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Posted By: spring Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 01:19 PM
I've read where an automatic safety is nice in that it actually gives a gun owner the option to have their gun be automatic or not since the safety switch's automatic action can be disconnected or left as designed. Out of curiosity, have you seen automatic safeties changed much? Is such an adjustment considered heresy on a nice English gun?
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 02:19 PM
I do not like them at all. I do not like to depend on them, for my safety, to function properly. I can put them on if needed. Plus in rapid field shooting they do slow me down. No safety on a gun used for clay's will last forever. I can see a heavy clay's gun being shot 10,000 times a year. I have shot some more than that much. To me they are an unnecessary wear point. As to removing them that is a personal thing. If you do so in a way that can be reversed then to me there is no reason not to do so if you want.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 02:27 PM
I think they are great on a hunting gun, but the worst thing ever on a competition gun.
Posted By: gil russell Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 02:53 PM
I used to hunt with a guy who bemoaned having to put a safety on between points/ covies and I suspect often didn't bother. Now a former hunting partner, still a friend. But on a gun used for skeet, clays etc auto safe is a total PIA. There are enough things to think about before calling for the bird. Gil
Posted By: Lawrence Kotchek Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 03:09 PM
I hate them. If I like a gun I will buy it anyway but its a point of negotiation for me. On clays they are a lost bird occasionally and hunting I want to know I put the gun on safe so I end up checking anyway. A safety is a mechanical devise that WILL fail, use the one between your ears, hopefully it is more reliable and trust worthy
Posted By: crs Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 05:38 PM
I agree with Gil.
A dozen hunting shotguns in my family and all have auto safeties.
I do not shoot competition clays, so do not care about that.

One of my hunting Parkers is over 100 years old and the safety still works.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 05:49 PM
By definition a 'competition' gun has no auto-safety. Many have no safety at all.

As far as seeing the auto safety 'changed much', no. Typically field guns are used in the field where the auto safety very much belongs.

Some guys do find a nice field gun they more often use on targets and have the auto feature disabled.

Disabling the auto feature is not all that common and far from universal. It's not a one way street to do this.

I own a gun that had the auto safety re-enabled by the previous owner.

There's no right or wrong, it's a personal thing and I don't much care either way.

You should be able to safely and correctly use any type of gun or safety system.
Posted By: Researcher Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 06:08 PM
I've shot so many rounds of skeet with my Fox-Sterlingworth Skeet & Upland Game Gun that I never even notice. I can switch to a Superposed or Model 21 Skeet Gun and likewise never notice. I much prefer the automatic safety for hunting.

My Father bitched all the time about the manual safety on the 20-gauge Winchester Model 101 I brought him from Japan in 1972, but he carried it enough to wear much of the bluing off it in the last 17 years he hunted. When he once in a while missed a bird with it, we would here "I'd ah got that with my old Remington!!" Old Remington being an 1896 vintage AE-Grade Hammerless Double.
Posted By: Toby Barclay Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 06:25 PM
All my guns are, and always have been, auto safety and I really don't see the problem. I have shot many 1000's of clays and never been caught out with the safety on. Mind you, a stiff safety can be a pain on a cold day with frozen fingers! I have very rarely come across a safety that has been disabled but then I am totally focused on British sporting shotguns. No surprise there then! The only one was on a Wm Powell SLE with non-functioning hammers (yes, non-functioning hammers as original spec!) which had had the auto safety pushrod filed off (as original). Seeing as the gun would most likely be used by someone who was used to an auto-safety, I reinstated the auto push rod. It would be the work of a hour or less to make it non-auto again so I thought this was the safest option. To reinstate an auto-safety on most British shotguns is pretty simple AS LONG AS THE WHOLE PUSHROD MECHANISM HASN'T BEEN RIPPED OUT! One can just silver solder a new piece on the end where it has been cut off. For information the link to the Powell is http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/Powell%2012%20SLE%209622/Powell%2012%20SLE%209622%20Details.htm
Posted By: KDGJ Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 07:01 PM
Toby,

Interesting gun. I can't imagine why someone would put non-functioning hammers on a gun. It looks like they don't even move.

Ken
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 07:23 PM
So much fanfare is made over automatic safeties. I don't care for them and can't see why some think they are so important. If they are, why weren't they designed on semi-autos and pumps? And, don't tell me it couldn't be done.
Posted By: Toby Barclay Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 07:51 PM
Quite correct, don't move at all. The whole spec says it was intended for someone who was a died in the wool hammergun user who fancied the idea of an ejector. It was ordered by a corporate body for someone who doesn't appear to have been of any obvious significance, certainly not an officer of the company, more likely an important customer. It was also specified to have a knob on the t'guard like a Jones underlever but that bit apparently got cancelled! It would be great to know the story behind it but we will probably never know. All the alterations were apparently done on a completed SLE, there are strike marks in the internal colour hardening where the hammer fixings were struck off and the safety push rod still had the file marks across its end!
Posted By: oskar Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 10:56 PM
Auto safeties are something that should never have been invented, I have disconnected all but my BRNO o/u just because I haven't figured out how to do it. I don't know of a single pump or semi-auto with an automatic safety.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Automatic safeties - 06/05/21 11:04 PM
I can take them or leave them, I made it a habit years ago to not depend on them. If a gun has an auto safety I pull it back anyway and always push it forward to fire.
Mike
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 08:07 AM
Almost all safeties I have seen block trigger movement, not the sears. A cocked gun on "safe" is still a potential danger and can go off, ie after a knock or fall, despite being on "safe".

As for auto safeties, I can see their usefulness in shooting with a pair of guns and a loader. They protect from a fumbled gun change, and that is about it.

It is interesting to note that one of the most conscientious hunters ever, Aldo Leopold, ordered his SXS with no safety.

So auto or manual, it is about the same usefulness, which is close to nil.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 10:54 AM
In NSCA sporting clays competition a shooter is allowed three gun malfunctions, per round of 100, before the scorer is to call a target a lost bird.

Think about it for a minute. If your brain can be trained to push the safety off when needed, it can just as easily be trained to put it back on safe after the shot. It can also be trained to keep the trigger finger outside the triggerguard, resting alongside the bow, until the second before the shot. And, that is a proper safety, IMO.
Posted By: eightbore Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 12:38 PM
It's been a while since I read the NSCA rulebook, but is forgetting to take a gun off safe an allowable malfunction? I believe in NSSA, the shooter is required to do what is proper by the instruction book, then, if the gun doesn't go off, it's an allowable malfunction. Leaving the gun on safe is a lost bird. I have automatic safeties, non automatic safeties, and no safeties. I don't shoot in competition with automatic safeties. They are a lost bird waiting to happen.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 01:10 PM
[quote=Shotgunjones]By definition a 'competition' gun has no auto-safety. Many have no safety at all.

Agreed, however, at some of the SxS shoots, people gravitate towards and shoot their hunting guns. I went to the Great Northern in WI a few years ago thinking it was a vintage like shoot. Dummy me brought a Lancaster wrist breaker with an automatic safety and Damascus barrels to shoot. Little did I know the real competitors would be shooting tricked out competition Model 21’s and Browning BSS guns. Ignorance is bliss, live and learn.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 04:02 PM
I have a hammer duck gun with a somewhat redundant manual safety. Sometimes I have the hammers back while in the blind and the safety on. It still scares the fool out of me to see it leaned up on the front of the blind with hammers back. If others comment on it, I point out that the 'hammer' is back and the safety on with their pump or automatic; just like my gun but they can't see their hammer because it is inside. I usually end up shooting the gun with safety off and cock the hammers as I pull up to shoot...Geo
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 04:23 PM
I’m sure not in love with them, and have missed a bird or two when I reloaded my gun and figured, in the heat of the moment, the safety was where I left it, only to discover it wasn’t. I have disabled one or two of them, over the years.
But, I wouldn’t reject an otherwise nice gun that had one.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: John E Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 04:45 PM
... THREE position safeties.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Automatic safeties - 06/06/21 07:57 PM
I really really hate three position safeties. I had the ones on my L.C. Smith doubles converted to two position. I'd spend half a dove shoot pulling the safety back then pushing it back to the safe position...Geo
Posted By: Walter C. Snyder Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 12:07 AM
I like 3 position safeties. Disengage for target games-mostly live pigeon shooting in that day- Ithaca's three position worked normally as an automatic safety unless you moved it to the third position to disengage the auto feature. Ithaca abandoned the 3 position trigger circa 1913. I have removed the auto safety link on the two trigger NIDs I use for clay games. The single trigger NIDs allow the shooter to select either barrel OR a safe position. I guess it is all in what one is comfortable with doing. As mentioned in an earlier post, the safe position usually only blocks the triggers. A jar or drop will likely fire the gun. I once (and only once) went dove shooting with a fellow who liked to carry his shot gun holding it with both arms behind his neck. Often the barrel was pointing to me and my fellows. When question about his carelessness he said "don't worry it is on safe."
So how important is to safe gun handling just to have that sliding button to point to 'safe?'
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by eightbore
It's been a while since I read the NSCA rulebook, but is forgetting to take a gun off safe an allowable malfunction? I believe in NSSA, the shooter is required to do what is proper by the instruction book, then, if the gun doesn't go off, it's an allowable malfunction. Leaving the gun on safe is a lost bird. I have automatic safeties, non automatic safeties, and no safeties. I don't shoot in competition with automatic safeties. They are a lost bird waiting to happen.

No, Bill. Forgetting to take the safety off is not an allowable gun malfunction. It is, however, a brain malfunction, which will get you a "0" on that bird on your scorecard, and rightly so IMO.
Posted By: keith Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
So much fanfare is made over automatic safeties. I don't care for them and can't see why some think they are so important. If they are, why weren't they designed on semi-autos and pumps? And, don't tell me it couldn't be done.

If manufacturers put automatic safeties on pumps and semi-autos, the safety would engage after every cycle of the action. Nobody would want to have to disengage the safety between every shot. That would nullify the biggest reason people buy them. It would be less desirable than a fart in church.

I don't mind automatic safeties a bit. If you think about it, there are quite a number of safety mechanisms shooters have to deal with and quickly adapt to. Revolvers and single shots may have nothing. Flintlocks, percussion guns, and hammer guns rely upon half-cock. Pumps and semi-autos typically have the trigger block pushbutton in the trigger guard. Lever actions are made with or without hammer block safeties. What looks like a tang safety on a drilling may be the selector for the rifle barrel, which also raises the rear sight. Bolt rifles have several types too. The only real problem with any of them is when a shooter relies upon them as a substitute for safe gun handling.
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 10:23 AM
Making safe, in armed forces around the world, means making sure there is no ammo in the gun and the hammer is down.

The nearest equivalent device in civilian terms is the German cocking safety, where pushing it forward compresses the main springs and pulling it back relaxes the springs. Almost all other safeties block trigger movement, leaving the hammers cocked.

Any system that blocks the triggers but leaves the main springs compressed is not a safety. In that context the word "safe" on a gun is a bit of a fraud. With hammers cocked it definitely isn't "safe" no matter what the button says.

Some people, including some very experienced hunters, think that putting a gun on "safe" uncocks the hammers. Renowned man eating tiger hunter Corbett is one of these. He writes how on one of his hunts his gun was on safe, for he "never carried a cocked gun", the gun in question being a boxlock SXS rifle that automatically self cocks on opening.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by keith
If manufacturers put automatic safeties on pumps and semi-autos, the safety would engage after every cycle of the action. Nobody would want to have to disengage the safety between every shot.

JMO keith, but no way can I believe that Jonathan Browning could not have designed an automatic safety that would cycle to "SAFE" when the last round was ejected. I believe that it just wasn't an important issue for him. No more important then than it is today.

I'm in the camp that feels the only true safety is between the ears, ingrained training to put the gun on safe when needed.

Best to you.
Posted By: eightbore Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 02:46 PM
And that is precisely why I prefer not to rely on the automatic safety to render my gun "safe".
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 02:56 PM
I have a huge aversion to them & one even finds them on hammerguns......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Automatic safeties - 06/07/21 03:00 PM
I have posted this prior I believe, but I have a long time hunting buddy that use to use a Remington 1100 for waterfowl, as that was all we could afford. I believe it was in the 1980s and they were hunting in light mist that turned to sleet & worse. He had attempted to take a final shot @ a duck for departing but something in the action had frozen. He put the >>Safety<< on >>Safe<<. But later it was revealed that the scear had slipped past the juncture. So when he laid it in the floor of the Ford with the heater running, it went off putting a bulge in the passenger 1/4 panel or foot area, saving the life of a hunter that was taking off his waders on the other side.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: KenA Re: Automatic safeties - 06/12/21 11:37 PM
I have three doubles with automatic safeties and one with manual. I enjoy each of them and rarely have a problem remembering which I'm using. The manual safety is especially nice on a Ruffed Grouse covey where I've fired both barrels and I reload quickly and remount for a third shot. A third shot might happen a couple of times a season, but it's nice to be able to do it quickly.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Automatic safeties - 06/13/21 01:47 AM
Never had a problem using a gun with an automatic safety.
Posted By: Tom Findrick Re: Automatic safeties - 06/13/21 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
In NSCA sporting clays competition a shooter is allowed three gun malfunctions, per round of 100, before the scorer is to call a target a lost bird.

Think about it for a minute. If your brain can be trained to push the safety off when needed, it can just as easily be trained to put it back on safe after the shot. It can also be trained to keep the trigger finger outside the triggerguard, resting alongside the bow, until the second before the shot. And, that is a proper safety, IMO.
[quote=Stanton Hillis]In NSCA sporting clays competition a shooter is allowed three gun malfunctions, per round of 100, before the scorer is to call a target a lost bird.

Yep.
I have always gone on-safe with ARs and 1911s after the shot or reload; I do the same with break-open guns.
If not in the act of firing, safety “on”. I’m hardwired to it and it’s automatic.
Posted By: PALUNC Re: Automatic safeties - 06/13/21 09:12 PM
I recently purchased a Rizzini RB 28 bore and was surprised to see it had a non automatic safety. I was told by a guy at the club that is common on most O/U. Really?
Posted By: Tom Findrick Re: Automatic safeties - 06/13/21 09:21 PM
Mike, my two Browning Citori OUs and my Winchester 101 have manual safeties.
I think Beretta OUs generally have auto safeties.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: Automatic safeties - 06/13/21 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Tom Findrick
Mike, my two Browning Citori OUs and my Winchester 101 have manual safeties.
I think Beretta OUs generally have auto safeties.

Beretta O/U field guns have auto safeties.

Beretta O/U target guns have manual safeties.

The 680 series guns at least are convertible either way. The factory parts kit is the best way to do it.
Posted By: PALUNC Re: Automatic safeties - 06/13/21 11:42 PM
Personally I find that kind of un-safe not being automatic. I have shot this little 28 bore at clays. I have no problem engaging the safety when I need to pull the trigger. I always heard from the sporting crowd that automatic safety was an issue as they made them miss a few target at the stand.
Years ago I was shooting my brother's Perazzi and when I was finished I put the safety back on. At the next station he did not check it and and was slow getting on the target. Boy did I get a mouth full!
Posted By: eightbore Re: Automatic safeties - 06/15/21 01:56 AM
The Shooting Sportsman, July-August issue arrived today. Ralph Stuart let himself be roped into making some ridiculous statements about automatic safeties after even more ridiculous statements were made by a letter writer who seems to be addressing readers who fired their first shots yesterday.
Posted By: eightbore Re: Automatic safeties - 06/15/21 01:59 AM
"Kind of unsafe being not being automatic"? How many tens of millions of repeating shotguns are "kind of unsafe"? Maybe more than a few of us just fired our first shots yesterday. I would prefer that shooters familiarize themselves with the safety device on the gun in hand. There being at least ten different safety devices available to us, what would be our excuse to not be comfortable operating the device on our gun being used that day?
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Automatic safeties - 06/15/21 08:32 AM
Aldo Leopold ordered his double with no safety at all. Maybe because he knew how guns work and did not trust any safety.
Posted By: spring Re: Automatic safeties - 06/15/21 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by KenA
I have three doubles with automatic safeties and one with manual. I enjoy each of them and rarely have a problem remembering which I'm using. The manual safety is especially nice on a Ruffed Grouse covey where I've fired both barrels and I reload quickly and remount for a third shot. A third shot might happen a couple of times a season, but it's nice to be able to do it quickly.

The potential need for a quick 3rd or 4th shot is what has me wondering if I need to go with manual on a 20 gauge gun I have coming. Adjusting the gun to one or the other is an easy request at the moment, a decision that can be reversed at a later date if so desired.

If I take the gun duck or dove hunting, not having an auto safety, just like other guns I have (semi-auto, over and under), should be more efficient. For quail hunting, an auto safety wouldn't be an issue. I need to let the fellow know today.....
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Automatic safeties - 06/15/21 12:46 PM
Quail hunting means walking. How much more safe is that with an auto safety as compared to manual?

An open gun when the dogs are not showing any indication of game is probably a lot safer.

The safety blocks the triggers, the gun on "safe" remains cocked and can go off if dropped or knocked hard enough. In short the safety is an illusion of safety.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 12:48 AM
I think a safety that only blocks the trigger is safer than no safety at all whether it is little more than an illusion or not. I certainly would NOT condone hunting with no safety switch whatsoever. Some hunters are safer than others. If you have hunted long enough and with enough individuals then you most certainly have inadvertently had a gun pointed at you. I clearly would prefer the safety to be ON in that circumstance even if only blocking the trigger. Intercepting safety Sears block an inadvertent fire should a gun be dropped or otherwise ‘jarred out of bent’. Many guns have an intercepting like mechanism even though not an intercepting sear, per se. A Browning O/U for example, has an extra notch in the tumbler meant to catch the tumbler with the sear IF the trigger has not been pulled and if jarred ‘out of bent’ even though a Browning has no actual intercepting safety sear like that found on 7-pin sidelock guns. Bottom line, a safety is safer than no safety at all imho.
Posted By: eightbore Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 07:41 AM
About 99% of hunters do not know whether their safety blocks the trigger or has an intercepting safety. It is of no consequence. The important thing, the only thing, is that the hunter understand the safety, automatic or non automatic, that is part of his gun. If someone likes an automatic safety, that is fine. As someone who occasionally shoots for money, I find an automatic safety a distraction and possibly a trail of tears. At a box bird shoot, a failure to fire, for any reason, is a lost bird. The same goes for an expensive hunt with few chances to score a kill. I use both types of safety, but prefer the non automatic.
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 09:03 AM
Hammer guns have no safety at all. Rebound hammer guns have a safety notch that stops the tumbler if the trigger is not pressed. Arguably they are safer than boxlocks.

As to guns being inadvertently pointed, that tends to confirm that a gun should only be closed when in active hunting phase, otherwise it is carried open. No trigger blocker can provide the safety of an open gun.

I have observed the behavior of hunters when they arrive on the field. After banging the car doors they open the trunk, take out and assemble their guns, load and chamber, engage the safety, and then they let out the dogs and head for the actual hunting spot. They walk a fair distance with chambered rounds, over rough ground, whilst trying to control dogs and chat to each other. Cannot fathom how their hunting enjoyment would be reduced if during this walking phase they carried an open gun!
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
Quail hunting means walking. How much more safe is that with an auto safety as compared to manual?

An open gun when the dogs are not showing any indication of game is probably a lot safer.

Doesn't carrying a gun broken open put undue stress on the hindge pin ?

I always thought an automatic safety is what made a SxS and O/Ur the safest guns.

Anytime I hunt with someone I keep a close eye on their gun handling. That includes a look at their safety anytime I'm given the chance.

You would be surprised how many times you can catch some people with their gun loaded and their safties off.

Automatic safeties were and are the best thing since sliced bread....

I look at it this way if you cant check your safety before each shot you're not really a very safe shooter.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 12:07 PM
My grandfather, uncles and father all taught me, at an early age, that the only safety you can trust when handing a firearm is the one located between your ears. ALL guns are loaded, and are to be treated with this in mind. Growing up, Dad never let me have a BB gun or a cowboy cap pistol-when he was growing up, one of his friends shot another boy in the eye playing cowboys and indians with their Daisy BB guns- thus paying the boy's membership dues in the Cyclops club. Nowadays we have the Hunter Safety program in MI for the lads starting out in the hunting-shooting activities-which is good, but good old common sense is still the best safety- "If a sportsman true you'd be, listen carefully my son to me-NEVER EVER let your gun, pointed be at ANYONE. That it may unloaded be, matters not the lest to me!"" RWTF
Posted By: eightbore Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 03:00 PM
"A look at their safeties anytime I'm given a chance". Give me a break. How about looking at their muzzles?
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 05:22 PM
Open guns stressing the hinge (cross) pin.... target shooters are obliged by the range rules (In Europe at least) to carry their guns open, closing only when ready to call for the clay. Their target guns do not show signs of premature wear.

Gun handling in the field is indicative, yes. Like when a hunter bends to deal with his dog retrieving and does so with a closed gun on safe, the muzzles pointing all over the place, one cartridge still live in the gun.

But he is on "safe" so his buddies are all protected.

More hair raising is the carrying of a cocked, loaded gun on a sling feeling OK because the little button indicates "safe".

Well it aint safe! A fall of a slung A5 killed a man in my area. Inertia is more powerful than we think, it can disengage a sear, and that is why the safety is an illusion.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by eightbore
"A look at their safeties anytime I'm given a chance". Give me a break. How about looking at their muzzles?

That's a given
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Automatic safeties - 06/16/21 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by eightbore
"A look at their safeties anytime I'm given a chance". Give me a break. How about looking at their muzzles?

That's a given
Originally Posted by Shotgunlover
Open guns stressing the hinge (cross) pin.... target shooters are obliged by the range rules (In Europe at least) to carry their guns open, closing only when ready to call for the clay. Their target guns do not show signs of premature wear.

Most in Europe carry their guns in slips or cases slung over their backs.
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Automatic safeties - 06/17/21 09:10 AM
I once got a repeater with an automatic safety. Not a pump, but rather a circa 1920 Mauser 98 sporter in 8mm. Fortunately a friend liked it and I gave him a generous discount he couldn't refuse. Otherweise not a bad rifle, with double set trigger, horn trigger guard & butt plate, some engraving, etc.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Automatic safeties - 06/17/21 12:08 PM
"Most in Europe carry their guns in slips or cases slung over their backs."

At a skeet range? The point was about wear to the hinge pin from carrying the gun open, which is the rule in shooting ranges.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Automatic safeties - 06/17/21 02:44 PM
Most all the videos I've watched of European shooters on sporting clays courses carry their guns in cases strung over their shoulders.
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