secretary of Defense who has publicly declared open war on the following people in the US Military: Christians, white conservatives, Republicans. His goal is to turn the US Military into Black Lives Matter, essentially a BLM militia better armed than they are now. It is why they are aggressively drumming out the patriots and indoctrinating the young people to turn against the citizenry. They will use some flimsy pretext to declare martial law and then turn the military against us. America is in such severe trouble I doubt many people want to believe it, let alone whether they already understand it, or not. While I believed Trump should have stayed in office and fought back, it was discouraging to have the two top generals openly state their opposition to having the military get involved in American elections in early December. Basically bypassing the commander in chief and just stating for the record what they would and would not do. To me, that was illegal insubordination, openly politicking, and worthy of a court martial and execution by firing squad at dawn, but Trump had become so used to daily insubordination that I think he just shrugged his shoulders and said "What can I do?"
We are truly f'd. It is terrifying and enraging all at once.
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