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Posted By: Nitrah fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 02:21 AM
On one of my doubles the top screw, under the top lever, slowly works counter clockwise when shooting. It doesn't become loose but starts in that direction. I mentioned to a gunsmith, unfortunately he is a couple hours away, and he said it can be fixed by adding a very thin piece of wood , kind of like a shim. As he explained it the screw needs the tension it would have when tightened to keep it in place properly. Does this sound right and is it just a matter of adding a very thin piece right under the screw?
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 03:04 AM
I would suggest removing the screw and after cleaning the threads apply some blue Locktite to the threads and replace, tightening to where it is clocked. The blue Locktite is not permanent so the screw can be removed. I have little faith in the shim method. Under the head it might raise the screw enough to interfere with the closing of the top lever.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 03:09 AM
That “screw” is commonly referred to as a “breech pin”.

I wonder why this gunsmith didn’t recommend using a drop of blue loctite? That would probably be the first thing I’d try. The piece of wood or shim recommendation seems silly to me, because that pin threads into the trigger plate, the threads are at the bottom of the pin. That shimming method works well with a wood screw for tightening things up, but not for a machine screw.

Try a drop of loctite. If that doesn’t do the trick, look into having another breech pin fitted up.

Btw…tighten the pin to where it’s actually tight. Not where it’s “timed” correctly. If you want a pin that is both tight and timed correctly, then have a new one turned and fitted.
Posted By: Colonial Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 03:27 AM
The screw loosens, likely because it does not have the original amount of tension.
What happened? The wood likely shrank a tiny bit.
Is adding a shim under the trigger plate or top tang wrong??
I've done that---
Very dumb, I guess.....
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 10:48 AM
Does the gun have double triggers, or single? If a single, be very careful not to over tighten the screw, also (I believe) sometimes referred to as the hand pin.

I second the use of blue Loctite. Don't use the red anyplace you can't apply heat to get it to release.
Posted By: damascus Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 10:58 AM
To start Locktite is the perfect quick answer to this type of problem but there where days when Locktite was not available and there where other cures for this problem, some a little odd and others that can cause a sharp intake of breath. One of the best methods of re timing a screw I have ever found is some strands of coarse wire wool warped under the head and the screw is timed by removing or adding some strands. This works so well because the strands of wire wool act as a lock washer as well as adding depth keeping the screw in place. Adding Shellac to the screw thread and assembling acts like Locktite when it drys. Now for the sharp breath intake ones, place a piece of lead sheet on a hard surface next lay your screw on that next hit the screw lightly just enough to distort the thread on the hit side. In doing this the distorted threads will tighten the screw in the threaded hole it goes into. Last but not least Tin the thread with Solder this will increase the screw size and make the screw tight in the threaded hole. There are other methods like putting a length of copper wire in the hole before the screw. So Locktite really is an answer to a modern Engineers prayer's.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
Does the gun have double triggers, or single? If a single, be very careful not to over tighten the screw, also (I believe) sometimes referred to as the hand pin.

I second the use of blue Loctite. Don't use the red anyplace you can't apply heat to get it to release.

The hand pin is the pin that threads upward from the trigger plate into the rear of top tang. The hand pin head is usually hidden underneath the trigger guard tang, the end of the pin is filed flush with the top tang.

All of those pins should be tight. Those are the pins that hold your stock onto the gun. Loose breech and hand pins equal cracked stocks. I’ve never dealt with LC Smiths with HOT, so I don’t know about those, seems odd that you can’t tighten a pin down because it interferes with the operation of a trigger. What a quirk.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 01:16 PM
Adding the shim is a perfectly appropriate old time fix, but it goes under the tang, not the screw head. Blue Locktite is fine too, but it may not address shrinkage.
Mike
Posted By: L. Brown Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by LeFusil
That “screw” is commonly referred to as a “breech pin”.

I wonder why this gunsmith didn’t recommend using a drop of blue loctite? That would probably be the first thing I’d try. The piece of wood or shim recommendation seems silly to me, because that pin threads into the trigger plate, the threads are at the bottom of the pin. That shimming method works well with a wood screw for tightening things up, but not for a machine screw.

Try a drop of loctite. If that doesn’t do the trick, look into having another breech pin fitted up.

Btw…tighten the pin to where it’s actually tight. Not where it’s “timed” correctly. If you want a pin that is both tight and timed correctly, then have a new one turned and fitted.

I recall a gunsmith (I think Hugh Lomas) telling me that tight is more important than in proper alignment.
Posted By: Tamid Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 02:42 PM
Wondering why glass bedding screws hasn't been mentioned? I haven't bedded screws on a shotgun but I have done every bg game rifle I own when I bedded the actions. The screws tighten down to exactly the same place every time and I've never had them work loose. I've used it from a .338WinMag down to a .222Rem. and I've not seen any degrading of the glass from wear, recoil or other. I think it would stand up the repeated recoil of a shotgun.
Posted By: Nitrah Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 03:32 PM
it is a double trigger gun from 1905, so it wouldn't surprise me the wood has shrunk slightly. I knew the screws need to be tight to avoid stock cracks and thought the shim method sounded good, as it solves the timing issue and tightness, but wanted to hear others opinions. Thanks.
Posted By: builder Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 03:42 PM
Tamid, do you use a release compound on the screws?
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 04:07 PM
The clearances of the Lard designed HOT with the selector are an very close fit into the stock head. So snug that the main reason the HOT has a non-automatic top safety- no safe room for the pin that actuates the movement of the automatic safety when the gun is broken open. I had Brad Bachelder convert my 1933 era Ideal 12 LONGRANGE for the HOT back to the double triggers and automatic top safety I prefer- he also glass bedded the stock head. Very little chance of that "Elsie" doubling--and I only shoot 2&3/4" loads in it- superb turkey gun indeed.. RWTF
Posted By: keith Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Joe Wood
I would suggest removing the screw and after cleaning the threads apply some blue Locktite to the threads and replace, tightening to where it is clocked. The blue Locktite is not permanent so the screw can be removed. I have little faith in the shim method. Under the head it might raise the screw enough to interfere with the closing of the top lever.

Think about this bad advice...

The screw will look good being timed, but it won't be properly tightened. Loose stock screws permit the action to move under recoil. And eventually the wood cracks or splits.

The thin wood shim is a good solution for starters. And glass bedding may be advisable if things are really loose, or cracking of the wood has already started. But if having the screw slot timed perfectly under the top lever is important, it may take some trial and error for the proper shim thickness to get you there.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/01/21 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by LeFusil
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
Does the gun have double triggers, or single? If a single, be very careful not to over tighten the screw, also (I believe) sometimes referred to as the hand pin.

I second the use of blue Loctite. Don't use the red anyplace you can't apply heat to get it to release.

The hand pin is the pin that threads upward from the trigger plate into the rear of top tang. The hand pin head is usually hidden underneath the trigger guard tang, the end of the pin is filed flush with the top tang.

All of those pins should be tight. Those are the pins that hold your stock onto the gun. Loose breech and hand pins equal cracked stocks. I’ve never dealt with LC Smiths with HOT, so I don’t know about those, seems odd that you can’t tighten a pin down because it interferes with the operation of a trigger. What a quirk.

Thanks for the correction, Dustin. I admit to not using British gun making terminology enough to keep the names of various screws straight in my head.

HOTs can be very temperamental about how tight those screws are. I own two and have never had the first problem with either but do know of their tendencies to screw up when messed with by the untrained, or when certain screws are overtightened.
Posted By: tanky Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/02/21 03:37 AM
If it is just a little out of time you can use this method. Get some round stock the size of the screw head or a bit smaller. Measure the hole in the tang and turn a pilot that will fit the hole snug on the end of the round stock. Where the pilot meets the head diameter should be angled slightly like a counter sink, as in just a few degrees. You now have a punch. Lay the top of the tang on a substantial flat steel surface with a thin piece of lead between the tang and the steel. The lead will protect the finish and engraving. Have someone hold it on the steel backer and wack the inlet side of the hole with your punch. Start out light and try it for fit. If it is not enough a little more force on the hammer. You are trying to push the bottom of the hole up into the counter bore of the screw head and this will allow you to tighten the screw and time it and keep the wood to metal fit tight under the tang. The small amount to be pushed up should not affect how high the screw head sticks up above the tang surface that much. I've done this on out of time lock plate screws and bottom plate screws. How successful you are with this will depend on where the screw is making contact on the bottom of the hole.
Posted By: mc Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/03/21 12:36 AM
And if the case hardened tang breaks you are truly screwed I would tighten the screw and forget about it. it is lose from shrinking wood repair the problem don't make another one
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/03/21 02:59 AM
Before we go any further, was the screw tight when it was clocked?
Posted By: Tamid Re: fixing screw out of time? - 09/03/21 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by builder
Tamid, do you use a release compound on the screws?

Absolutely, its a must. For fine work I use the release with the kit and for an action I coat it with floor wax.
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