OK I'm a You Tube junkie and have my channels I like to watch. I watch a lot of the UK outdoor channels and the one I watched a video yesterday was " The Shooting Show". Now they have some great shooting videos and in particular there is this guy who is regularly on there and he does a lot of high pheasant and some pigeon shooting videos. Like me he loves a "P" gum. In fact he has a matched pair of MX12's he regularly shoots with. Well the other day I was watching him doing some pigeon shooting and he had just received a new matched pair of MX12's that he had ordered with help from Mario Perazzi himself.
He talked about the lead shot ban over in the UK and the use of steel shot. He had both new guns choked in at 40 thousand in both barrels. He said Mario said he could shoot anything he wanted through those guns.
I thought you could not use tight chokes with steel shot, am I crazy?
Oh and he had them shocked with a straight grain saying that it would help on muzzle flip and make the stock strong. Any thoughts on that?

would like to see him pattern those 40 choked barrels with say 4 or 2 or better yet bb steel.....

I recently interviewed Tom Roster on nontoxic shot for a couple articles in Pointing Dog Journal/Retriever Journal. Here's Tom's comment on steel shot in tight chokes:


"It is true that the more open the choke, the less likely there will be integral choke or choke tube expansion damage from hard shot types passing through them. But the fact is, if an integral choke or choke tube is made of proper steel with proper wall thickness--such as, for example, Beretta, Browning, and Remington factory chokes and many after-market choke tubes--hard shot types can successfully pass through choke constrictions tighter than modified without any choke expansion."

Palunc, in the UK,if the gun has been proofed for superior steel and carries the Fleur de lis stamp, it is safe to use any choke subject to normal proof load. Regards

Mr. Martin is correct regarding standard steel loads; limited to 400 m/sec or about 1,312 fps

This document (which may be old) specifies choke < .5mm = .020" and max. velocity < 430m/sec = about 1400 fps for High Performance Steel proof, for shot 4mm or >
https://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/ciptexts/decision-xxxii-45-0-en.pdf

This is from 2017
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=465245

This is dated 2020
https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1094678/GTA_factsheet_shootingnonlead_ver102.pdf
"‘Standard steel’ cartridges have been designed by manufacturers in association with proof authorities1that can be fired through any nitro-proved gun.They must have a cup wad to protect the barrel; they have a maximum shot size of 4; and they have to conform to the normal pressure limits of nitro proved guns.
Trials in 1991 using standard steel cartridges with light loads (24 grams) demonstrated that even light walled game guns of contemporary manufacture with 3/4 chokes showed no damage after firing 1000 rounds. Standard steel loads can be fired safely through light walled guns but there is a risk that in some circumstances a slight bulging at the choke neck can occur. The likelihood of such bulging is increased by heavy loads, large diameter shot and steep, tight chokes."
"High-performance steel cartridges have limits on what should be used. Shot sizes exceeding 4mm (BB and larger) should only be fired through a choke less than 0.5mm (half choke)."

They are trying to come out with an entire new group of steel loads which will be capable of use in even older 2 1/2” guns with fiber based wads. Velocity will limit the effective range but with some of the slow burning powders they are getting decent velocities. Either they develop these type loads or an entire group of guns become wall hangers. New guns are being built to use modern steel shells but until now old guns were regulated to lead or Bismuth shells. Bismuth is fairly expensive so they are looking for a cheaper alternative at reasonable pressures.

Eley have brought out a steel game cartridge suitable for 2 1/2" chambers but still caution against using in choke tighter than half and not in the softer Damascus type barrels. The wads used are bio-degradable. They look and act like plastic but are made of plant starch. They go to a snotty mush in water and safely disappear into the ground. Bio-Ammo is another maker of degradable steel cartridges as is Jocker. The move is not just away from lead but also from plastic waste in the environment. Most game shooting here is done with felt wads and some clay shoots don't allow plastic wads either. One clay ground I have been going to since the 1970's have never allowed plastic wads in all that time. It seems that quite a lot of research is underway here by the ammunition manufacturers to find an inexpensive round that can be safely used in older English guns. Lagopus…..

The opening post questions steel shot through tight choke. Modern high performance steel proofed guns, carrying the Fleur de lis mark, can use steel in any choke. The question about steel in older guns , without steel proof, is an entirely separate issue. Yes, lots of work being done and much more required. The shooting organisations in the UK have again done very little to protect the interests of gameshots. Regards

True on the latter point. BASC were saying 'No evidence, No change' but then changed this. I tackled someone from BASC on this point and was told it is because birds that ingest lead shot die unseen and are later consumed by scavengers. I then asked for the evidence for that but they could show none.

I have a Harrington & Richardson single 10 bore that is heavily choked and the barrels at the muzzle are very thick. Perhaps tome to conduct some experimentation! Most it could do is open the choke up a bit. Lagopus.….

A H&R single hot 10 bore-- "barrels at the muzzle???" wouldn't a single shot shotgun be "The barrel at the muzzle?' Just wonderin'?? RWTF

Lagopus, ignore rwtf, he /she/it is a bitter ignorant individual. Our UK shooting organisations have given very little support to membership with regards the continual onslaught against fieldsports. Very disappointing and the lead ban is just the latest nail. Regards

Very good question, I was think about TSS, and watched YouTube folks shot them through some very tight choked guns with aftermarket tubes

Each gun is an individual, and it's hard to make accurate generalizations about steel shot and full chokes. Interesting that the proof houses ignore the amount of choke when granting the flour de lis stamp.

Worth Matthewson, writer, duck hunter, and author of "Big December Canvasbacks" wrote that he was shooting a Field Grade L C Smith when steel shot came out. He agreed with the use of steel even before it was mandated, and began using it in the Smith, which was choked extra full in both barrels. He used it for years until taking it to a gunsmith to have some minor problem seen about, and was told he shouldn't be shooting steel in it, especially with such tight chokes. The Smith had digested, and burped, those steel loads for years with no discernible barrel issues!!

Beg to differ, my Limey/Scotland amigo. I have a keen eye for details, a common trait of snipers (your Lord Lovat comes to mind) and whenever I spot a technical error in print, I "proof-read" it to make it right. Blame that trait on my late Mother, a English teacher for 37 years, and a stickler for proper grammar and spelling of the English language, even in your part of the world, where you seem to add an extra vowel to certain words when not truly required, ie: honoUr, coloUr, well I am sure you get my drift. No bitterness intended, just a life-long trait, and on an open forum such as our host Mr. Weber provide us, well Sir, why not, why not indeed? In the immortal phrasing of the late fat cigar smoking Limey PM-- "An umbrella is an item that when raining, is then an item outside with which I shall not venture".. RWTF--and I am a dog Fox, not a vixen. And show me a noun that has not at least one vowel in its proper syntax or spelling.

Stanton Hollis, it is strange that choke is not taken into consideration during proof, but the Fleur de lis stamp is certainly given to guns regardless . It appears any choke is suitable if the gun passes proof. The latest Browning game gun, with the Fleur de lis and marked steel proof, comes complete with a full choke amongst the selection of screw in chokes. That is the over and under model.
Palunc, I am unable to add anything with regard the stock question.
rwtf,. You should have paid more attention, no requirement or sense in the extra question marks and no need for question marks after a statement. Sad,sad man.

PM Churchill's wartime speeches were censored by Intelligence officers to prevent breeches of secrecy. One officer had the temerity to emend a sentence that ended with a preposition, a correction that was outside the scope of his assignment. Churchill fumed, "This is arrant pedantry, up with which I shall not put."

Perhaps the purpose of proof testing is to assure the gun is safe to the shooter. Blown patterns may not be the concern of the proof house.

P.S. The letter "U" is a vowel, not a noun.

Given the way you write, that is the laugh of the day. Thank you.

The Mathewson anecdote is a perfect example of why you should consider the source (not the messenger, the source) before you believe anything in the papers or online.

I have personally seen, not just heard about, Beretta Mobil-Chokes marked IC and M expanded by steel shot to the point that they defeated a Brownell's 'stuck choke remover'. Permanent damage resulted to a modern gun (Italian proof house, etc). Beretta went to a tougher alloy and marked them 'SP'.

This from Beretta about their current production guns and chokes:

"We suggest that - when using Steel Shot - you only use choke tubes marked with the SP (Steel Proof) identification on the side and that you use the most open choke system possible – i.e. Cylinder / Improved Cylinder / or Modified. We DO NOT recommend use of Steel Shot in the X-Tra Full Turkey / Full / or Improved Modified choke tube."

Perazzi does now state that all their barrels are steel compatible as standard, so it varies with manufacturer and date of manufacture.

I would opine that an LC Smith choked F/F would stand no chance against steel shot loads, especially early steel shot loads.

Purdey has on their website a page detailing standard and superior steel proofing and their recommendations for various cartridge length and loads/choke configurations. Worth taking a look.

Here is a link to a current video by Countryside Alliance featuring Simon Reinhold from Holts discussing steel shot in modern guns

So...dont pay anymore attention to the BS the manufactures fed you for the last 40 years...but believe the BS they are feeding you now.....

The honest answer is do what you can afford.

Hint, Miroku has changed their “High pheasant” model to :
Changeable chokes
And,
Thick rubber recoil pad.

I get the inference they are adapting that model to not bulge from heavy steel loads. And hopefully not split as many well figured stocks.
It should be obvious in the dynamics of the new model.

It is a model that had incredible world wide appeal, and now is just another Browning multi choke gun.

I have broken many flush mount removeable chokes shooting steel 4’s and larger at ducks. Many, as in 6-8 screw in’s imp-cyl and tighter. They crack, and get hard to turn out.
Extended chokes with thicker walls and different alloys, never.

Bulged a few barrels along the way as well.

I am not going to feed larger steel through a shotgun I value.

There ARE fixed choke modern shotguns that can handle big steel pellets for high birds. Longthorne comes to mind. And it seems Perazzi as well.

But I think the days of high birds with the old “best” guns are soon done.

And it’s mostly driven by public outcry over lead in the food supply.

Not because of non-toxic shot mandates. There are other non-toxic shot alternatives that such guns can handle, present and future, some with better ballistic performance than lead. Those who can afford that type of shooting can well afford the increased ammunition cost.


The 'outcry' is from a very small minority, hardly 'public'. The question is highly debatable and science is lacking as to an actual lead risk.

try organizations, plays better in Peoria that your "spelling" of that word, RWTF

When there is no market for the game, the public will finish off shooting for sport.
There is no market left for lead shot game.
Shoots are already paying disposition fees.

Science and reason left that debate sometime ago.

Not saying I agree with any of it.
Just reporting the dire nature of the discussion.

Tungsten based pellets scour.
Bismuth/tin is less dense than lead. Doesn’t seem to have quite the smack as lead at the same ranges. (Anecdotally)

And of course, current availability of product worldwide makes everything more complicated.

Sure it's less than lead. Most non-toxics are. But it's still darn good. And, I remember using lead for ducks very well. Bismuth is a helluva lot better than steel, even the best steel loads, IMO.


You, and maybe somewhat less than 1% of the rest of American shooting sportsmen, are concerned with this. It does not apply to most of us Americans who hunt alone, or with a bud, on public or private land for a few game birds. No relevance at all. But, it sure seems hard for you not to make subtle mention of your forays to England or Scotland when you post. Just how many American shoots are paying "disposition fees", CZ?

The OP was about his watching UK shooting shows on YouTube, his noticing Gerwyn Jones mentioning very tight chokes for “High birds” while shooting steel shot through a new pair of Perazzi’s.
High birds being a specialized subset of UK driven shooting.

The program wasn’t about shooting in the US.

At an 8-1 ratio, Jones would be running 150-250, heavy, large steel shot, cartridges through the Perazzi’s chokes multiple days a season.
On a good Pigeon day, 400. Though the shots would be closer, so smaller pellets typically used.

Probably not wise with the family Purdey’s.



Many of the readers here will probably have watched the Holland Holland videos, (or read the articles in Shooting Sportsman) were they explained that they can leave extra material anywhere they wish in their new barrels, (and with greater concentricity) using their new barrel boring technology, but also that they can’t do anything about their old guns other than re-barrel them.

Leaving additional material in the barrels to accommodate changeable chokes changes handling dynamics.
Miroku abandoning their fixed choke barrels on their break through model in the face of steel shot requirements is a monumental concession.

I think the OP’s surprise? at the choke constriction mentioned was warranted.

Jones will be giving up something somewhere.

Sir, my friend Stan Hillis, Not Hollis. I call him Stan, you, being a Brit, no doubt prefer the more former Stanton. Whatever floats your boat. RWTF. In my lexicon, getting another man's name with both correct spelling and also in terms of actual address is the hallmark of good breeding, showing that man that you, indeed, respect him, by taking the time to both spell it properly, as well as correct pronunciation. RWTF

Hey Stan. I've been using steel shot in my 3 12 gauge M12's for 30 plus years- no damage to the muzzle area of each of these fine repeaters, none whatsoever. All are full choke, which prefer, as I enjoy "pillow-casing" decoying mallards and geese at 25 yards and closing, and a full choke will do that, assuming the proper lead and follow-through on the part of the gunner. RWTF

Truth is that if I could afford to shoot several driven shoots a year the cost of the better Bismuth ammo becomes unimportant. You pay several hundred pounds and you are not going to cry about 30-40 more pounds for a box of ammo when you might use two or three on a great day. Steel might be cheaper but premium steel is not that much cheaper and the cheap stuff is almost like what we use to use 30 years ago. Very range limited for many.

That’s really what you “enjoy”, shooting ducks with a full choke at 25 yards and closing, “pillow casing” them as you say? That’s what you enjoy is it? Absolutely destroying and ruining a game bird for your enjoyment.
You really are a straight up rambling dip s.h.I.t.
I see clowns like you in the marsh all the time, shoot a duck with a ultra tight choke at 20 yards and when the bird explodes, and made completely inedible, these same buffoons laugh and high five.
Wish you would take another long hiatus from the board, man. Your ramblings are getting to be a bit much.

I know a couple of people who continued to use their Remington 870's and Browning Superposed after steel shot became the norm for waterfowl. Worth Mathewson also writes about using steel, lots of steel, in a Browning O/U and in an LC Smith SxS with F and F chokes. None of these people report barrel damage. One 870 has been patterned with every size from #4 to T, and patterns best with T and #3 steel! I did not see the patterns, but I bet they were, well, not the best Full choke pattern I've seen...They kill birds, that I have witnessed. I've read on this site that a person experimenting with chokes found much improved patterns and percentages at about .018" for a 84% pattern! IMO, there is no reason to keep a full choke in a barrel used for steel shot.

That's good to know. What does steel do in a pure cylinder?

This post and your previous posts speak volumes and the insight provided comes as no surprise. How many nouns in the alphabet RWTF ? I notice that your Mother who you describe as “a (sic)English teacher” failed to highlight the difference between nouns and vowels and I would say is probably not the great stickler for proper grammar and spelling that you profess, or perhaps you just weren’t the brightest of pupils.
With that attention to detail I don’t think you are Lovat Scout material.

Lighten up Francis

OK, Konor--the vowels I learned in grammar school (Saint Adolphus) are: a, e, i, o, u.. Find me a noun (person, place or thing, if memory serves, that does NOT contain at least one vowel, if you can. No, not quite Lord Lovat caliber, and I don't drink Scotch whisky, not eat haggis or play the bagpipes either- My ancestry on one side is Belfast based green Irish, by the by. What does that have to do with your life on the other side of the pond, I might wonder. RWTF

MYRRH. Noun. A bitter , aromatic, transparent gum, exuded from the bark of an Arabian shrub. (Very often found with Gold and Frankincense). :-) Sorry; couldn't resist. Lagopus…..

Rhythm and Lynx are two I know of and a quick google gives Pygmy myth and hymn . The common denominator seems to be the letter y

With not much more effort you could head fringe shoot with a tight pattern, especially the geese and take home game for the table.
Pillow casing birds deliberately and repeatedly on any rough syndicates I’ve been involved in would result in you having to leave the field and your membership of the syndicate cancelled. I can’t think of anywhere in my experience where such behaviour would be tolerated.

I've not heard the term pillow-casing before. Would one of you who use the term provide an explanation. Thanks.

Harsh. Getting an English lesson from a Scotsman.


Fox, what you will probably hear is…


____________________________
Get tee fuhk!

Hoot Mon, Sir 3 incher. But what you fail to grasp in your diatribe are 2 salient factors: (1) I don't take home game for the table- I spend my off-season time, weather permitting, "pillow casing" barn pigeons and crows with those M12's and Trap loads, bum, belly, beak and bang I believe the mantra goes. Like the late Nash Buckingham espoused in his story "The Dove" "You've had about all the thrills shotgunning can afford when you blot out a high incoming dove and see him crumple up in mid-flight. I don't hunt upland birds anymore, so that is "off the table", as it were, and I am also reminded of words from the late Elmer Keith , who favored an Ithaca NID 10 bore for pheasants, as well as ducks: "You mean it kills them TOO DEAD?""-- We don't have syndicates here in the Colonies, and I have almost 100 farmer friends who give me open access to their posted properties, in exchange for my welding skills on their equipment, when needed. I pay no cash money to anyone to get hunting permission. I leave no litter, no spend shells, whether shotgun or rifle (woodchucks, coyotes, fox, etc. and never tell anyone at the DU banquets where I hunt and shoot, including pest birds in the off seasons. Oh, I dress the ducks and geese and give them to the farmer/land owner. The crows and pigeons go into the manure spreaders (turd hearses, shades of Angus McNab if you will)--I would love to be paired with George Digweed in a blind or hide and have a day of wood pigeon and crow shooting--probably will not happen though! RWTF

What the fuhk you on aboot?


____________________________
Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!

Oh I bet your farmer friends are just over-the-moon when you give them their clean & dressed “pillow cased” birds, all blood shot to shit and mangled, pre tenderized, eh?
You’re ridiculous.

I gave up plucking waterfowl years ago-as I only shoot male mallards and geese, I just filet out the breasts, cutting out any distressed meat, and then soaking the meat first in vinegar and water, then tell the farmer's lady to try marinading them in buttermilk, covered and kept in the fridge for 24 hrs. Never had a complaint from the cooks yet as to "pillow cased" birds--extra tenderizing perhaps?? RWTF

A good shot only hits them in the head....

Deep thoughts.....

I would never gift a pillow cased bird to anyone unless it was for their dog or ferret. Whole birds plucked and the pick of the bag only,definitely not parts of extra tenderised /mangled breasts. Perhaps the farmers lady is just too polite to complain.

"Perhaps the farmers lady----" OK, how about we try "Perhaps the farmer's lady is just too polite to complain?" Much better, ey wot? In my years of befriending farmers, with the goal of having unlimited permission to access their property, I have learned a few things-I'll take the time to share them here, perhaps you might learn a few things about how things are done in The Colonies-- (1) Leave things the way you see them when on a farmer's lands- if a gate is open, even with livestock around, it is open for a reason. (2) always leave the keys in your vehicle and leave it unlocked, in the event that it might have to be moved while you are afield. (3) if, in the off harvesting season, you are invited in for coffee, do so, and take your time in the socializing around the kitchen table- do NOT be in a rush to get out and into the fields with gun in hand-and be a good listener. (4) take time to learn about how crops and commodities are priced- milk is priced by the hundred weight, NOT by the gallon- keep up on going prices for feed, seed, fertilizers, diesel fuel, all the items that are critical to farm operations. (5)-- Never be a litterbug-- farms may look "messy" especially with livestock, more so than cash crop farms, but pick up All your empties- livestock, especially cattle, will pick up your empty shotgun shells and ingest them- which means a big Vet bill, and, most likely, a loss of your hunting/shooting permission there.

Looks to me like all that banging away would leave quite a few plastic wads. Not such a big deal for those of us who may be lucky enough to bag our 3 rooster pheasants in 80 acres of CRP where 3-5 wads don't amount to much. But in other fields, a lot of plastic wads could certainly look a lot like litter.

And you're not doing your mother the English teacher proud. While people buying shells these days may well spend a lot for them, they're all spent once they've been fired.

You’re certainly the master of the obvious RWTF. I can’t say that your homely advice on how to ingratiate yourself with farmers has been enlightening but then having worked on farms and coming from a rural area that shouldn’t come as any surprise. Also having grown up within the farming community I find just being myself seems sufficient to fit in.
One bit of advice I can pass on is Don’t be too impressed by people who constantly tell you who and what they are, it’s usually wishful thinking on their part.
I wouldn’t think that your superficial attempts to fit in with the farming community solely to gain something would overshadow your presentation of mangled parts of wildfowl , overshot at 25 yards with a full choke patterning shotgun , that surely only you would consider fit for the table. I don’t think that approach would work here, you would be considered a laughing stock. You might well try to impress with your pedantic use of basic English grammar but no farmer I know would give you the time of day, you would probably be known as the strange guy that mangles birds at point blank and thinks that it’s acceptable to gift them to people who are better placed to judge their value.
Just out of interest what load are you using for 25 yard wildfowl these days? I may want to quote you when I’m discussing the coming season with some local wildfowlers.
Are you interested in purchasing a ferret ? I could ask around ,it sounds like it wouldn’t be short of a feed at your house.

You'll have to take my word, Sir 3 incher- but in part thanks to a few constant factors, I have a season long average of 1&1/2 shells for male mallards, and 2 for geese- mainly pass shooting over water. Several factors come into play in that average: (1) off season practice with the same shotguns I use for waterfowling- 12 gauge Model 12 pumpguns (a favorite of the late Gough Thomas I believe)- crows, blackbirds,feral pigeons and the odd shitepoke- At almost 80, my days of putting out a load of decoys, wearing waders in rapid rivers, or laying on my aching back in a camo field bag are pretty much over. I use Kent 2&3/4" No. 4 steel 1&1/8 oz. for mallard and early season geese, later when the flight birds come down our flyway I use 1&1/4 ounce No. 4 steel. My average estimated kill zone is 30 yards and closing. Being a bit frugal, I had to waste shells. You will never have any way to verify this, you'll have to take my word, but one of many factors in my skill at pass shooting birds is the fact that I still have 20/20 distance vision, a real gift from God since all my working years involved welding- Ah yes, welding- you implied that I might have pandering my farmer friends to get permission to hunt and shoot their lands. I beg to differ, Sir. They are all friends, and I don't come to them empty handed. Maybe equipment vital to their farming and income is not used in Limeyland, but here, welding and machine repair go hand=in=hand with staying operational. I do this service for them in a manner of "paying my way"--and NOT taking them and their friendship for granted. RWTF

fOx you're average sounds higher than your pArtner Destry the Markethunter......

Thanks for taking the time to respond.We are still legally shooting lead inland here in Scotland so 1 and 5/8 oz number 3 lead or occasionally 1 and 7/8 oz number 2 Winchester buffered load for geese and 1 and 1/4 oz lead number 4 for mallard with 5s and 6s for the smaller wigeon and teal respectively. Evening flighting on inland ponds or rivers light loads of 6s in a 20 bore skeet gun.
I don’t know if Gough Thomas possessed a model 12 but I do remember him writing in the Shooting Times in the 1970s of its eumatic qualities as he called them. Geoffrey Boothroyd did possess a model 12 and enjoyed using it. I own a skeet model 12 with cutts and previously had a 20 bore ,ribless ,full choke ,short barrel. Unfortunately they are hard to source in the UK ,a decent one anyway, or I would have another 20 bore. I have met old wildfowlers like yourself on the shore ,nearing 80 and always saying it will be their last season out,the last one was toting an eight bore double barrel. I can only hope that I will be enjoying days afield when I reach your age.
Much like yourself I help out on the farm ,lambing in the sheds in late March early April and tending to lambs and ewes when they are transferred out to the field ,trimming feet ,dosing for worms and next week I will be helping at the clipping.
I bought a 10 bore Zephyr Honker single barrel in Holts last unsold lots sale. The barrel is perfect ,no pitting or marks ,the stock was awful so having only been delivered last week due to the Covid restrictions it is now being stained and oil finished. I also have an old Lyman 10 bore reloading kit to reload what little cartridges I will use so new ground for me. The weight is 8lb 9oz so I’m curious as to how much recoil I’m going to have to get used to.
Wildfowling and trout fishing can be great levellers and maybe I should remind myself a bit more often that more unites than divides those that take part.

Sounds like maybe George Digweed- what a great wingshot- and a Brit who prefers Italian made shotguns-- MX-8, the Holy Grail of "under and overs".. RWTF

Another knowledgeable and interesting poster who no longer participates here. Sad what a few degenerates have done to the board, though I will say that moderation has improved things dramatically.

It is sad....

To see you're still here degenerating.

I've been a member of this forum for only a short time but I've seen so much meaningless bickering it really has sucked the joy out of my experience. I just wanted to learn about steel shot. Good grief.

Definitely a couple of cancers on this board.