Curious. Does anyone believe this Manufrance 12 ga. actually has 30" barrels? If so it's very unusual. (they look to be standard French 27 1/2" - 65 cm - to me).

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ide-by-side-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101618078



"Canon Frette" (classic MF "sleeved" barrel). Proofed in-house. Charge Normal = 2 1/2" chambers. Crappy engraving with pitting...no hint of what model. SN not mentioned.


I must say these late 1920's-1930's MF marks are not so familiar - FAB500 has helped:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Main=39635&Number=595336#Post595336
From 1926 MF no longer used the Saint-Etienne proof house; They proofed their arms internally. The "Crowned PT" stamp, as well as the "foudre" stamp replaced them (Saint-Étienne proof house stamps) (see photo).

À partir de 1926, la MF ne passe plus par le banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne et éprouve ses armes en interne. Le poinçon PT couronné, ainsi que le poinçon foudre sont remplacés (voir photo).

Makes one wonder how they were able to circumvent the proofhouse. Maybe based on the volume of guns they made??

I don’t believe proof was actually compulsory in France. However, and this is important, IT MAY AS WELL HAVE BEEN.

Every catalog makes mention of proof, and gunmakers paid for varying levels of proof on their wares. There was a major overhaul of the rules of proof in 1923. To a very large degree, most of the gunmakers in France were mom and pop shops, and proofing themselves would not have been an option. Manufrance could sell you a gun, a case, a bicycle or a car to carry it in, a tent to use at your hunting camp, hunting clothes, and a sewing machine to repair them. And lots of other household items.

They were huge.

Best,
Ted

Let's repost what FAB500 had to say about Manufrance proofing their own guns.....the proof stamps are in this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Main=39635&Number=595336#Post595336

I can't recall ever having seen the last group of proofmarks (with the arrows) in FAB500's post. And I've owned several Manufrance guns. Could be that none of mine (or others I looked at) fell within that time period.

The barrels in the picture are over 2x the length of pull. They look longish to me.

Salut Argo,
Ce Robust est un modèle n°5 fabriqué de 1913 à 1924. Il a été éprouvé avec l'ancienne épreuve de St Étienne antérieure à 1924.
En France, l'épreuve des armes a été obligatoire à partir de 1960.

Merci comme d'habitude Fab:

Translation: "This Robust is a model 5 made from 1913 to 1924. It was proofed with the old St. Étienne proof stamp used prior to 1924. In France, proofing of arms was obligatory from 1960 (probably 1860?)."

So I am wrong about it having been proofed in-house. In my defense, the proof marks were not in the ad; only the Manufrance trademark was visible.

I am pretty sure he is right on with the 1960 date for obligatory proof.

Best,
Ted

You guys know well. I was just remembering Didier-Devet's report on the 1878 Paris Universelle where he complained about Paris using unproved Belgian barrels which St. Etienne had to proof theirs. The law is published in the article reposted per below: For history here is a letter written by Didier Drevet to the local Saint-Etienne Newspaper on Nov 28, 1878
http://www.memoireetactualite.org/presse/42LEREPUBLIC/PDF/1878/42LEREPUBLIC-18781128-P-0002.pdf




Here is a rough translation of this article. - M. DD essentially advocates upgrading the tool and dies of Saint-Etienne and complain rightly about the Paris gun makers who are not abiding by the proof-laws while be favored by the Exposition:

Here is the report of M. Didier-Drevet, master barrel maker, sent by his colleagues to the universal Exposition:

Monsieur the Editor: As barrel-maker I was a part of the delegation of gun-maker workers who were sent to Paris last October.

That delegation, you will recall, was designated by the gun makers following a meeting organized by the workers themselves at the invitation of the representative for the Loire.

It is under these circumstances that I went to the 1978 Exposition and I consider that it is my obligation to communicate to my constituents some observations that I can recall about the part of arms making with which I'm most familiar, the barrels.

I regret that the passage of time and the difficulty of visiting all the displays does not allow me to analyze in detail all the products of each exposition, but I have seen enough for me to form an informed opinion of the current state of the fabrication of barrels in each country represented at the exposition.

I cannot speak for all the barrel makers of St-Etienne to the Stephanois, each of whom whom knows what it takes to make something work.

It is sufficient for me to state that we were represented by three companies who have an old and excellent reputation and which this exposition was one of the most important and one which is a judgment of the value of their arms from the the point of view of the barrel. However, if they are behind in hunting products, they seem in contrast to be very advanced in combat barrel making.

Their displays confirm that their carbine barrels are made in an irreproachable manner.

Besides the specimens which accompanied the barrels for showing the diverse phases of barrel making, the American barrel makers did not show a method of drilling useful for our manufacturers. It would be too long and too arduous.

The barrel is made in the middle of a steel sleeve 25-30 centimeters long. This sleeve is founded in a hollow manner to avoid losing material, it is then forged on a single spindle chuck machine in order to rationalize and equalize the surfaces and then stretched on the interior and exterior on a rolling machine in different passes in a way to obtain the desired length and at the same time in a conical form which is right for forming a barrel.

This has shown to have, according to me, two marked advantages: it involves a great economy of material and of machining; and stamping metal by the double action of the rolling machine and of the single spindle chuck mandrel machine gives it a toughness and a resistance to all tests.

It is possible that the mandrel rolling presents some practical difficulties, but it doesn't seem to me probable that these difficulties could outweigh the advantages that one finds by the process, such as the economy of material used, of hand work and of tooling, and of the quality of the metal.

It would be desirable if our large factories in the basin of the Loire, which have such powerful means, might try this process of fabrication; They are able certainly with little study and of perseverance to produce at a very good price barrels for war and barrels for hunting. They are enriching therefore the local industry by a new branch of production and they give to the Stephanoise gun-making industry the means to reconquer the export market which they lost because of not being able to produce marketable barrels.

English exports: I have noted with surprise that the English barrel makers do not have special expositions such as other factories of Europe. I cannot explain their abstention; in any case I can judge their knowledge and inspect the barrels exhibited in the display windows of the manufacturers.

Their barrels are not distinguished by a variety of types. Their barrels are in general of damascus of a large design of which the appearance is not at all seductive. They are besides strong and well made, well turned and certainly well polished; but there are some qualities of care owing to which one obtains them everywhere and puts up the price.

One sees in their display cases some rifles costing 770 Fr of which the barrels are ordinary damascus and seem according to all reports to resemble those being used on St-Etienne rifles costing 300 fr.

Whatever the demand that one professes in certain circles for English long-guns. I do not see that that preference is justified by the value of the barrels and I maintain that our stephanois barrel makers are capable of producing a better set of barrels as perfect in the execution and more appealing.

Those who have a predilection for English manufacture do not realize the weight of the gun, and, how that question of weight has great importance for the barrel maker. A variance of several fractions of grammes changes all the conditions for execution. In order to make a barrel at the same time light, solid and well, one must use a fine art, taking care and precautions which repeat themselves on each operation, and, more, running the risk of the tasks which are larger the lighter the piece.

Currently all the barrels that are being ordered from Saint Etienne in caliber 12 are measured in a weight of 15 or 16 grams while in England they tolerate up to two kilos.

It is the style in France in certain circles to see with rose colors glasses everything which comes from England. It is a very bad habit which will pass like many others.

Exposition Belgian: I have not analyzed the exposition of M. Leopold Bernard. This house is known throughout the world and It's necessary to agree that it is successfully supporting its old reputation. However, when one compares this work with that of St-Etienne, one quickly recognizes that the gap is of little importance; that in reality the contrast which exists between the two expositions is more about the abundance of products and the richness of the display than in the superiority of execution. The only thing missing from our body of barrel work, which would equal that of Paris, is some additional installations; of better rolling mills, better made and more appropriate to the work of the barrel making, ovens to braze and polishers. Our methods of production are far too primative and our products suffer from the lack of means; but it is not a question of organization which might be solve this, and allow us to be able to deliver our production across the board.

For everything which touches the area of the barrel making, our infrastructure possesses all the elements; our forges, our dressers without boasting one can say have little comparison in the whole world.

Without wanting to diminish the merits of the house of Leopold Bernard, one must recognize that he is operating at an advantage because of his location.

For a long time his manufactures were encourgesd and supported by the Parisian gunmakers, who needed to have a prestigious barrel from Paris in order to have the rest of the gun which was made abroad accepted.

It's true that the beautiful spirt of self-pride was close to being extinguished (was quickly fading away) because most of the long guns which I was given to look at in the display cases of the Parisian exposition were mounted with Belgian barrels and even barrels that were decidedly mediocre.

I visited in detail two of the display cases. I will abstain from citing the name of the two exhibiters, but I picked up ours and the brand names of the barrels and I could, if necessary, justify what i'm going to say in advance.

In spite of the long guns which were in the two display cases, I only found one barrel legally proof-marked and it was from Liege.

All the others were without a brand name, and of such of those I figure that six of the barrels were Belgian made.

It's true to say that there is not a proof house in Paris. The government has not judged it necessary to establish one because there is not a single maker of barrels in Paris. It is this state of affairs which facilitates fraud and which I brought to the attention of the Paris Exposition. One can bring in barrels from Liege which have not been proofed; One can decorate them with a proper mark/name and one can then babtise them as Paris barrels. I know very well that M. Leopold Bernard, who is careful about his reputation and who, decidedly sells very expensive products, but without submitting his barrels to a serious proof test.

But as for the gun makers who buy these barrels without a proof mark abroad why would they do it differently?

In any case it's not legal neither for one method or another. There cannot be two laws in France, one for Paris, the other for St-Etienne.

Here is the decree of 22 April 1868 applied to us.

The decree says:

"The barrel makers, merchants and workers cannot sell any barrel without it having been proofed and stamped by the accepted proof mark, a fine of 330 fr for the first time and a penalty of double that for each case after and the confiscation of the barrels which are put on sale."

The terms of the law are clear. How then can one allow to be spread out in the middle of the Exposition products which would be seized if they were in our city, at the frontier as always, by agents richly rewarded to make the law respected?

The jury of the Exposition could recompense, with their eyes closed, the gun-makers of Paris and shower gold medals on these barrels breaking the proof house decree. But the government cannot have two weights and two measures.

It is not admissible that the Stephanoise barrel makers are stringent in their proofing when their competition can spare the allowance and the risks that they bring.

It is sufficient to signal this state of affairs to the Government so that the law will apply everywhere. And in closing I recall, in conclusion, that the Americans and the English do not have special expositions for barrel makers, that the Belgians don't produce anything but mediocre products and that Paris and Saint-Etienne alone are left standing

.....Our production of die cast tooling involves every facet of barrel production and in the near future, will surely be top ranked.

.....I have the honor, sir editor, to be your devoted constituent.

Didier Drevet
Master barrel maker, member of the com-
mission for oversight of the proof-
house of Saint-Etienne.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WlfexKCej_G1SHzCULNTrWmoJlRvbpaF/view?usp=drivesdk

Journal Officiel du 14/01/1960, page 439
Décret n° 60-12 du 12 janvier 1960

22 April 1868 décret? Qu'est que ce?

Je pense qu'il y a une légère méprise.
Argo, tu parles de l'épreuve des canons finis, alors que je parle de l'épreuve des armes finies. Ce sont deux épreuves différentes.

Ah, vous avez raison! Oui, je parle de l'épreuve des canons finis.

Translation: Fab500 noticed that I was discussing proofing of finished barrels which goes back a long way; while he was referring to proofing of finished guns in their entirety.

2 X length of pull on a normal French gun equals about 26 1/2". We'll see whether the buyer has an accurate yardstick. 30" barrels would be unusual unless they were re-sleeved.

Standard French SxS barrel was 65 cm = 27 1/2". I would think this Robust is of that length.

There is this Didier Drevet shotgun. SN 5275: dated 1887, a complete gun, chambered for 75mm (Black Powder) which had 30" Damascus barrels and was for sale for 750 Euros - I am really attracted to that particular Stephanois gun which I find totally elegant in its quiet simplicity.

The French did build some longer barreled guns. I have a 30 inch Darne P-19 in 12 gauge is pre-WWII. It came home as a war trophy.

Not sure where to put this, but OK you Stéphanoise Aficionados, a fella over @ Shotgunworld needs an ID:






I can move the inquiry if need be.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

that gun does offer some challenges, it would be useful if owner could post photos of the tubes in front of the flats, and of the "watertable" (i know that term irks some...)

it starts out quite normally;
cal 16 normal = 65mm chambers
demi-choke on right = half choke - which to the french means 25-30 thou
choke on left = full choke - which means a bunch - 40-45 thou
arme finie = proved in finished state
fabrication mecanique / canon frette = the mono-block barrel knitting of manufrance.... as evidenced by the obvious step at the front of the monoblock, where the tubes insert.
acier = steel - but here without any of the superlatives the french favor....which signals that it is a lower grade gun.

but here it takes a twist;
epreuve = single proof
pression850kilos = single proof - at the manufrance in-house facility
arrow thru target over PT = single proof, using powder T - again at the manufrance factory

fab500 gives us a very useful entry from a french text about manufrance that helps answer numerous questions... https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Main=39635&Number=595336#Post595336
after 1926 manufrance ceased using the customary saint etienne proof house, and ran their wares through an in-house facility.
one arrow thru target = 850kilos = single proof
two arrows thru targets = 1100kilos = double proof
three arrows thru targets = 1300kilos = triple proof

but these barrel flats lack two markings that manufrance guns always carry - "always" is kinda like "never" - it's a tricky word....
look back at the gun that started this thread; on the flats nearest the breech there's a mark centered under each chamber (and oriented parallel to the bores instead of perpendicular)....the crossed cannons bracketed by M & F, and the circled MF trade mark.

those marks are conspicuous in their absence - everything about this gun says field grade manufrance Robust - built after 1926 - maybe pre-war, maybe post-war. the fact they are absent leads me to the assumption that the gun was built and proofed by manufrance - in the finished state - but wholesaled to someone else, to be sold in france - but without proprietary markings by manufrance.

best regards,
tom

Late to the party but excellent analysis Tom. It sure appears to be a Robust. Would like to know the model of the gun. Gene

The current custodian guesses it to be a Modell Nr. 222??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Argo, your math is a bit off.

65 cm is 25.6 inches
70 cm is roughly 27.5 inches and
75 cm is 29.52 inches.

My Ideal has 75 cm barrels. Not as common as 70 cm barrels but not rare either.

raimey:
model numbers on robusts can show up in three different places;

clearly marked on the bottom metal, usually in conjunction with "Robust" (but if there are no manufrance identification marks accompanying the proofs, i would doubt that marking to be present)

stamped onto the bottom of the plume (rib) somewhere forward of the barrel flats

and on pretty late guns (?) marked on the top strap, concealed beneath the lever.

if it is marked 222, then according to charts found here in the french documents, it's a post-war gun - production from 1946 until 1963.

best regards,
tom

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=346644

The standard l.o.p. on French guns is 13 1/4"? That would be 1" shy of the standard of the day for most makers.
JR

So, a Manufrance Robust Modell Nr. 202?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Reposting these:

Fab500 looks to believe the above gun in question is Billwolfe's gun from 2013. Merci, Fab.

Salut Argo44,
J'ai mis le lien ci-dessus, car je pense que le modèle d'ellenbr est un Robust 202 de la période 1931/1939.

merci beaucoup. From the few images, another authority guesses it to be a Modell Nr. 214. Awaiting more images / data.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I'm just asking, but since there is a >>250<< under the toplever, does that indicate it to be a Modell Nr. 250?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

202 = 1931-40
250 = 1931-40
214 = 1931-36

I think we have in in the right decade anyway. I would assume that Raimey is right about it being 250 though

Salut Raimey,
La première chose qui me vient à l'esprit est que cette arme a été montée avec des pièces de rebuts de la Manufacture d'armes de Saint Etienne.
Il n'y a aucun marquage MF sur cette arme.
Sur ce lien, un Robust modèle 250 :
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Robust-250-item-7601306.html

Thanks fab500. I figure it was a cobbled together longarm. Did the Stéphanoise mechanics in St. Etienne also have what we called >>Lunchbox Guns<< where mechanics brought out parts in their lunchboxs and made guns at home?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

fab500 writes. "Hi Raimey,The first thing that comes to my mind is that this arm has ben built with with scrap parts from Manufrance. There are no markings "MF" on this gun. On this line (below) (an authentic) Robust model 250."

Tom was spot on in his commentary as was Raimey. Well done to all.

Fab, svp, comment c'appelle ce Manton levier de sécurité en Francais? Nous avons spéculé que le nom est quelque chose comme come ca:
"Fusil de chasse à percussion juxtaposé à chargement par la bouche avec levier de sécurité en dessous de la crosse anglaise."

"levier de sécurité en dessous de la crosse anglaise." Ca Marche?

Il semblerait que ce fait était aussi courant à Saint-Etienne. À la MF, cela allait encore plus loin. Lors de leurs inventaires périodiques, il manquait toujours quelques fusils.
Etienne MIMARD, dans une lettre ouverte à ses ouvriers, s'était plaint de cette situation.

Fab writes to Raimey re "lunchbox guns": "It seems that this was also going on in Saint-Étienne. At MF, it was above and beyond. During their periodic inventories they were always missing several guns. Etienne MIMARD in an open letter to his workers complained about this situation."

Salut Argo,

"Fusil de chasse juxtaposé à percussion centrale et sécurité à la poignée". Voilà ce que l'on dit en langage courant en français.

Etant donné que c'est une percussion centrale, il n'est pas nécessaire d'écrire le mode de chargement.

Merci. Voila notre dictionnaire de Français-Anglais, English-French terminologie pour les armes de chasse et de tir sportif que nous avons cree il y a plusieurs année.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959

Salut,

Il y a quelques jours, j'ai fait une découverte sur ce type d'arme.
En 1923, la Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne crée sa filiale Manufacture Modèle d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne. Celle-ci a été créée pour la vente d'armes en gros aux armuriers. Les fusils vendus n'auront aucun marquage de la Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne.
D'après la photo des plats de canons, l'arme aurait été fabriquée entre 1926 (épreuve Manufrance) et 1931 (à partir de cette année, ce fusil sera estampillé "Costo" sous la bascule).
Le fusil 250, Manufacture Modèle d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne, est un modèle 20 Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne (période 1924/1931) ou bien un modèle 202 (période 1931/1939).
J'espère que vous parviendrez à comprendre ce que j'écris.

Merci pour ton information Fab, et comme d'habitude il est nouveau, complet and très interessant.

Here's a simple (non-academic) translation:

Salut,

Il y a quelques jours, j'ai fait une découverte sur ce type d'arme.
Several days ago I discovered this type of arm:

En 1923, la Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne crée sa filiale Manufacture Modèle d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne. Celle-ci a été créée pour la vente d'armes en gros aux armuriers. Les fusils vendus n'auront aucun marquage de la Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne.
In 1923 la Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne created a subsidiary "Manufacture Modèle d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne." This was created to sell arms wholesale to gun makers/gun marketers. The long-arms sold would have no markings from la Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne.

D'après la photo des plats de canons, l'arme aurait été fabriquée entre 1926 (épreuve Manufrance) et 1931 (à partir de cette année, ce fusil sera estampillé "Costo" sous la bascule).
Le fusil 250, Manufacture Modèle d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne, est un modèle 20 Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne (période 1924/1931) ou bien un modèle 202 (période 1931/1939).
From the photo of the barrel flats, the long-arm would have been made between 1926 (proved Manufrance) and 1931 (from this year the long-arm would be stamped "Costo" on the action). The arm "250" of "Manufacture Modèle d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne," is a model 20 Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne from the périod 1924/1931), or a model 202 (1931-1939)

J'espère que vous parviendrez à comprendre ce que j'écris.
I hope that you can understand what I've written.

Nous avons très bien compris Fab et merci comme d'habitude.

I thought I might note this here for our small band of Manufrance aficionados.

Poked my head into a small gun shop about 45 min from my home last week. Used inventory way down. Not much in the way of SxS. A beat Ithaca. An even worse German cape gun. And what’s that over there? A pristine, late 1920’s I think, Manufrance Ideal double rifle in 450 NE! Wood was a little rough from being uncared for for 60 years but the metal appeared perfect.

I doubt I will be headed to Africa any time soon so to buy it seemed a bit extravagant. But I was glad to handle it. Never thought I would see one in NA.

Nice CB. Well I am in Africa right now...but not a place to use that gun...unless camels are game. What was the price out of curiosity?

Wrong part of Africa Gene!

Asking was $8000 Canadian. currently that’s $6200 USD and I suspect that price could be chiseled down significantly.

would be a treat to see and handle....what was the weight of the gun? every ideal i've ever seen has been a light weight gun....can't wrap my head around something like that being possible for a big bore double rifle...

best regards,
tom

Of course it was an impromptu visit so I had neither a scale nor a tape measure. My 12 gauge 6R EE weights in at 6 pounds 13 oz with 29” barrels. And the stock is 14 1/4”.

The double rifle had an LOP of at least 14” and barrels of at least 27 1/2”. They were longer than I would have guessed. And I’m not sure but I doubt the overall weight of the rifle was more than two pounds heavier than mine. So I’m guessing in the 9 pound plus range. No extra reinforcement of the action to handle the loads. The Ideal action is incredibly strong in its normal form. The only extra were two straps running back from the action on either side providing a little extra support for the top and bottom tangs.

I would say it handled nicely but it’s only the second 450 NE SxS I’ve picked up so not much to compare it.

Anything like these?

https://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/french-ideal-sporting-gun-calibre-12/i3425099/

This from another site:

According to Ideal book (p. 14) the following were standard calibers offered:
1887 (start date of Ideals) until 1897: "500 Express" (I strongly believe this is 500bpe or nitro for black, author gives the following ballistics: 570meters per second, charge with 9 grams of large black powder)
1897 to 1908: "Caliber 50" (maybe 500NE?)
1909: 450NE, "375 English" (2 1/2"), and 303 British (as is shown in the catalogue scans above)
1910: added 405 WCF
1911: 450NE dropped and 8mm Lebel added
1914: outbreak of WWI and double rifle Ideal manufacture stopped
1925: Recommence of manufacture of double rifle Ideals, in 8mm Lebel, 450 NE.
1931: reintroduction of 405WCF
1937: 8mm Lebel replaced by "375 magnum" (I assume the flanged H&H).
1939: outbreak of WWII double rifle manufacturing stopped for the last time.

There were also custom orders for various calibers like: 8mm Lebel, 11mm Gras (the French service cartridge before the 8mm Lebel in the 1870s-80s), 6.5 Daudeteau, 11mm Werndl, 7.92 German, 6.5 Mannicher-Carcano, and 303 British.

https://www.pmulcahy.com/single-shot-double_sporting_rifles/french_ss-d_spr.htm

1910 Catalog:

I’ve got a few pics on my phone. And oops! According to my imperfect serial number listing this gun is more like 1906.That is a little at odds with what Gene posted regarding production date ranges for 450 NE but I would tend to go with Gene's information as this serial number listing is known to be off a bit. So we might call this a 1909 to 1911 gun. Here they are:

an amazing sight....thanks for letting us look over your shoulder....

Super! War trophy?

That was the story. The Ideal and the German cape gun came in together and apparently both were brought back together. Cape gun appeared to have been used and abused. The Ideal looks as though it sat in a cupboard for a very long time.

Salut,

Cette arme a l'air en très bon état.

On peut estimer sa fabrication entre 1910 et 1912.
Jusqu'en 1909, les Ideal Express sont montés avec des canons HERCULE 3 palmes. A partir de 1910, ils le sont avec des canons HERCULE 5 palmes. En 1913, la mention "EPROUVE FINI POUDRE PYROXYLEE" est supprimée.

Sur les canons ainsi que sur la bascule, la présence du poinçon "foudre" (apparu au banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne le 18 mars 1924 et qui désigne une arme éprouvée en état de livraison) reste un mystère pour moi.

Voila - a crude translation:

This gun seems to be in very good condition.

Until 1909 the Ideal Express were fitted with Hercules 3 palms barrels. Beginning in 1910 they were fitted with Hercules 5 palms. In 1913, the stamp "EPROVE FINI POUDRE PYROXYLEE" (Finished proof for pyroxylin powder) was eliminated.

The presence of the lightening bolt stamp on the barrels and on the action, (which appeared as a Saint-Etienne proof stamp on 18 March 1924, to designate an arm proofed in the state of delivery) remains a mystery for me.

(Merci Fab, recherche de l'excellence).

Hello All,

I don't know if the topic is still active, but it is quite interesting for me.

I have been looking for information on my father's gun for a long time. The gun is Saint Etienne Robust 222 12 gauge, with one rifled barrel, and the other smooth. There is a number under the lever 114511 and number 32-S on the bottom of the head.

Could someone help me by giving more information - for example, approximate year of production.

https://ibb.co/kyNpw0v

https://ibb.co/NmsSwhq

Thank you in advance!

Ivan

I'll start by posting the pictures of your Robust and will offer up that the model 222 was made from 1946 to 1980 per Myorkas' book. FAB500 might give more information.
-- Manufrance Robust
-- Double Proofed at the factory as a finished arm. This from Fab: after 1926 manufrance ceased using the customary saint etienne proof house, and ran their wares through an in-house facility.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Main=39635&Number=595336#Post595336
. . . . .- one arrow thru target = 850kilos = single proof
. . . . .- two arrows thru targets = 1100kilos = double proof
. . . . .- three arrows thru targets = 1300kilos = triple proof
-- Canon Frette - is the classic "stepped" or "sleeved" (In the sense that an artillery piece has "sleeved barrels") MF barrel.
-- "Hercules Steel"
-- "The rifled barrel" ("raye") probably has striations on the last few inches of the barrel: I believe it can spin a ball or act as a spreader for shot shells (barrel used for Becasse?) but will let others chime in.

Check out this line - which is perhaps the finest explanation on the entire internet of the French practice of shallow groove refiling in a shotgun barrel, its result on shot-shell patterning and on bullet/ball accuracy.
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587581&page=1







and by the way, I don't see a "222" but there is a "32-S" (1930-31)

my first question is this; ivan, why do you think this gun is a model 222? your second photograph clearly shows that the bottom of the action is marked as a model 32-S....two digit model numbers were not used past 1931. the production lists in myorka's book show that model 32-S was made in only one year - 1930. it was the highest grade robust made that year.

second question; in your first photograph you show the barrel flats, can you give use a picture of the markings on the tubes and ribs - forward of the flats? there should be some markings present there, often including a stamping of the model number on the bottom rib, between the tubes. at least on ideals, this seems to me to be a connecting mark that ties the barrel set to the action...

now, i will observe a conflict between the photos #1 and #2; the action is marked with the S - which indicates "supra"...while the barrel flats show the right tube marked "raye". manu provided two different types of rifling - invariably in the right tube(?) supra was a cylinder bore tube, with a very slow and shallow rifling that extends the entire length of the barrel...while raye was a short (2 or 3 inch) portion of rifling at the muzzle, that was smaller diameter than the remainder of the tube - in other words, functioned as both rifling and choke. a quick look down the right tube will reveal which type of rifling is present.

these two markings, appearing to conflict with each other, make me wonder if the barrels are original to the action...if the barrel set is marked model 222, they are post 1931. and i have no doubt that the action was proofed in 1930. serial numbers might be helpful, but my only robust (a #226) does not show a s.n. on the action - only the barrel set....on the bottom rib, near the model number.

please do a bit of research, and if possible give us a additional photo or two.

best regards,

tom

The Raye mark on the right barrel means it is rifled to create a larger shot pattern typically for shooting woodcock.

Ivan, we could use pictures of the whole gun. Thanks.

(I visited Sofia a number of times from 1993 to 2005 and have Bulgarian friends whom I've not seen for many years).

Looking at the 1930? - (date not mentioned) pamphlet forward by Buckstik, it looks like "rayé" and "SUPRA" are identical - whether the ad refers to the long twist rifling or the last 6" twist choke is not clear (but the sketch favors the former):

Cela nous a conduits a la création de nos canons rayés “SUPRA”. (for translation see above):

I have a Verney-Carron catalog from 1999 which shows that they were still producing an OU "Grand Becassier" model (We'd likely call it a woodcock special, but it sounds better in French.) There were two different versions, both 12ga with 61 cm barrels. VC offered a choice of either a lower barrel with the spreader rifling or cylinder. The upper barrel came with two choke tubes: Either cylinder or half choke. Very interesting. A lot of people are confused when they see the rifling and assume it's a slug barrel.

Verney are still making them.

https://www.verney-carron.com/sagittaire-becassier-classique

And RFM offer a side-by-side:

https://www.rfmarmi.it/en/product/becassier-zeus-becassier-zeus-s-77

the final picture of the zeus - a back lit close-up look into the bores - appears to be a much faster twist than that in the m-f supra barrel....really going to give things a whirl.

the supra barrel turns less than a full revolution in the 70cm barrel length. it would seem likely that the faster the twist, the more pronounced the dispersal of shot would be....and it also occurs to me that there would likely be some difference between a shell built with typical one piece plastic wads, and one using a built-up wad column with shot charge bearing directly on the barrel walls.

best regards,
tom

Thank you guys for your quick responses and interest. To be honest I don't know why we thought it was a model 222 - probably because there is the number under the top lever 222 114511.
Pictures of the barrels

https://ibb.co/j3b2DHK

And

https://ibb.co/rwLRw7L

https://ibb.co/5BcDrpc

And the how gun

https://ibb.co/ysLLH78

https://ibb.co/tYJzL3g

https://ibb.co/JQKgtWR

https://ibb.co/2Y9MrbC

I just want to clarify that the rifle has original parts but has undergone external upgrades. My old man is a geek on this subject and has a lot of free time. He has been working on guns for over 35 years.
I guess for some it is unacceptable to violate the authenticity but there are different people with different taste .

Again thank you for the support guys!

first thing i would say is that,.. beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and your father is within his rights to create what he wishes, in that regard. while the gun might not be pleasing to all eyes, there is little question that he has a great deal of skill, and has lavished much time and effort onto this project.

now i will make some observations that (might) pertain to the age, and origins of the gun: argo has amended his original posting of dates and model numbers, and now shows listings for 1930 production. his list shows several grades above 32-S, whereas, the document that i have at hand does not. we are only privileged to see an extremely small number of truly high grade m-f guns in the usa. some of those few i have seen photographed, are quite elaborately finished. therefore it is difficult to know to what degree this gun has been customized.

the document that i have, shows production of robusts from 1913, through 1980, and total production of somewhere around 950,000 guns. there is no known listing that will correlate serial numbers with the year of production (an advantage that we have with m-f ideal models). one of the few "handles" we can use to estimate times of production are, 1) the changing of model designations in 1931, and 2) the changing of production offerings following the second world war. both of those transitions are shown within argo's listing on page 6.

the thing that has me puzzled, is how the gun could have both pre-war, and post-war model designations present. the serial number is clearly shown on the forearm lug, and you state that it is repeated on the top strap under the lever. my #226 is numbered 184688, and that model was only cataloged from 1932 until production ceased in 1940....i have always assumed it to be mid to late 1930's. your gun would then predate mine, by some 70,000 - and yet, it has a post-war model number??

at this point, perhaps fab500, canvasback, or some other person can step in and provide additional insights....and i will be as interested in new information as you are!

best regards,

tom

I can't offer much more either. I'd be inclined to think with the SN that it is a 32-S or at least the stock is. I will post the pictures so everyone can see them without clicking. It's clear that Ivan's Pop sure loves that gun.



The barrels have that long, slow, full barrel twist that Tom discussed and not the six inches of twist "choke". Do the barrels look slightly pitted?








I once was staying at a small hotel in Sofia in about 1999 or 2000 - up on the mountain, winter time with snow on the ground. At a bar in the late afternoon were two Brits, a Bulgarian girl and a couple of other foreigners. They were talking about a plot to assassinate Slobodan Milošević in Serbia. It was an elaborate scheme and included crossing a 400 m deep gulch on a rope to get into a castle. I was privately making notes to give to the embassy security officer when I realized they were making a movie.

As they described the planned night-time assault I was picturing a print I have of the Castle of Souli in Epirus. .

Nice of Tom to think of me. Not sure I can add much to the discussion, although I have been following ti with interest. IMHO it's clear it was built as a Model 32-S. What happened subsequent to original manufacture is anybody's guess.

Having said that, my disclaimer is that I spend most of my MF energy looking into Ideals and have only a passing knowledge of Rubusts.

Positively fascinating! I can't imagine a better way to plot the assassination of a head of state than openly discussing the top secret plans within earshot of a stranger with a notebook. The scene described is quite vivid, but we are left wondering if the Bulgarian chick looked like a hot girl in a James Bond film, or like a female Eastern Bloc weight lifter on anabolic steroids?

one very specific reason i hope to see this guns dom established, is the fact that it would set a milepost to help determine the age of robusts....if it is a 32-S - that was only made in 1930, then we could associate that 114,551 serial number with the year 1930.

as it is the only solid date that can be depended on with robusts, is 1931 - when guns were marked with both earlier and later designations.

best regards,

tom

Looking up old posts It looks like Robust Model 32 had serial numbers ranging from at least 98,142 to at least 115,213 per below over the course of one to two years 1930-31; So 114551 is in the ballpark for a 1930-31 Robust 32-S: Perhaps a separate line should be create for dating Robusts.

A. Comment from Billwolfe (2013):
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=346518
Some new info on dates that might help with my Robust. A discussion in another forum: http://www.gournetusa.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=52 establishes a date for a gun quite close to mine: 166216 . . .The 166 gun is dated on the butt stock February 5, 1932.

(I don't think this date on the butt stock can be definitive; the stock could well have been made years before it were mated to the barrels and action; however, it is absolutely possible for Manufrance to have made 50,000 guns between January 1930 and January 1932 (between 114000 and 166000) - even probable).

B. Comment on dating Robusts from 2013 (which I have no way of verifying):
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/help-me-date-this-manufrance-robust-no-6.259500/
If you remove the butt stock recoil pad or plate the date of manufacture will be stamped on the end of the wood stock...

C. SN 98,142: Robust Model 32: This is from an old forum post - with classic Saint-Etienne proof marks on the barrel tubes and in-house Manufrance proof marks on the barrel flats and action.
https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/manufrance-robust-no-2.223725/
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/robust-no-32-16-ga-value-and-age.269622/


D. Buckstix's Robust 32-ES. . .SN not mentioned. It would be interesting to have Buckstix's gun SN for comparison (I've sent him a PM).
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587568&page=1


E. SN 114214: Robust Model 32 on Naturabuy: SN 114214:
https://www.naturabuy.fr/BEAU-ROBUST-MANUFRANCE-MOD-32-CAL16-cham-67-item-10552186.html


F. SN 115213: Robust Model 32 on Naturabuy: SN 115213.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Manufrance-Robust-n-32-item-9536097.html

SN 46,123: Robust Model 1 (1913-1924)
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/im-curious-about-my-robust-shotgun.430707/

I really think that constructing a serial number graph for at least early Robusts should not be difficult with the internet.