Hi - I recently inherited a SxS gun marked “Harrods Ltd, Brompton Rd, London” on the barrels, but no other makers markings. There’s absolutely zero information on the old Google other than one single forum reply which suggests Webley perhaps made them, but the design doesn’t match any that I can find from them, although does look similar to a W W Greener of the era.

It has London proof marks (1924-1956) not Birmingham but Harrods themselves have no records frustratingly, so I’m at complete loss and hoping someone on here may be able to enlighten me perhaps.

It’s serial no.15 - so even if I can just confirm when Harrods first started retailing firearms, I may be able to narrow down the year of manufacture, even if the maker may never be known…

ANY help or suggestions for further investigation would be amazing!

Well, the tubeset @ least has a Belgian origin.

http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/A3AC0D92-75DB-4F2B-8ABC-8486440D6949.jpeg
I don't know that the Brits used the 1/2 circle side-frame reinforcement

http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/ED2A6441-E203-4585-9C30-4EF08DEA56E9.jpeg


http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2F8594AE-6FC7-4C82-B79A-B184B6572415.jpeg


http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/BAF808E6-E12D-4F6A-9037-28A541985ACE.jpeg

http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/D6590B0B-DE50-4B4D-BA4B-4E89FF2DA4D0.jpeg
Interesting Monogram / Trademark on the standing breech




Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Can you post better image of the Belgian marks forward on the tubes? Also, the water-table.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I’ve seen W W Greener guns with the side frame 1/2 reinforcement - but they’re the only British make that I have…

http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/7838BF14-8FA7-4609-82BC-72E15BDE10A7.jpeg

http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/A1EC2B21-51EE-44C3-8ACB-2B60896B1E9C.jpeg
What is on the buttplate?


That double screw floorplate to me points to a triggerplate type action? Have you pulled the floorplate?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I haven’t yet - but I will! And post pics tomorrow 🤣👍

http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/7967BA77-F720-4E46-8AC5-EA5D35C59F4D.jpeg

With the info thus far, to me it seems to be a Continental Belgian platform that was imported & pushed thru the London proof facility.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar...k/a%20janssen%20fils%20et%20cie%20gb.htm

I had thought it might be a Janssen trademark or monogram but I couldn't make it work.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

This line might be interesting: there were questions about what sort of gun might have been in the case. The above might help answer that.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Board=1&main=47093&type=thread

It still might be interesting to write to Harrods and ask them about the source of their guns. It's probably in their records.

Interesting tid-bit of info there Argo44.




Too, something seems odd about the Belgian Controller's touchmark?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I’ve written to Harrod’s and they came back saying that no records survive and they can’t help 🥺

From that last Harrod's line, it looks like Calgary Bill also has a Harrod's 12 gauge SLE. Wonder if his has the same proof marks and stamps?

Pic of internals as suggested:

So with a little more digging into the Belgium and British proof marks:

The format of the Belgium Marks on the barrels span 1910-1924 and there is a "C" stamped on the action in two places, which donates 1924 as the manufacturing year.

The London proof marks span 1924-56 which would JUST also tie in for a 1924 date... But I've got no further along with a manufacturer...

The unusual logo (Possibly J and R in a circle) and the JW on the barrels are, I think, the only thing left to go on... I've been through the list of Belgium firearms companies that I can find on littlegun.be but not got any further at this point.

I wouldn't hold with the >>C<< datecode just yet. Can you post images of where you found it? I do not see the >>Perron<< on the longarm just yet, so I am unsure if it was finished >>in the white<< in Liège?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

http://www.exosphere.agency/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/782135D6-15AA-4B5B-9BD2-38522EB9AC5C.jpeg

Too, this may have been an exercise in futility as it is an Anson & Deeley Body Action. Any Belgian marks on the action anywhere?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The only marks on the action are the V with crown above (London mark) The word PATENT above that circular logo and then two "C"'s just above the prongs that stick into the foreend (I'm not very technical lol)

I'm guessing that may mean the barrels are possibly Belgium and the action British?

Just not sure. I can't yet get past that it could be a British action, but I am wrong quite often.

Those >>prongs<< are >>Cocking Dogs<<.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

Lots of good info here on a well maintained site.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I have seen Greener's w/ a 1/2 pipe side frame reinforcement. So do you own a W.W. Greener w/ a semi-circle side frame reinforcement? Could you post an image?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Not mine obviously... but the action looks very similar...




A quick Google shows loads similar from WW Greener

Actually Harrods do have a number of thier sales ledgers for guns they sold - I don't know if its necessarily a complete collection. They are stored in Central London in their main archives office. I have been into the building and gone through the ledgers myself.

However, it would be a major task trying to find an individual gun sale where a specific date is unknown.

Regards

AlanD

If the repository is where I think it is, it is difficult to get to in the >>Green Zone<<. One has to be truly focused on going to that location & that location only.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Greener


Harrod's Lunchbox Gun


See, I just don't see the side-frame reinforcement on the Greener. Too, the rear pin isn't visible, or not present, on the Harrod's.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Now I have seen a few Greener's w/ a 1/2 Pipe extension side-frame reinforcement.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Greener have written back to say that they never made any firearms for Harrods and all their guns are Birmingham proofed… so that confirms that then 🤣👍

Many years ago, I had a boxlock with the Harrod's name. When I enquired at their gun department, the fellow said he thought it could have come from Hollis, Bentley, and Playfair, but he wasn't sure and had no documentation. I'd guess , over the years, Harrod's had many suppliers for their guns.

Searching on Internet Gun Club indicates they have some serialization info. Posting on their forum will generate a response.

Good Luck

My Herrod's is #7673 and was probably made about WW1 era. It is a 12 gauge back action ejector with London proof. I see nothing to suggest that it is of Belgian manufacture.
If someone will volunteer, I will e-mail pics for posting.
Thanks everyone
Bill

Send them on & I'll gladly post them.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Lovely gun and in fine shape from the looks of it. Webley built I believe.

Just came across this post.

According to the published book British Gunmakers, Volume One - London, by Nigel Brown, pg. 47, "Harrods Stores Ltd. 87-105 Brompton Rd., was marked in the trade directories as being gunmakers only between 1898-1900. The probability is that the first of those dates is when it started its gun and ammunition department.....stopped selling guns c. 1968. Although advertised in the directories as gunmakers, Harrods did not in fact itself make guns but, as was common practise in such circumstances, had them made up to its specifications by the British gun trade or imported foreign weapons from their manufacturers." Pg. 113, "The company retains firearms registers covering the period 1920-54 approximately and a stock book which covers the sales of new and some second hand guns, rifles, pistols and revolvers between 1909 and 1929, but has no other firearms records. It seems that there was no in-house numbering system put on firearms retailed by Harrods and that the numbers on the individual weapons were those placed on them by the actual makers, who presumably so numbered them in accordance with their own system."

Harrods Stores Ltd. became Harrods Ltd. c. 1921. The gunmakers who produced firearms for Harrods, in 1921 -1927 was JT Hartwell, 1921-1922 was H. Soley & Co., 1924-1925 were C. Bowerman, The Midland Gun Co. and Rickarby & Palmer, Gunmaker in 1925-1927 was Bint & Co., 1926-1928 was Ward & Co., 1928 was Darlow (?).

Hope this is somewhat helpful.